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Telluride · **08-12-2015, 05:06 PM**

(08-12-2015, 04:57 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: I dunno, to me there's something dramatic and scary about just how brutal (and brutally short) the "proper knife fight" scenario is. If you wrote it right, it could still be a deadly dramatic grapple to keep your opponent from being able to grab at you well enough to stab, without all the dramatic dancy stuff.

There's a place for both, it just depends on what sort of feel you're going for!

Here's one of my favorite examples of an exciting, yet properly deadly knife fight, even with the little kinetic blast at the end...

Vitamin C · **08-12-2015, 05:29 PM**

Orenji got stabbed in the shoulder by Anrai Sinclair's stiletto in a Grindstone and it was literally left at that. Albiet I won that fight, the dagger was left in his body and there wasn't anything flashy about the shanking.

Knight Kat · **08-12-2015, 05:36 PM**

What is "realistic" in a world where people of many professions can use magic, people often wear armor made of metals stronger than steel and things like aether and materia come into play?

People develop combat styles based on the times and context. Modern knife-fighting could have an application in Eorzea, but there are many scenarios where it wouldn't cut it (pun not intended).

What if the person you are trying to use the knife on has a spear? Good luck trying to shoulder-grab and close in to stab the spear-user. What if you tried that move on an armored Paladin? Knives by nature are side-arms in warfare. Even in the era where guns didn't exist, bigger, longer weapons were a soldier's first go-to. For Rogues and Ninja who use knives and short-blades as primary weapons, I would think the simple moves won't be enough for every foe.

Sig · **08-12-2015, 06:08 PM**

(08-12-2015, 04:10 PM)Telluride Wrote: It's not just Eorzea, not just "Fantasy", but ALL fictional/cinematic combat.

Anytime you see a close fight between someone using a penetrating weapon (sword, knife, pistol), that person will get very few hits in, if any, compared to the person using blunt weapns (sticks, staves, clubs, fists) if a good, dramatic fight is supposed to be going on. Put a good knife in the hand of the latter person - the one getting the hits in - and fight's done. Boo! Hiss! Boring Murder!

So, basically, what Melkire said. Â Real combat isn't really dramatic. Boxing can be only because it is constrained by very specific rules of engagement. Â MMA fighting often devolves into rolling on the floor and, as Penny Arcade once put it, sweaty, grunting groin-punching. Painful... effective... but kind of, well, not what most people expect a fight to be - at least, most people who don't fight.

Much of fanatasy and cinematic combat does revolve around flashy displays. Â Not all of it does, however. Â A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones comes immediately to mind. Â There is some fine knife fighting to be found in those. Real combat is boring in real life. But in RP? The imagination and sky is the limit.

(08-12-2015, 04:57 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: I dunno, to me there's something dramatic and scary about just how brutal (and brutally short) the "proper knife fight" scenario is. If you wrote it right, it could still be a deadly dramatic grapple to keep your opponent from being able to grab at you well enough to stab, without all the dramatic dancy stuff.

There's a place for both, it just depends on what sort of feel you're going for!

This echos my sentiments extremely well. Â A proper knife fight can really play to the emotions and allow characters to focus on interaction and tension. Â Flips and explosions rarely have the same effect. Â I find that the more RP'ers focus on kinetics, the softer the emotional impact of the RP usually becomes. Â

(08-12-2015, 05:36 PM)Knight Kat Wrote: What is "realistic" in a world where people of many professions can use magic, people often wear armor made of metals stronger than steel and things like aether and materia come into play?

People develop combat styles based on the times and context. Modern knife-fighting could have an application in Eorzea, but there are many scenarios where it wouldn't cut it (pun not intended).

What if the person you are trying to use the knife on has a spear? Good luck trying to shoulder-grab and close in to stab the spear-user. What if you tried that move on an armored Paladin? Knives by nature are side-arms in warfare. Even in the era where guns didn't exist, bigger, longer weapons were a soldier's first go-to. For Rogues and Ninja who use knives and short-blades as primary weapons, I would think the simple moves won't be enough for every foe.

No one disputes that Eorzea is a surreal place filled with all sorts of magic and mystical objects. Â Those objects can also be used in direct, brutally efficient ways. Â

And absolutely, it is most unwise to bring a knife to gun fight, or any fight that features larger arms. Â Armor is frustrating but most suits have convenient little slits that conceal squishy parts. Â Ultimately, a good knife is an amazing side-arm. Â It is sad that it is not used in more colorful ways. Â But this of course is entirely subjective. Â Some folks love flashy pomp.

