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Yangh · **06-11-2015, 01:55 PM**

(06-11-2015, 01:29 PM)Kyrrae Lminia Wrote: Oh, I just wanted to point out that as the quote in one of the first posts on this thread says, using battlefields to open Chakra is basically the 'shortcut' since it takes so long to open a chakra through normal discipline and focus. This is why a monk who has all 7 open chakra is so rare, since battlefields can only be used once every so long while (they never specify how long, just that it takes a long time for the aether there to resettle for a monk to use it again). And if you were to try and open all 7 chakra the traditional way, the Monk quests make it seem as if that would be very unlikely to be accomplished in the average person's lifetime.

However, just being in training to try and open *one* Chakra is enough to qualify one as a monk. For example, my main character is a monk of the Second Chakra. I'm pretty certain the amount of open Chakra points determines your base power level as a monk. It seems to me that the Monk Questline indicates this, but it's not spelled out.

Oh! thanks for the info.

Do you have any notion as to how long it would take someone to open up simply one chakra via training alone? Its an avenue I've considered except my character has never even attempted to do so.

He has Pugilism training from an old Ala Mhigan Monk (Whom he has no idea is a Monk, nor does he even know Monk's exist at all). He assumed this man, who was taken in by his tribe, was simply a very capable fist fighter of some sorts.

My character has innate ability as a Monk that he's completely unaware of so my real question is, training and focus aside, how likely is it for someone who is untrained but talented to stumble upon a place of power and open his fist gate without actually knowing how to or what is actually happening?

[EDIT] I love that diagram! XD

[EDIT again] The diagram suggests that chakra feed the mana pool which is then drawn upon to perform Monk feats. Is the mana pool used as a place to pull from or simply a stop off point before being re-purposed. I assume the latter as Monk skills don't require MP to use... unless im' just not reading it right.

Melkire · **06-11-2015, 02:16 PM**

1000 hours in MS Paint.

(06-11-2015, 01:55 PM)Yangh Wrote: [EDIT again] The diagram suggests that chakra feed the mana pool which is then drawn upon to perform Monk feats. Is the mana pool used as a place to pull from or simply a stop off point before being re-purposed. I assume the latter as Monk skills don't require MP to use... unless im' just not reading it right.

I used the words "mana pool" as an abstraction for the personal reservoir of aether that every living being has and can draw on given the right training. Just like how Widargelt tells us that every living being also has chakra.

For the purposes of lore discussion, I'm ignoring the game mechanic that is MP. If I hadn't, we'd be getting into really grey areas such as Paladins. Is it conjury, is it Holy Succor a la 1.0...? Does Flash even exist as a spell within XIV lore, or is it pure game mechanic?

EDIT for Zelmanov: I also left out WAR, DRG, and NIN because lore is very vague when it comes to how they utilize aether. NIN ninjutsu is probably a similar process to THM and to MNK sans control over chakra. And BRD I'm not familiar at all with.

Gegenji · **06-11-2015, 02:18 PM**

I'm of the belief, going by what has been said... that the Chakra IS the mana pool. It doesn't feed into it because it's one and the same. The difference is that it isn't being drained (i.e. using MP) because it's not leaving the body. Instead, it's being used to complement physical exertion (i.e. using TP).

Zelmanov · **06-11-2015, 02:18 PM**

There isn't much said already so I want to give my 2 cents with some personal headcanon, especially as someone who has taken every job to 50 and thus seen the other story quests.

SO TAKE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE CORRECTIONS/CONTRADICTIONS TO MY THOUGHTS TO BETTER REFINE MY UNDERSTANDING.

I've always seen Chakra as a refinement of Aether that fuels all physical disciplines. The domans call it Ninjutsu, the Warriors call it the beast within, It is what allows Bards to sing songs that can rouse allies and allows paladins to brunt the toughest of attacks.

Chakra is in reference to a very specific manner of tapping into that personal aether pool which seems to imply a great deal of control and understanding which would be in line with mythos surrounding warrior monks, especially those in Japan and China.Â

It is contrasting to say the Warrior which doesn't open the faucet the whole way but rather tears the faucet off and must struggle with installing it back on and that is why it can be consuming.

