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PkThunda · **11-06-2015, 03:27 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:21 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:08 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Someone just slut-shamed in this thread on the first page, calling a former guild member a "ho." And I see it from people I play with in-game all the time. It's casually accepted in our culture that we should describe women who have lots of sex as being "hos" or "sluts" who are somehow not doing the right thing (because we accept that sex is somehow shameful), but men who have lots of sex are just doing the man thing right.

Pretty sure the proper term for them is "man-ho" or "manslut." Â I've heard those bandied around a lot, to. Â But that's neither here nor there, I suppose.

Quote:I can also understand why the word "prostitute" is considered harmful to sex workers. It has harmful connotations. When people say the word or hear the word applied to a person, especially a woman, they're not thinking about good things. They're thinking about a "skanky whore" who is dishonest and a bad person who sells her body for money. The word prostitute has been loaded with negative connotations by our media, our law enforcement and our politicians.

When I hear the word, "prostitute," I think of a woman selling her body for money. Â I don't think I've ever had the words "skanky whore" fly through my mind when reading the word or reading a story involving prostitutes, probably because both of those words contain emotion attached to them that would require emotional investment on my part to feel. Â What I usually think when I hear about prostitutes getting arrested is, "I wonder how she got there? Â I wonder why no one helped her? Â I wonder if she's okay?" Â This is primarily because I've never encountered a prostitute that wanted to be a prostitute.

Quote:The word prostitute is also often automatically assumed to apply to trans women, especially trans women of color. Even white trans women have to deal with this assumption, though. I can barely dress appropriately for hot weather without encountering at least one creeper per week who tries to get me to suck his cock behind a dumpster for money. I don't dare dress in an intentionally provocative manner unless I've got a bunch of friends with me.

I've never encountered this. Â I am not trans, but quite a few of my friends are. Â I'm going to have to ask them, but this has literally never come up in conversation or situation with any of them, and several I've been friends with for over a decade or near to a decade.

Quote:You may not accept the word as being a slur, and technically it isn't so in that you're correct, but it's absolutely loadedÂ with negativity in all kinds of ways. If you don't think so, ask any random woman if they're a prostitute. Chances are they won' reply with a simple, "No, my occupation is..." response.

I would posit that what's loaded with negativity is the actual job, and sex in general. Â Changing the word "prostitute" to something else won't dispel that negativity. Â Or, rather, it will - until people figure out what the new word actually means.

First and foremost; sexworkers are not victims. Wondering why no one 'helped' them removes their bodily autonomy- for some it's the only job they can keep, due to disability, lack of well paying jobs in their community, or wanting to spend more time with their family.Â
Sex-trafficking is a completely different beast; they are not sexworkers, but victims of a cruel practice that thrives where sexwork is criminalized. I can expand on this in PM if you'd like.

Secondly, sexworkers do not sell their bodies unless they are in on the black market's need for organs.
They sell time and the service of physical intimacy.

Shoshopu · **11-06-2015, 03:28 AM**

Is it really that difficult to avoid using a word when you know someone (or a group of someones) in the community might be made uncomfortable by it? Harmed by it in their offline lives? In this case I think a more than reasonable argument has been made. It's not like OP was asking anyone to change how they think about sex workers or change how you RP it, but to just be mindful of it when discussing it OOC. Especially around other sex workers.

Or is this more of a principle of the matter thing, like "I don't feel like I should have to do this thing so I won't"?

edit: I hadn't ever thought about it until OP's post above but it's interesting how we call it "selling your body". That's just another example of how loaded it is to us without realizing it when we say it. But I think it's just human nature that we lend a lot of significance to sex. To outsiders, the service of physical intimacy is much more significant than the service of.. say... retail... or serving food. To the point people consider it as you might as well just be selling your entire body. It's objectifying in a way.

LiadansWhisper · **11-06-2015, 03:28 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:27 AM)PkThunda Wrote: First and foremost; sexworkers are not victims. Wondering why no one 'helped' them removes their bodily autonomy- for some it's the only job they can keep, due to disability, lack of well paying jobs in their community, or wanting to spend more time with their family.Â
Sex-trafficking is a completely different beast; they are not sexworkers, but victims of a cruel practice that thrives where sexwork is criminalized. I can expand on this in PM if you'd like.