Caspar · **08-12-2015, 06:41 PM**

But I thought the argument was that techniques which seem flashy to us are in fact brutally efficient in a fantastical setting.Â
I think you're conflating your own suspension of disbelief with the aesthetics of the game, and not neccressarily how rp is usually carried out. In addition, you say that the flashy way is fine but call it painful to look at. I'm not sure what your point is.Â
Making Martials low power and gritty in a SoIaF way is arbitrary in a heavy magic setting, and a strangely commonly trod path of discussion here. I see it as an old habit borne of traditions in western fantasy, that came out of certain unbalanced pen and paper systems. It is the role of the martial to be gritty but weak, the role of the caster to do everything with their bag of tricks. Never mind the fact that martial traditions would change in such a setting to remain relevant.
I've got a chip on my shoulder from those days as you can probably tell, but here in game there's a lot less room for interpretation, as we clearly see both mundane and superhuman Martials.

If you just prefer this aesthetic and wanted to declare such, that's great; as youve seen, you've got a lot of company. Here's how I see it though. Martials are pretty damn magical in this setting. It's canon. If you want to be mundane, cool. Don't be too surprised though if some back flipping ninja shows you up though because there's plenty of examples of that in Eorzea too.
On another note, I don't like the suggestion that fanciful coreography stifles character interaction and dramatic tension. An entire genre of film was built off unrealistic, highly choreographed gunfights and flocks of doves.

A'kos Saiyal · **08-12-2015, 07:03 PM**

(08-12-2015, 06:41 PM)Caspar Wrote: Snipped

All of this. ^^^

Some of the Nin animations are in fact "I jam this blade into you, then I jam this blade into you. Deal."

Also, I don't see many mundane/real world knife fighting moves being very effective on a great majority of the creatures in Eorzea.

Sig · **08-12-2015, 07:39 PM**

(08-12-2015, 06:41 PM)Caspar Wrote: But I thought the argument was that techniques which seem flashy to us are in fact brutally efficient in a fantastical setting.Â
I think you're conflating your own suspension of disbelief with the aesthetics of the game, and not neccressarily how rp is usually carried out. In addition, you say that the flashy way is fine but call it painful to look at. I'm not sure what your point is.Â
Making Martials low power and gritty in a SoIaF way is arbitrary in a heavy magic setting, and a strangely commonly trod path of discussion here. I see it as an old habit borne of traditions in western fantasy, that came out of certain unbalanced pen and paper systems. It is the role of the martial to be gritty but weak, the role of the caster to do everything with their bag of tricks. Never mind the fact that martial traditions would change in such a setting to remain relevant.
I've got a chip on my shoulder from those days as you can probably tell, but here in game there's a lot less room for interpretation, as we clearly see both mundane and superhuman Martials.

If you just prefer this aesthetic and wanted to declare such, that's great; as youve seen, you've got a lot of company. Here's how I see it though. Martials are pretty damn magical in this setting. It's canon. If you want to be mundane, cool. Don't be too surprised though if some back flipping ninja shows you up though because there's plenty of examples of that in Eorzea too.
On another note, I don't like the suggestion that fanciful coreography stifles character interaction and dramatic tension. An entire genre of film was built off unrealistic, highly choreographed gunfights and flocks of doves.

Hence the subjective disclaimers slathered on the OP. Â This whole rant is entirely subjective. Â BUT AMAZING. Â Proportionality is an important part of the point I was trying to make. Â We see a very narrow, fantastic conception of Eorzea through the MSQ. Â It certainly exists and there is nothing wrong with it. Â But I'll be bold and make the guess that the vast majority of Eorzean soliders and citizens, aren't casting advanced spells, performing back flips in combat, or mowing down folks by the dozens.Â

You can't really blame people who want to play powerful, fanciful characters that are consistent with the vast majority of the MSQ quest lore we digest. Â The problem is that such characters exist among PC's in proportions that are not found in NPCs. Â For every one badass back-flipping ninja, there should be some arbitrary number of "gritty martials" to lend to a sense of proportion (10, perhaps)? Â Yet we see no such proportions. Â Some love this. Â Others yawn at it, including me.Â

And I don't really see a dichotomy or inherent weakness in a "gritty martial." Â The Ninja is flipping around too much? Â That's fine - hold an axe overhead and let him skewer himself on the blade. A caster chain-casting fire magic? Â Sure. Â Hide behind a large rock, peak out, and throw a dagger at her squishy face. Â Heavily armored plate knight got you down? Â Drop a rock on his head. Â The "gritty martial" high-powered possibilities are practically endless! Â And highly effective.Â

...Annnd... subjectively amazing, <3!

