RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Yssen · **03-21-2016, 11:38 AM**

(03-21-2016, 11:15 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(03-21-2016, 11:13 AM)Yssen Wrote:
(03-21-2016, 09:28 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(03-21-2016, 09:21 AM)Kage Wrote: It doesn't exclude them from it but you are not confined to them. Don't see the problem with pointing that out when people seem to want to make it seem that way.

We forget all too well that there's a lot of faith checking done with lore in this game when you take an NPC's 'word'. They've admitted more than a few times that Word of God is really Word of God because they may want to mislead us. NPCs aren't all-knowing. Word of God is.

Even the Word of God doesn't necessarily make anything clear, though.

Whenever these topics come up, people weigh in on them. I think we're all just tired of the most accurate response being "Sure, but maybe not" for the myriad different reasons we're given as things become more clear, or we have conflicting sources, or we're just guessing.

Until there is a full blown FFXIV Ultimania or some other such giant guide "sure, but maybe not" is going to always be the most common answer. Word of God as far as lore for the moment comes from the Story and Lore Devs, even when it contradicts what NPCs are saying. Everything stated by any NPC should always be taken with a grain of salt. That is spiffy state we live in. Sorta like the people piecing together lore for SoIaF, it is all strewn across character PoV and all of it was suspect. Then the World Book came out and confirmed the things that Martin did not confirm in person. Nature of story telling in this fashion.

Well, yeah, but in that case we can just slap a sticky up in the forum saying "Every concept is fine, but maybe not later on."

It's fun to discuss these things.

It goes both ways with the right and wrong, but I have been baffled by the fact that we do not just blanket say that and only that instead of some of the other... stuff for a while now.

To the subject at hand. It is an interesting concept, but not necessarily a unique one in terms of the Main Story or plots and story bits come up with by other characters. Do not get me wrong, that fact does not make the concept a bad thing. Back in 1.0 Yssen knew of 25 Garlean PCs ICly (he had a list) and I knew of many others besides those OOCly. Didn't exactly ruin things forever by being a broad concept.Â

My best advice would be to Echo (see what I did there ;p) the slight edit from my last post. Worry more about what the characters believe rather than if they are right in that belief. In 1.0 there was a Roe that believed he was the Chosen of Byergot. Summoned a magic smacky hammer to try and smite things and everything. Was he? Dunno. He certainly believed he was. He was also a Monetarist who believed he was above everyone else because he was rich and junk. To one character that Roe is absolutely a holy chosen. To another he is just another Monetarist to be among the first thrown up on the wall when the revolution comes. The "absolute truth" of it doesn't matter. What a character does because of their belief does.

My two cents. Hope it has been helpful. ^ ^

Sounsyy · **03-21-2016, 08:59 PM**

(03-21-2016, 02:35 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: What's interesting about your idea is that what you're talking about sounds a lot like the Archons and one of the predecessor organizations to the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. Sounsyy will be around momentarily to go over the 1.x lore on that, I suspect.

Okay, I saw mention of Warriors of Light, Echo, Path of the Twelve, and Archons...? Queue lore dump:

Warriors of Light, Path of the Twelve, & The Echo
The Echo Lore Compilation has several lore quotes, explanations, and links to additional sources on the topics of the Echo, its many wielders the Path of the Twelve, and additional lore on the differences between the Warriors of Light (Twelvesblades), the Warrior of Light, and Hydaelyn's Chosen.

For quick summary:
-The Echo

Minfilia Wrote:Ah, but enough talk of the knowledge we lack. Let me tell you of what we do know. The Echo allows you to breach the wall of a person's soul, and hear the resonations of their past. You will be there in their memories, seeing things as they saw them. You may even interact with that which lies therein. However, the past is like a stone tablet. You cannot uncarve what is already written.

As an unexpected side-effect of the gift, it seems the ability to reach into the soul of another also allows some of us to understand their words without having to comprehend the sounds they utter. In short, the Echo has granted these fortunate souls mastery of every language existing on Hydaelyn.