It is, in short, the same god but a different interpretation, much akin to the Abrahamic religions in that some aspects are emphasized over others. Probably a Monk takes time to open up Chakras to avoid being like the Warrior which could, perhaps by a Monk's definition, opens all of them up at once and forcibly reseals them. A monk can actually live with all chakras open at all times and maintain control, which could also lend to the in game interpretation of them being high damage dealers in comparison to Warrior.

It contrasts directly with classes, both physical and magical that seek external conduits for their abilities. Dragoons in possession of Drachen Mail have their armor quenched in Dragon's blood, a corrupting element, as a bargain for power, perhaps another shortcut to obtaining a degree of opened chakras. Both Arcanist Grimoires and Black Mage staves have blood in them in order to better channel their spells, blood in the ink and blood somewhere on the staff. Blood, being very closely tied to aether, perhaps with aether even dissolved in the liquid which can then be wrung dry as a power source.

So I think of MNK chakra as being the most a living thing can be in a controlled manner, as opposed to an explosion of energy that would peter out seconds after being unleashed but in a sustainable manner.

Melkire · **06-11-2015, 02:25 PM**

(06-11-2015, 02:18 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'm of the belief, going by what has been said... that the Chakra IS the mana pool. It doesn't feed into it because it's one and the same. The difference is that it isn't being drained (i.e. using MP) because it's not leaving the body. Instead, it's being used to complement physical exertion (i.e. using TP).

Getting into game mechanics is stepping onto a slippery slope, but for the purposes of this mental exercise, I'll oblige.

Casters can run out of mana. It takes time for the reservoir/pool that they can draw on to replenish. This implies a natural regeneration rate, represented in game as MP Regen. That means either you're getting aether back from nothing (impossible, since having no aether basically means you're dead) or the source is distinct from the reservoir.

The Force from Star Wars is pretty similar in concept. You've energy, and as a living thing you generate and regenerate energy. But ultimately speaking, that energy is on loan to you for as long as you're among the living. Once you're dead, it all flows back to The Greater Web of Life.

That monks don't use MP is Gameplay-Story Segregation. The same probably holds true for warriors and dragoons. You're not using magic to affect the world around you? TP for you.

Gegenji · **06-11-2015, 02:32 PM**

(06-11-2015, 02:25 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(06-11-2015, 02:18 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'm of the belief, going by what has been said... that the Chakra IS the mana pool. It doesn't feed into it because it's one and the same. The difference is that it isn't being drained (i.e. using MP) because it's not leaving the body. Instead, it's being used to complement physical exertion (i.e. using TP).

Getting into game mechanics is stepping onto a slippery slope, but for the purposes of this mental exercise, I'll oblige.

Casters can run out of mana. It takes time for the reservoir/pool that they can draw on to replenish. This implies a natural regeneration rate, represented in game as MP Regen. That means either you're getting aether back from nothing (impossible, since having no aether basically means you're dead) or the source is distinct from the reservoir.

The Force from Star Wars is pretty similar in concept. You've energy, and as a living thing you generate and regenerate energy. But ultimately speaking, that energy is on loan to you for as long as you're among the living. Once you're dead, it all flows back to The Greater Web of Life.

And why can't people generate and regenerate their own aether for their Chakra-mana pool? Aether is an all-encompassing factor of Hydaelyn. The only divide I make in personal aether is the life force/soul (i.e. the stuff that keeps you alive - and why Convert hurts and the CNJ quest line is a thing) and the Chakra (so the one Cocobuki brother has a very small/weak Chakra, and could no more be a Monk than he could a THM). One is the aether lifeblood that keeps you going, the other is the aether that is re-purposed continually in the body to do what is needed... or "spent" when it's pulled out to cast spells.

OttoVann · **06-11-2015, 02:34 PM**

Otto pulls aether from himself and the ground when he opens up his chakras to punch a level higher. Dont bother getting too deeply involved with the mechanics and nuanced when you dont even rp together. Do what you and your rp partners enjoy.