Caspar · **08-12-2015, 07:56 PM**

(08-12-2015, 07:39 PM)GYSig Wrote:
(08-12-2015, 06:41 PM)Caspar Wrote: But I thought the argument was that techniques which seem flashy to us are in fact brutally efficient in a fantastical setting.Â
I think you're conflating your own suspension of disbelief with the aesthetics of the game, and not neccressarily how rp is usually carried out. In addition, you say that the flashy way is fine but call it painful to look at. I'm not sure what your point is.Â
Making Martials low power and gritty in a SoIaF way is arbitrary in a heavy magic setting, and a strangely commonly trod path of discussion here. I see it as an old habit borne of traditions in western fantasy, that came out of certain unbalanced pen and paper systems. It is the role of the martial to be gritty but weak, the role of the caster to do everything with their bag of tricks. Never mind the fact that martial traditions would change in such a setting to remain relevant.
I've got a chip on my shoulder from those days as you can probably tell, but here in game there's a lot less room for interpretation, as we clearly see both mundane and superhuman Martials.

If you just prefer this aesthetic and wanted to declare such, that's great; as youve seen, you've got a lot of company. Here's how I see it though. Martials are pretty damn magical in this setting. It's canon. If you want to be mundane, cool. Don't be too surprised though if some back flipping ninja shows you up though because there's plenty of examples of that in Eorzea too.
On another note, I don't like the suggestion that fanciful coreography stifles character interaction and dramatic tension. An entire genre of film was built off unrealistic, highly choreographed gunfights and flocks of doves.

Hence the subjective disclaimers slathered on the OP. Â This whole rant is entirely subjective. Â BUT AMAZING. Â Proportionality is an important part of the point I was trying to make. Â We see a very narrow, fantastic conception of Eorzea through the MSQ. Â It certainly exists and there is nothing wrong with it. Â But I'll be bold and make the guess that the vast majority of Eorzean soliders and citizens, aren't casting advanced spells, performing back flips in combat, or mowing down folks by the dozens.Â

You can't really blame people who want to play powerful, fanciful characters that are consistent with the vast majority of the MSQ quest lore we digest. Â The problem is that such characters exist among PC's in proportions that are not found in NPCs. Â For every one badass back-flipping ninja, there should be some arbitrary number of "gritty martials" to lend to a sense of proportion (10, perhaps)? Â Yet we see no such proportions. Â Some love this. Â Others yawn at it, including me.Â

And I don't really see a dichotomy or inherent weakness in a "gritty martial." Â The Ninja is flipping around too much? Â That's fine - hold an axe overhead and let him skewer himself on the blade. A caster chain-casting fire magic? Â Sure. Â Hide behind a large rock, peak out, and throw a dagger at her squishy face. Â Heavily armored plate knight got you down? Â Drop a rock on his head. Â The "gritty martial" high-powered possibilities are practically endless! Â And highly effective.Â

...Annnd... subjectively amazing, <3!

Honestly it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to be seen as low powered, but win fights regularly and demonstrate mastery. This lets your charcter be the underdog and eschew aesthetics you dislike at the same time, while building them up as competent. You say it's subjective, but you want free leave to criticize the game's presented aesthetic and poopoo on others for holding to it; cool, I subjectively don't find that all that amazing, it's a really common theme on here. You say there are a lot of mundanes not seen; agreed, they're often mooks in comparison to a dragoon or a fist of rhalgr. And I agree that basic tactics can still function in a fantastic setting. Even in my case, my assertion has always been "there's no ultimate technique," and never use a tecnhnique that has no purpose when a simpler one does. I don't care about hard realism, though, even with what I know, and were I playing an unpowered character, I'd expect to have to fight dirty to stand even a ghost of a chance. I completely agree being the "badass normal" is cool, but for some reason, a lot of people forget why. They are innately weaker and must use guile or determination to triumph over those with abilities, which, assuming most of us are Job level adventurers, is quite a few people in the rp context, even if not in the larger population.

Sig · **08-12-2015, 08:09 PM**

(08-12-2015, 07:56 PM)Caspar Wrote: Honestly it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to be seen as low powered, but win fights regularly and demonstrate mastery. This lets your charcter be the underdog and eschew aesthetics you dislike at the same time, while building them up as competent. You say it's subjective, but you want free leave to criticize the game's presented aesthetic; cool, I subjectively don't find that all that amazing, it's a really common theme on here. You say there are a lot of mundanes not seen; agreed, they're often mooks in comparison to a dragoon or a fist of rhalgr. And I agree that basic tactics can still function in a fantastic setting. Even in my case, my assertion has always been "there's no ultimate technique," and never use a tecnhnique that has no purpose when a simpler one does. I don't care about hard realism, though, even with what I know, and were I playing an unpowered character, I'd expect to have to fight dirty to stand even a ghost of a chance. I completely agree being the "badass normal" is cool, but for some reason, a lot of people forget why. They are innately weaker and must use guile or determination to triumph over those with abilities, which, assuming most of us are Job level adventurers, is quite a few people in the rp context, even if not in the larger population.