Unfortunately, that is the sum of our understanding of this gift from the gods... Why, we are not even sure the gift is from the Twelve. It is certainly true that many of those who hear the Echo also claim to have witnessed starshowers, but who is to say that even the starshowers are sent by them?

It is a sad admission, but this very lack of knowledge accounts for much of the persecution faced by our walkers. The less that is known about something, the more it is distrusted by the masses. If we were to learn more of the Echo, perhaps we could educate people, and help them to realize that we mean them no harm... But until we have learned that which we must teach them, we can expect only hatred.

-The Path of the Twelve

Minfilia Wrote:And what you possess is a rare talent which we have come to refer to as â€œthe Echo.â€ We believe it is in some way connected to the strange phenomena which have been occurring in locations all about Eorzea. Were you not witness to the skies turning dark and showering the land with a storm of stars? Some of our brothers believe those who partook in this celestial event were â€œtouchedâ€ by the Twelve, and that that is how they came by their gift. The Path is not only a place for study, but a refuge for those who have been touched in some way. We aim to uncover the meaning behind these unexplained events while offering protection and guidance to those who hear the Echo.

-The Warriors of Light

Momodi Wrote:There is one thing the survivors agree on, though: the part played by a band of adventurers who laid down their lives for a realm that wasn't their own. They fought valiantly, and like so many others, they never returned. Deeds worth rememberin', I'm sure you'll agree. It's just a shame our recollections of those brave heroes are as jumbled as those of the Calamity itself.

Whenever we try to call their faces to mind, it's like they're standin' between us and the midday sun, permanently sihlouetted... I'll bet that sounds poetic to you, doesn't it? Well it's not. It's bloody infuriating. But even if we can't remember them, we'll not let 'em be forgotten, and so we call 'em the Warriors of Light.

The Archons

Tyago Moui Wrote:Caught wind of all this Archon talk yet? Some folk make them for the very incarnations of the Twelve, come to Eorzea. Old prophecies and wives' tales say they descend from their heavenly seat whenever disaster threatens Eorzea, see. Needless to say, many believe the Archons to have otherworldly powersâ”€both of mind and body. According to the loremasters' books, there was an age of shadow and calamity some fifteen hundred-odd years ago, when a great flood drowned the worldâ”€the sixth Umbral Era, they called it. Believers say it was the twelve Archons what came to fight the darkness then.

Louisoix Wrote:It is foretold that on the cusp of an Umbral Calamity, individuals blessed with the power of the Echo will appear. During the Sixth Umbral Era, when the waters rose to swallow the land, the twelve Archons who stood against the darkness each bore this blessing. The histories paint a fanciful picture of these gifted souls. Through countless retellings, the Archonsâ€™ deeds are become myth, their powers more akin to gods than men. However, there are two things of which I am now certain. First, their gift, the Echo, granted them the power to walk within the memories of others.*** Secondâ”€You have been blessed with the selfsame power.

The Waning of the Sixth Sun Wrote:The peoples of the Fifth Astral Era will be remembered for building their civilization on a foundation of magic, relentlessly tapping Hydaelyn of her lifeblood to indulge their decadence. The burden of the planet, however, would prove too great. Aetherial balance was lost, and the elements ran wild. At the urgent behest of a party of twelve shadowy figures history only remembers as the Archons, the nations agree to consolidate their remaining resources and form the Grand Companies of Eorzea in an attempt to forestall the coming apocalypse. But it was too little, too late. The damage done to Hydaelyn was irreversible, and the people could only wait and watch as their fates played out.

Rain fell from the skies for three score days and three score nights until all but the highest peaks were submerged in an endless sea. Whole cities were swallowed, entire populations lost. The Fifth Astral Era had come to a close, ushering the darkness of the Sixth Umbral Era.