(06-11-2015, 02:32 PM)Gegenji Wrote: And why can't people generate and regenerate their own aether for their Chakra-mana pool?

And whoever is telling you that you can't do this, tell them to speak with me. Do what you want.

Yangh · **06-11-2015, 02:59 PM**

(06-11-2015, 02:34 PM)OttoVann Wrote: Otto pulls aether from himself and the ground when he opens up his chakras to punch a level higher. Dont bother getting too deeply involved with the mechanics and nuanced when you dont even rp together. Do what you and your rp partners enjoy.

(06-11-2015, 02:32 PM)Gegenji Wrote: And why can't people generate and regenerate their own aether for their Chakra-mana pool?

And whoever is telling you that you can't do this, tell them to speak with me. Do what you want.

I don't anyone is being told they can or can't do anything, simply just debating on how we think things might work.

Though back to the topic of aether gathered, aether spent. I'm left wondering if when a Monk uses their chakra and aether if they actually expel it at all. Maybe it loops back around without ever leaving in the body in most cases and is un-shaped, re-purposed and joins back with the natural flow before being called on again.

I suppose there are a few skills Monk posses that do unleash energy such as Rock Breaker, Arm of the Destroyer and Howling Fist but the majority of their abilities seem to use aether to internally bolster rather than externally expel.

Rather than suffering from aether fatigue I think its far more likely that overcharging their bodies has a muscle fatigue like effect to act as their limitations rather than running lower on aether.

Gegenji · **06-11-2015, 03:04 PM**

(06-11-2015, 02:59 PM)Yangh Wrote: Though back to the topic of aether gathered, aether spent. I'm left wondering if when a Monk uses their chakra and aether if they actually expel it at all. Maybe it loops back around without ever leaving in the body in most cases and is un-shaped, re-purposed and joins back with the natural flow before being called on again.

I suppose there are a few skills Monk posses that do unleash energy such as Rock Breaker, Arm of the Destroyer and Howling Fist but the majority of their abilities seem to use aether to internally bolster rather than externally expel.

Rather than suffering from aether fatigue I think its far more likely that overcharging their bodies has a muscle fatigue like effect to act as their limitations rather than running lower on aether.

That's basically what I meant with the whole comparison to tie into MP vs. TP. Casters are expelling the aether from their Chakra to perform their magic, while a MNK's aether is not leaving the body at all. Instead, it is being used to bolster physical skills and thus is more likely to cause a physical fatigue/"out of TP" situation rather than an aetherically drained/"empty MP pool" one. And rest (or medicines/food/etc) helps recover from both. Or something.

Yangh · **06-11-2015, 03:13 PM**

(06-11-2015, 03:04 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-11-2015, 02:59 PM)Yangh Wrote: Though back to the topic of aether gathered, aether spent. I'm left wondering if when a Monk uses their chakra and aether if they actually expel it at all. Maybe it loops back around without ever leaving in the body in most cases and is un-shaped, re-purposed and joins back with the natural flow before being called on again.

I suppose there are a few skills Monk posses that do unleash energy such as Rock Breaker, Arm of the Destroyer and Howling Fist but the majority of their abilities seem to use aether to internally bolster rather than externally expel.

Rather than suffering from aether fatigue I think its far more likely that overcharging their bodies has a muscle fatigue like effect to act as their limitations rather than running lower on aether.

That's basically what I meant with the whole comparison to tie into MP vs. TP. Casters are expelling the aether from their Chakra to perform their magic, while a MNK's aether is not leaving the body at all. Instead, it is being used to bolster physical skills and thus is more likely to cause a physical fatigue/"out of TP" situation rather than an aetherically drained/"empty MP pool" one. And rest (or medicines/food/etc) helps recover from both. Or something.

Ah! Then we're once again on the same page! It certainly would make sense when you consider Monks must train both mind and body. The body being the more emphasised in this case to be able to withstand the fatigue of whatever they're attempting to do.