Give me that delicious cake. Â I'll stuff it down my throat and bake another. Â However, perhaps my point was not clear - a character is not powerful because they adhere to a certain style of combat, per se. Â Ultimately, the RP'er will dictate the power of the character, and then with the luck of the dice gods (in most instances), hope that raw luck will translate into sensible combat performance. Â Of course some RP'ers will ensure their characters kill them all or blow off their own foot - that's the magic of RP.

What does this boil down to? Â Well, an experienced combatant bearing a knife with a crazy look on her face should be just as terrifying and challenging, although in different ways, than a dragoon exercising a thirty foot vertical while in full plate. Â The confusion arises from assumptions about power and skill based entirely on a very aesthetic derived from the most fanciful of in-game lore. It's a pleasant aesthetic that is over represented. Â

And I confess, this is all awfully subjective. Â I suppose the point I can't seem to get across is that - plain, boring [aka: awesome] combat and aesthetics are a majorÂ part of the game, too! Â Hell, I'd go so far as to say that most of Eorzea (in a holistic sense) bathes in this style. We PC's simply don't gravitate to the themes as strongly, for a number of reasons.

But it's a beautiful, lovely part of the game. Â Try it sometime, if you haven't already (not just you, Caspar -- thanks, little buddy, it's been a while since I've traded forum posts like broadsides) Regardless, remember to stab them with the pointy end. Â Love you all.

Marisa · **08-15-2015, 04:58 AM**

(08-12-2015, 06:08 PM)undefined Wrote: This echos my sentiments extremely well. Â A proper knife fight can really play to the emotions and allow characters to focus on interaction and tension. Â Flips and explosions rarely have the same effect. Â I find that the more RP'ers focus on kinetics, the softer the emotional impact of the RP usually becomes. Â

This is also my entire opinion on the whole thing. Why does combat realism matter in a fantasy setting? Because it has more impact than laser-light rock concerts claiming to be battles. And even with the presence of magic, realism doesn't change. We can know exactly how a fireball spell would be used in the real world, because it doesn't really alter the fundamentals of combat. With a bit of research and a good amount of rational thought, you absolutely can make believable use of Holy. Â Â

So if you're just out for a good ol' dick-waving contest, superhero fights are fine and dandy. But they don't make for a compelling story, so much as they end up being "who would win in a fight, the guy who shoots lasers out of his eyes or the guy who breathes mustard gas?"

Cato · **08-15-2015, 05:28 AM**

As someone who has, in fact, actually been stabbed I suppose I can give some insight into the whole affair. There's a lot of merit to the idea that a 'realistic' assault would be over in a matter of moments, especially if somebody catches someone else by surprise.

Putting aside the fact that 'realism' in Eorzea operates differently to 'realism' in the real world, however, I'd strongly recommend not underestimating the instinct to survive. When I was attacked I immediately sort to defend myself. Although I was slashed at with a knife I managed to protect myself - first with my right arm and then by grabbing whatever was nearby to use effectively.

I threw stuff. Sought to put distance between myself and my attacker. Adrenaline was pumping beyond anything I'd ever experienced before and then I managed to escape. After it was over? It hurt like hell - but I survived and recovered.

I try to reflect that same sense of desperation in a fight since dragging it on and on just doesn't feel realistic to me. I also think it's possible to strike a balance between making a fight 'flashy' whilst still aiming to end it quickly and efficiently.

Khadan · **08-18-2015, 03:04 PM**

I think I see the point of the OP. Or at least I think I can resonate with the general theme of the topic. It is semi-frustrating to be someone who loves conventional martial arts and incorporates that into RP for the purposes of not only being knowledgeable and realistic but also because it's just plain fun to have a gritty dust up where you don't spend five episodes powering up while internally monologue'ing about your tragic past (I love hyperbole)

That being said, it is a high fantasy with magic almost literally -everywhere- but I still believe a balance can be had with little effort on either side of the 'knives' as it were. I.e. you move faster, hit harder, take more punishment etc. You can still display the sheer brutality, economy of movement, and debilitating blows that occur in a normal knife fight will being aetherically charged the whole time.