Secondly, sexworkers do not sell their bodies unless they are in on the black market's need for organs.
They sell time and the service of physical intimacy.

I've literally replied five or six times to you, and this is what you choose to nitpick about while ignoring everything else I've said?

Okay. Smile

PkThunda · **11-06-2015, 03:30 AM**

I should add something important:

Sexworkers are allowed to reclaim the language if they want to. If you know a sexworker who is alright with you saying certain words in private, then go ahead! The issue comes up when in a public setting like a forum here.

Oli! · **11-06-2015, 03:30 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:28 AM)Shoshopu Wrote: Is it really that difficult to avoid using a word when you know someone (or a group of someones) in the community might be made uncomfortable by it? Harmed by it in their offline lives? In this case I think a more than reasonable argument has been made. It's not like OP was asking anyone to change how they think about sex workers or change how you RP it, but to just be mindful of it when discussing it OOC. Especially around other sex workers.

Or is this more of a principle of the matter thing, like "I don't feel like I should have to do this thing so I won't"?

At this point, it's a point of contention regarding "Automatic Bigotry;" namely, the concept that through the usage of a certain kind of word, regardless of context, intent, or individual relation to it, it automatically makes someone a "bad person."

LiadansWhisper · **11-06-2015, 03:30 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:28 AM)Shoshopu Wrote: Is it really that difficult to avoid using a word when you know someone (or a group of someones) in the community might be made uncomfortable by it? Harmed by it in their offline lives? In this case I think a more than reasonable argument has been made. It's not like OP was asking anyone to change how they think about sex workers or change how you RP it, but to just be mindful of it when discussing it OOC. Especially around other sex workers.

Or is this more of a principle of the matter thing, like "I don't feel like I should have to do this thing so I won't"?

I don't think it's actually come up on the forums more than maybe a handful of times, at best. But if it really is that offensive to certain parties, they can always put the offender in question on Blacklist or ignore them on the forums and never have to read anything they say ever again. The internet gives us amazing tools to protect ourselves from ever reading or hearing something that might offend us.

PkThunda · **11-06-2015, 03:30 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:28 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I've literally replied five or six times to you, and this is what you choose to nitpick about while ignoring everything else I've said?

Okay. Â

Yes.

LiadansWhisper · **11-06-2015, 03:31 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:30 AM)PkThunda Wrote: I should add something important:

Sexworkers are allowed to reclaim the language if they want to. If you know a sexworker who is alright with you saying certain words in private, then go ahead! The issue comes up when in a public setting like a forum here.

Why should I accept your view and definition of the word over another person's view and definition of it? Especially when you're both in the same industry.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-06-2015, 03:32 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:27 AM)PkThunda Wrote: First and foremost; sexworkers are not victims. Wondering why no one 'helped' them removes their bodily autonomy- for some it's the only job they can keep, due to disability, lack of well paying jobs in their community, or wanting to spend more time with their family.Â
Sex-trafficking is a completely different beast; they are not sexworkers, but victims of a cruel practice that thrives where sexwork is criminalized. I can expand on this in PM if you'd like.

Secondly, sexworkers do not sell their bodies unless they are in on the black market's need for organs.
They sell time and the service of physical intimacy.

I would argue they are often victims of poor socioeconomic conditions. As others have said, very few sex workers would choose that work over an equally well paid job that would fit their own particular needs.

PkThunda · **11-06-2015, 03:34 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:32 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: I would argue they are often victims of poor socioeconomic conditions. As others have said, very few sex workers would choose that work over an equally well paid job that would fit their own particular needs.

As are many minimum wage workers who hold 2-3 jobs they would rather not have.

V'aleera · **11-06-2015, 03:35 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:09 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: None of those terms are legal terms for an occupation. All of the terms I saw and recognized are used in a pejorative manner probably 99% of the time. I think you're comparing apples to oranges.

Not at all. If someone asks me to describe the new neighbors and I call them a pair of friendly N*****s from Ohio, have I erred? The statement clearly communicates the ethnicity of the new neighbors and is made with no ill or insulting intent.