Thancred Wrote:More than a thousand years past, a great calamity was visited upon this world. Across the sky, a terrible blackness spread till no light could be seen, and then descended, seeping into the very hearts of men. Thus was he sorely afflicted, and his ways perverted. Chaos was in all places all at once, and myriad creation was destroyed. Avarice reigned supreme, and civilization was thrown into a lawless struggle for wealth and powerâ”€the mighty taking as they saw fit with complete disregard for nature and fellow man alike. Evil begat evil and ripened unchecked, taking on the sickly sweetness of rot, near to bursting and rank with the promise of decay. It was then that the Twelve, grieved by the corruption and sin that had gripped their creation, decided to purge the world of its evils with a cleansing deluge, proclaiming: â€œBehold the power of pure water!â€ And thus began the sixth of the Umbral Eras. There is a moral in this story for those wise enough to find it. You see, it was we mortals who brought the great flood upon ourselves and our world, having left the gods no recourse. And so if our faults ushered in an Umbral Era in the past, then our strengths can prevent the coming of another in the future.

Tyago Moui Wrote:They say Ahldbhar was the mightiest of the twelve Archons. Rhalgr the Destroyer himself, taken form in Roegadyn fleshâ”€a bloody mountain of a man, and a fearsome warrior, besides. Not unlike our friend at the Coliseum, eh? You mustâ€™ve seen renderings of Rhalgr at some pointâ”€in paint or stone. Looks like a bag of angry muscles in a mageâ€™s robes, right? Aye, well, those are done in the likeness of Archon Ahldbhar. Ahldbhar fought relentlessly against a clan of wicked sorcerers that sought only to wreak havoc on the world through their dark powers. But then, something happenedâ€¦ Something that threw Ahldbhar into deep despair. And in the end, he turned and took up with the enemy, though none can say as to why. What came of him after his betrayal? Well, I confess I havenâ€™t heard the end of the tale myself.

Y'shtola Wrote:You have no doubt heard the whisperings of the Sixth Umbral Era and the cabal of mages at its center. Yes, there are those who claim it was the mages and their unholy pact with the demon lords of the seven hells that triggered the cataclysm, but there are others who believe it was the mages who led the realm out of that dark age. Who now can say which is true? No man alive. Yet one thing is certainâ”€the rise of a Seventh Umbral Era is inevitable. The question is not when it will come, or who will usher it in, but how well you are prepared. If you are willing, I would ask of you your assistance. The time of reckoning draws nigh, and Eorzea will need all the allies she can muster. Together, we may be able to save the realm, but first, you must look into your own heart and decide whether the path you walk is truly that of the righteous.

Fernehalwes Wrote:Thatâ€™s right! Like it was brought up earlier, the Archons arenâ€™t the same person, but thereâ€™s always people out there that read their history and realize the destruction is in cycle and if you study the books you know itâ€™s in a certain order and you know something is coming and the people find that, gather books and tomes and they have these societies that bring this information together and then they realize its gonna be bad and they have this information that before there was a group and so weâ€™re going to be the ones that go out and try to convince the people. Of course there are the legends, fairy tales and songs that talk about these Archons. To normal people they think theyâ€™re these people sent by the gods but actually its just these people that have learned about whatâ€™s going to happen and are going to warn them. Of course people are gonna be like â€˜Moon is coming down? You canâ€™t expect me to believe that, no way!â€™

***Note: In Louisoix's letter to Minfilia prior to the formation of the Path of the Twelve, he insinuates that all twelve of the 5th Astral Era Archons possessed the Echo. While this may have been true, none of the six 6th Astral Era Archons possess the Echo.

_______________________________

(03-21-2016, 08:51 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Aren't the Scions related in some way to the Twelve, hence the tattooes and stuff? Uncle Lou came bearing a staff engraved Thaliak's mark, and is involved in the closest experience wherein the Twelve are prominent.

Negative, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn have absolutely no correlation to the Twelve. The tattoos on their necks are a Sharlayan marking known as the "Mark of Sages" which is essentially a tattoo for Sharlayans who have earned the Studium equivalent of a doctorate. These Sages are greatly respected by Sharlayan society, specifically those within their chosen field of study.

Y'shtola Wrote:The â€œmark of the sagesâ€ is attributed to persons whose knowledge in a given field has been recognized by the Sharlayan scientific community. To bear it is an honor that belongs to the most elite of our scholars. I donâ€™t want to say that we exegetes are better than the other Sharlayan scholars, but there is no doubt that we have done our best to achieve excellence. Every one of us has a specialty. This allows us to cover large areas of knowledge, yet still research them thoroughly.