Regardless a really good example of knife fighting to me is from the move "The Hunted", a really well done and underrated film (It also takes place in Portland Oregon *represent*)Â

If you have no intention of watching the movie even though you should, have a movie clip of an example of how nasty and brutal knife fights can be:

[youtube]pKjkQ_sPE0U[/youtube]

Otherwise just go see the whole movie, it really is good. One of the best quotes from the making of was something along the lines of "In a knife fight one of you is going to the morgue, the other is going to the hospital"

Kalooeh · **08-19-2015, 01:03 AM**

I'll admit I tend to avoid the more showy things with Kal when it comes to knife-fighting. Because with her personality it's "Nah waste of energy and I'm too damn big for that shit. Fuck it just gonna stab 'em and get it over with", plus she's somewhat of a powerhouse and has the strength to be able to block attacks pretty well from most people, do damage while blocking and maybe even break a limb, and deal some brutal hits. She can take a fair amount of damage herself too even if she isn't in a "tanky" profession and prefers to fight at range
Her being "showy" would be something like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=89&v=rxN8voSzwqU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cklxOia44mA

Sam would probably be a bit more "showy" and deal more with dodging than just trying to block and stab.
Dheina would definitely be one of those that would "dance" around more and be one to dance in and out to get a hit in and get away from the person to avoid a counter. Dhei's probably my weakest physically and even if she gets someone in a vital point there's still the chance they could do a lot of damage to her (especially because adrenaline is a hell of a thing and a knife wound, even to a vital area, may not stop a person right away. Especially if they're used to fighting and pain) , but she's fast so she'd use that as much as she could. She's also the most timid out of my knife users and may want to avoid hurting the person as much as she can and maybe just try to disable them to help someone else escape or to escape from the situation herself.
and Armi would probably show off the most as she stabbed the shit out of someone

Anthony Valron · **08-19-2015, 01:38 AM**

I only have one issue with knife fights.

You're going to get cut. Two people with knives who are fighting - both will end up with multiple slashes or stabs. No matter who wins.

You. Are. Going. To. Get. Cut.

So bleed a bit.

Paradox · **08-21-2015, 12:42 AM**

(08-15-2015, 04:58 AM)Marisa Wrote:
(08-12-2015, 06:08 PM)undefined Wrote: This echos my sentiments extremely well. Â A proper knife fight can really play to the emotions and allow characters to focus on interaction and tension. Â Flips and explosions rarely have the same effect. Â I find that the more RP'ers focus on kinetics, the softer the emotional impact of the RP usually becomes. Â

This is also my entire opinion on the whole thing. Why does combat realism matter in a fantasy setting? Because it has more impact than laser-light rock concerts claiming to be battles. And even with the presence of magic, realism doesn't change. We can know exactly how a fireball spell would be used in the real world, because it doesn't really alter the fundamentals of combat. With a bit of research and a good amount of rational thought, you absolutely can make believable use of Holy. Â Â

So if you're just out for a good ol' dick-waving contest, superhero fights are fine and dandy. But they don't make for a compelling story, so much as they end up being "who would win in a fight, the guy who shoots lasers out of his eyes or the guy who breathes mustard gas?"

If they don't make for a compelling story, it is entirely the fault of the people choreographing the fight, and not of the nature of the fight itself. You can make any kind of battle compelling if you know what you're doing. Just because a lot of power is being flung around doesn't necessarily make something a 'dick waving contest', and I find that this general approach and attitude to anything above cavemen waving their clubs or knives around as being dick waving, or 'overpowered' or so on. It is entirely feasible to make a 'superhero' fight as you labeled it very compelling, equally as much as two sweaty gladiators clashing blades like something out of Spartacus. If it doesn't compel, then the writers have done something wrong. That's all there is to it.

A fight doesn't have to be 'proper' by the rules of our own real world physical laws to have a compelling element to it. I've watched many a fantasy fight that had a lot of emotional, stirring, and compelling elements, just as much as I've watched more simple, dirty fights that are equally compelling. Then again, considering how dismissive some people are in the realism vs surrealism debate around here, the overall snobbery against 'superhero' fights rarely surprises. Especially considering we're using earth-physics to judge combat 'realism' in a world whose full physical laws we're not entirely certain of. The very presence of a fireball spell already violates a lot of realistic physical laws. But. /shrugs/ It is what you make of it.

But if we are going to sue for 'combat realism', then I had better see a lot more people willing to let their characters die in an encounter after they are stabbed or burned. But most people refuse to let their characters die or get wounded mortally without 'express permission' and don't want their characters to die, so the argument for any kind of combat realism is moot. Because combat realism would mean a lot of dead characters with all the fighting liberties they take.

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Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting

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