Kyrrae L'minia · **06-11-2015, 04:50 PM**

See this is where I think people undercomplicate TP. I don't see TP as a 'well, we need some mechanic to control non-mages, so have a tp bar.' I see TP lore wise as physical exertion, or stamina. It makes sense. Use more powerful attacks? Use more TP. Running out of TP? Use Inivigorate. (not that I'm saying Invigorate itself is a lore skill, but rather just the idea of someone drawing on some source to invigorate themselves).
It seems to me that everything we're shown and taught lore wise seems to indicate that Chakra is used to distribute energy through your body to perform extraordinary feats of power. So 'to me' it seems like Chakra is not expended like mage spells, but rather just moving around power throughout your body, similar to the Eastern concept of Chi. Think of it as, if you could for an instant, transfer the power of your legs into your fist, and combine it with the energy there. Now just imagine if you had 7 seats of power in your body, how much power you could pack into that punch.

As to Chakra and opening it through pure discipline, so far we're not given a time frame, but remember, the point of the 2.0 questline is Widargelt trying to find ancient batttlefields so he can achieve the 'legendary' 7th Chakra. So if activating all 7 chakra through discipline alone is 'legendary' then, it stands to reason that it must usually take quite a long time to open even one Chakra. Unless of course the more Chakra you open, the more difficult it gets?

Anyway, I wouldn't get *too* set on our ideas besides the basics we know (that Chakra are points within the body that release power) we're about to get another questline for each job, each detailing more lore! xD Who knows that this could change/adjust how we see it! Ex. Forbidden Chakra, what is this? xD

EDIT: I just saw that the post above me more eloquently put what I was meaning to say, as in cycling the energy through the body. Looks like we're all on the same page. xD

OttoVann · **06-11-2015, 05:27 PM**

I use invigorate as a skill because Otto draws aether from the ground. It works

Sounsyy · **06-11-2015, 07:08 PM**

(06-11-2015, 11:48 AM)Yangh Wrote: I'm looking at you Sounsyy, Berrod!

You all handled all the lore I would've thrown at you already. ^^ This was a very interesting discussion to read though. Think it all sounds pretty sound and in keeping with the limited amount of chakra lore. Perhaps we'll get more lore on the topic in 3.0 during the new job questlines. As I said, most of the following lore has already been put down and discussed but someone else had recently asked me about Chakra lore so I figured I'd post what MNK lore I had cited for him incase something was missed.

MNK and Chakra Lore

(06-11-2015, 01:55 PM)Yangh Wrote: I assume the latter as Monk skills don't require MP to use... unless im' just not reading it right.

In regards to mechanics and MP use... I do just wanna throw in this tiny mindfeck. MNK abilities used to consume MP...

1.0

Fists of Earth Wrote:Converts your attacks into earth attacks and grants a bonus to physical defense. Effect fades upon reuse. MP is consumed while effect is active.

Fists of Fire Wrote:Converts your attacks into fire attacks and grants a bonus to attack power. Effect fades upon reuse. MP is consumed while effect is active.

Fists of Wind Wrote:Converts your attacks into wind attacks and grants a bonus to movement speed and weaponskill recast times. Effect ends upon reuse. MP is consumed while effect is active.

2.0 Beta - 2.1
[Image: 8TiVkIq.png]

dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnn WHAT DOES IT MEAAAN
lol

Melkire · **06-11-2015, 07:10 PM**

That monks, by lore, use aether, even if the gameplay mechanics no longer reflect that? Akin to how conjurers should still be able to manipulate all elements including fire, ice, lightning, etc.

Kellach Woods · **06-11-2015, 08:33 PM**

(06-11-2015, 07:08 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnn WHAT DOES IT MEAAAN
lol

That MP usage does not equate Aether usage and vice-versa.

C'mon Soun you should know this.

Also, wouldn't Silvertear Lake be a great place for Aether by virtue of it being the greatest battlefield around right after Carteneau (and even then - Louisoix's spell would have consumed some of it) regardless of its status as the recognized cradle of life - the site of Midgardsormr's defeat/the Agrias' final flight?

It'd be a sufficient battlefield to yield the 7th chakra.

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