The mark on the Scions' clothing (the eye that looks creepily like Zodiark's FFXII glyph) is that of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, the organization forged between Minfillia's former Path of the Twelve and Sharlayan's Circle of Knowing.

Louisoix's staff, Tupismati is in fact an ancient relic of legend said to be able to channel the power of the Twelve. However, in actuality, the pieces of Tupismati (the tablet and horn) are two parts of a key that allows the bearer to channel near-infinite amounts of aether through the staff without breaking. In 1562 6AE, when the Circle of Knowing first came to Eorzea from Sharlayan, they sought to acquire these two pieces of Tupismati before they fell into Ascian hands. Because the Ascians also want to be able to channel near-infinite amounts of aether... for a very different purpose.

That said, Louisoix did wield a staff that bore the Scholar's mark, had Thaliak as his patron deity, and did have a spiritual moment with the Twelve in his final moments of his life. Unfortunately... two out of the three could be considered circumstantial at best. Thaliak is also Urianger's patron deity, as well as the Sharlayan patron deity. And there are many weapons... and armor now, that bear the Twelve's marks, such as the Gerolt Masterworks.

_______________________________

(03-21-2016, 09:19 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(03-21-2016, 09:16 AM)Kage Wrote: Except, Fernehalwes has made a statement about Archons before at the Fanfest Lore Panel explaining that the Archons aren't these mystified manifestations of beyond-man.

(10-18-2014, 08:12 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Circle of Knowing actually Archons?
-Circle of Knowing ARE Archons! Archons goes back multiple eras. Near end of astral era, people that remembered the past will come to eorzea and inform them that Umbral eras are coming. Those prepared people will survive. This happens repeatedly every astral era closing. Different Archons every time. Circle of Knowing BECAME archons. Tattoos on their neck will be explained 2.4

And here is some other conjecture brought up about archons.

That doesn't say anything about excluding them from being aspects of the Twelve, it just says they're accurate doompreppers.

This is what makes it so hard to lorecheck the ambiguous stuff: even the clarifications aren't clear.

The above is my quick paraphrasing of what was said. Let me post the entire quote from Fanfest:

Fernehalwes Wrote:Thatâ€™s right! Like it was brought up earlier, the Archons arenâ€™t the same person, but thereâ€™s always people out there that read their history and realize the destruction is in cycle and if you study the books you know itâ€™s in a certain order and you know something is coming and the people find that, gather books and tomes and they have these societies that bring this information together and then they realize its gonna be bad and they have this information that before there was a group and so weâ€™re going to be the ones that go out and try to convince the people. Of course there are the legends, fairy tales and songs that talk about these Archons. To normal people they think theyâ€™re these people sent by the gods but actually it's just these people that have learned about whatâ€™s going to happen and are going to warn them. Of course people are gonna be like â€˜Moon is coming down? You canâ€™t expect me to believe that, no way!â€™

Taylor Wrote:He is one of these mysterious souls traveling from aetheryte to aetheryte, preaching dark words of the coming of the Seventh Umbral Era. I'll not be fooled by these so-called Archons, and neither should you. Urianger's words are all he has, and that's all they areâ”€words. This Seventh Umbral Era is either a hoax or a trick of the old fool's mind. Be that as it may, fear is spreading among the smallfolk like wildfire.

Much less ambiguous.
Are the Archons reminiscent of the Twelve? Sure, the comparison can and has been made. However, I think the whole reason the two get compared in the first place is that there were Twelve Archons during the 6th Umbral Calamity 1,600 years ago to match the Twelve deities. Five years ago in 1572, there were only Six Archons. In the time of the Allagans there were likely a different number of Archons.

Could specific Archons of the past have been blessed by the Twelve like Louisoix? Sure. But are the Archons (re)incarnations of the Twelve gods? No.

SapphireSkylines · **03-22-2016, 09:56 AM**

Thanks Sounsyy, this is really helpful.

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