Again, my line of argument is directed specifically at the original poster to which I responded, wherein the poster asserted that so long as a word is used in a technically correct fashion and without ill intent that it is acceptable.

Zhavi · **11-06-2015, 03:35 AM**

Hm, well, I disagree with your approach.

I don't like things that are stated in absolutes. I have gotten into rows with people (strangers, mostly) over the word gypsy. Because I believe in promoting positivity over restrictedness; the groups that are trying to encourage learning and acceptance (word reclamation is a thing!) over telling someone how they should and shouldn't act are what I prefer to go to.

Two, I don't like it when someone speaks for an entire group without being a representative (for clarification: representing a social or political group under a set name -- as in, people who have agreed that you speak for them). Yeah, there are people who believe certain words shouldn't be used -- but there are also people who don't believe that. To present your case as if this is what all "sex workers" believe or want is a little bit disingenuous to me.

http://hazlitt.net/feature/word-prostitute
http://thebillfold.com/2012/08/in-conver...rostitute/

It's the same thing as when someone tells me not to use the word 'gypsy,' not even when I'm not referring to the Roma (or any of the cultural groups who spread out from India) and using it in fantasy as a shorthand for a specific kind of traveling culture who are distrusted by settled folk -- I'm with the people who are trying to reclaim that word, who want to spread its use as something positive.

The thing with words is that sometimes the meanings aren't set in stone. And, honestly, I feel like if I start dismissing the word 'prostitute' like it's something dirty and unclean, I'm doing a disservice to the men and women I read on places like fetlife who talk openly, unabashedly, proudly, and shame-free about their work all the while answering questions frankly and honestly.

And who own themselves and the words they use for their trade.

That said, if someone asks me to not use a word for them, specifically, because it negatively affects them personally, then yeah, I won't.

But you're going to need a better argument to get me to agree that my use of language is harmful. I'm not ashamed of my sex life or sexual proclivities, and I'm not ashamed of yours, either.

Oli! · **11-06-2015, 03:35 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:34 AM)PkThunda Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:32 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: I would argue they are often victims of poor socioeconomic conditions. As others have said, very few sex workers would choose that work over an equally well paid job that would fit their own particular needs.
As are many minimum wage workers who hold 2-3 jobs they would rather not have.

It's worth noting that they fall into the definition of "Prostitute" that McBeef mentioned earlier.

There is a very real school of philosophical and socioeconomic thought that states that any person that is forced to overwork, or otherwise sell their energy or decency at a level which they find disagreeable is undergoing systematic prostitution.

EDIT: 666th post, oh boy.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-06-2015, 03:36 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:30 AM)PkThunda Wrote: I should add something important:

Sexworkers are allowed to reclaim the language if they want to. If you know a sexworker who is alright with you saying certain words in private, then go ahead! The issue comes up when in a public setting like a forum here.

There are an estimated 42 million sex workers in the world. Most of them are poor women of color.Â

What makes you think you have the authority to speak for them, and say what words the group should be referred to as?

I am a transgender woman, however I don't feel I have the authority to speak about the community at large, only my own opinions.

However you think you have this right? How so? Are you the head of a large group? Did you give a survey? Have you been petitioned?

I'm very curious as to your answer.

Hyakki · **11-06-2015, 03:36 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:13 AM)PkThunda Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:09 AM)Gharen Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 02:21 AM)PkThunda Wrote: It is, however, not your say in which words should and should not be accepted.

Pk, personal crusade or not, sometimes people should take their own advice. And realize that not everyone will agree with you whether you like it or not. And sometimes it's just better to agree, to disagree.

As I said in my original post, no one has to agree to sexwork to be respectful of its members, and it is the say of the group that is being affected by said language to say whether or not it is harmful. The group is question is one I am part of, and know others who are also part of, who have been asking for a change.

Read it again.

(11-06-2015, 03:09 AM)Gharen Wrote: Pk, personal crusade or not, sometimes people should take their own advice. And realize that not everyone will agree with you whether you like it or not. And sometimes it's just better to agree, to disagree.

THIS. You've already said your piece, and that's the best you can do. It's on the reader now to decide how they will view sex workers after reading your post. Continuing to be preachy and pushy about the subject will only serve to deter people from taking your side.

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Sex-work and Harmful Language

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes