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Hyrist · **07-29-2013, 05:33 PM**

(07-29-2013, 05:04 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: tldr; Increasing Egi size doesn't hurt anything, this is misleading and inaccurate. Making them the same size as a player character wold go a long way to making them look more impressive but wouldn't detriment players ability to work around them in a fight.

Stating this as a claim of fact is inaccurate, I can attest to this personally as it is is my own personal preference that these do become a matter of obstruction while I am playing another class. I can affirm this preference of mine both in FFXI and Aion, having my camera obscured by a rather large creature (Be it Shiva's or Garuda's Posterior or the rather large higher grade elemental from Aion.) I found myself having to stop and re-position my camera on more than a few occasions for each game.

But as someone has said, this impression is subjective. You prefer them larger, and they do not bother you. That is fine. It is your recommendation to make for the developers and if they decide to go with it, it will simply be something I will have to abide by. But I've listed my concerns as an individual and I'll stand by them. A personal opinion isn't something that needs to be discredited for the sake of advancing one's own agenda. If the sizes get larger and are in my way as a Dragoon I will deal with it.Â

However, as a Summoner, if they are enlarged I will be self-conscious of the change, rather than enjoying of it, as I know how I would feel in the melee position. Granted, this is me inferring someone else feelings - but the uneasiness will be there regardless. If it becomes too obtuse it may very well shy me away from the class entirely.

Ashren Dotharl · **07-29-2013, 05:46 PM**

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I'm just going to repost this image again, because I feel it says everything I'm trying to say. People still seem to be under the impression that "larger" means "huge" and that's just not the case. No one is asking for Egis that are the same size as the Summons from FFXI (those were admittedly quite large), and definitely not asking for anything as large as the elementals from Aion, I merely used them as an example of what I was accustomed to in most games. Sadly the picture uses a point where the Egi is floating quite high off the ground, but in the latest tour of eorzea video we see Titan actually floats only just a few inches off the ground putting him roughly at about the same height as a Lalafel, so increasing their size by the suggested amount in the above picture would put them on par, if not a little smaller, than a Midlander.

Perhaps I'm getting a bit too defensive over my own opinion here, so allow me to apologize. Where I'm coming from however is, whether or not they change the size of the Egi, this is the class I want to play the most. I absolutely adore pet classes, every MMO I've ever played it's always the class I flock to the quickest. Eight years of WoW I made one character, a Warlock, and I never played another character my entire career in that game. When I joined TERA my first character (and the first I leveled to 60) was a Mystic, in Warhammer Online I played a Magus (thought they weren't much of a pet class).

For me the Egis ARE the class in a lot of ways, they are going to be what is iconic about the Summoner class more than the Grimoire ever will be. So my reasoning for wanting larger Egis is perhaps the exact opposite of why people DON'T want them. I want to be able to see my pets in the middle of a fight, and my fear is that in a large raid my pet is going to get lost in the mass like a small child in a crowded mall.

I don't want to press X to Jason.

Saefinn · **07-29-2013, 05:53 PM**

I think if the avatars are the same size as a normal Hyur and the Summoner is standing away as a summoner would, I don't think there would be much of a difference than say if a Dragoon Roegadyn was standing in your way meleeing the enemy. In FFXI, the avatars were larger than players and took up more room than the suggested adjustment. Whilst it didn't bother me, in fact I liked it, but I accept it was not the same for everybody.
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I think the proposal is a fair compromise. It's an increase in size, without the sacrifice to people's line of sight, at least that would be my argument.

[edit]
Or as Ash just said.

Azthran · **07-29-2013, 06:05 PM**

I can see things from both sides here, I've played the pet classes in other games aswell as Melee and I've had my share of things getting in my way be it other players or a pet that has some pathing issues. I think some of the concern here is not so much that the summon is on top of you but has positioned itself in front of your camera because of poor pathing or what have you.

Also keep in mind that if you make them taller you also have to make them wider, and while we have Roes running around they also aren't full of glowy particle effects. Some of these effects can be turned off mind you as I'm pretty sure I remember an option to turn off weapon/spell effects that were not my own. So even if you make them a bit taller like that you are still adding to the volume of them and I'd be willing to bet that some of them might end up being wider than a Roe and glowing.

Again it's not much different than having a player get in your way. Also as mentioned summoners only harness a sliver of the primal's power and from a lore point of view this may just be as much of that power as a summoner can handle without risk of losing control.

Ashren Dotharl · **07-29-2013, 06:24 PM**

(07-29-2013, 06:05 PM)Azthran Wrote: Again it's not much different than having a player get in your way. Also as mentioned summoners only harness a sliver of the primal's power and from a lore point of view this may just be as much of that power as a summoner can handle without risk of losing control.

I could agree to the lore point of view of them being small because it's all we could handle, but that's just trying to use hand wavery to explain a design team decision that had nothing to do with lore. Hvirine stated that they were larger at one point, but for one reason or another they made them smaller without any insight into why they were made smaller. Maybe it was for the reasons expressed here about line of sight or something, though I honestly just don't see the line of sight thing being that big a deal if the increases being suggested in the feedback forums.

I will say this though, if they create a decent pet interface I'll be able to live with the tiny Egis, but from what I've seen from the Chocobo Companion my hopes are not very high. I'm kind of assuming that a lot of what the Summoner will do is healing, buffing, and micro managing their pet while casting debuffs or dots on enemies, and if a lot of that requires me to actually have line of sight on my pet, then I'm sorry but that's more important than a larger pet making you have to adjust your camera angle.

I will correct myself however, I watched the videos that showed some of the Egis in them and they do actually float a bit higher than I had originally thought (about as high as shown in the images), however with that in mind size doesn't really matter, they'll block your line of sight no matter what.

Hyrist · **07-29-2013, 06:37 PM**

I understand the request, even the fact that you feel that it may be some sort of compromise or reasonable request to ask for a pet that is, essentially, equal in size of the player.

But perhaps, and this may be bad expression on my part and I am sorry for it, what is not being relayed here is that with the existence of your pet, you've essentially doubled the size of your own avatar.

Also, keep in mind, the picture being used for reference is not, in the least bit, accounting for perspective change in the video. The Ifrit is actually closer to 2/3rds the size of the Hume Male, rather than half which is being inferred here.

Likewise, the enlarge picture used as refrence is actually closer to the red version implied rather than the green, which is actually more accurate to the real avatar.

To display how the camrea angle and distance is skewing the view of the players, we must first reanalyze the appearance of Ifrit Egi during its introduction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbF3jq04c80Â

In the video, from 0:58, to 1:03 you can pause it at brief intervals in which the angle the Egi can seem much larger to much smaller depending on the angle of view and the position it is.

So let's get another reference.

First, the picture of each race of Summoners, as listed in the Blog.Â (View from the front for additional reference. )

Then, let's take a screencap of the video from the Tour of Eorzea 3, which directly overlays the Size of the Titan Egi to a Roe. (at 4:53 you can verify that even with the Roe in front, Titan is still roughly half its size.)

Comparing a Roe to a Hyur in the previous transposed images, you get roughly 2/3rds the size of the Hyur - which, in my viewpoint, is a fair size for the Egi's to be.

All and all I'm satisfied with this size reference. I do not feel as if summons need to be as large as its casters.

Azthran · **07-29-2013, 06:42 PM**

(07-29-2013, 06:24 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: I'm kind of assuming that a lot of what the Summoner will do is healing, buffing, and micro managing their pet while casting debuffs or dots on enemies, and if a lot of that requires me to actually have line of sight on my pet, then I'm sorry but that's more important than a larger pet making you have to adjust your camera angle.

I know they were used as healers a lot in FFXI though with the focus on DoTs and debuffs I have a feeling summoners in ARR may be a bit more like Warlocks from WoW. With that being said it's just my opinion from what I know about the class and we will all find out in phase 4. (Unless I have missed something along the way and it's very likely as I haven't been keeping up with summoner and such.) As for needing line of sight of your pet or to target them to pull of some abilities. Well it may be something we need to consider but I doubt that will be the case but just like saying that you need the pet to be bigger so you can pick it out in a crowd is kind of a poor excuse for a couple of reasons.Â

1) As stated they do seem to float quite high off the ground. (Granted this may not be the case for all of them though.)

2) If you can't pick them out because of all the weapon/spell effects going of then go into your settings turn some of them off.

3) The summons have a pretty distinct look to them so couple that with turning off effects from other players should make them easier to spot.

4) Multiple summoners due to a large group for a raid/FATE or still having trouble after turning off effects from other players? You can easily make a macro to target the Egi.

I understand that a larger pet could make things easier to pick them out yes and please understand that steps can be taken on both sides for various reasons. You could turn spell effects off to better find your Egi while I could turn them off so there isn't another glowing thing in my face.

I'll I'm saying is that the road goes both ways that steps that the melee can take to avoid the Egi being annoying can also be applied to help the summoner keep track of their Egi.

Ashren Dotharl · **07-29-2013, 06:56 PM**

While I have to say I agree with most of what Azthran said, I still can't help but argue that the Egis could benefit from a size increase. As Hyrist said, the Egis appear to be about 2/3rds the size of the Hyur Summoner shown in the original video, so if thats the case would added an extra 1/3rd to their size really be that game breaking for melee classes?

On the topic of pet control however I sincerely hope they add a separate interface for controlling Carbuncle or your Egis. It seems almost useless if they have to take up a party member slot like the Chocobo companion does, and if I have to manually click on my pet in order to casts heals on them or something I'm gonna be disappointed, not to mention that the actually method for micromanaging the chocobo (changing stances and what not) was pretty bad, especially given you had to make a whole separate action bar for it if you wanted to switch stances regularly like I did.

Azthran · **07-29-2013, 07:05 PM**

I honestly don't think it would be game breaking for the reasons I've already mentioned. At the end of the day though it's the dev's choice and who knows maybe summoners will get some sort of ability on a long cool down that buffs up the Egi and makes them larger for a bit similar to Beastial Wrath from wow OR maybe something similar to Astral Flow from FFXI but they take on the full primal form to unleash their ability.

Ashren Dotharl · **07-29-2013, 07:09 PM**

(07-29-2013, 07:05 PM)Azthran Wrote: maybe something similar to Astral Flow from FFXI but they take on the full primal form to unleash their ability.

I doubt they'll have this since we're already going to have the ability to summon Primals in their full form later on down the line (not Summoners specifically). Which makes me wonder, if making Egis just a little larger than they are now is such a hinderance to some, how will they feel having the full scale Ifrit or Garuda taking up their frame of view?

Hyrist · **07-29-2013, 07:15 PM**

(07-29-2013, 06:56 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: While I have to say I agree with most of what Azthran said, I still can't help but argue that the Egis could benefit from a size increase. As Hyrist said, the Egis appear to be about 2/3rds the size of the Hyur Summoner shown in the original video, so if thats the case would added an extra 1/3rd to their size really be that game breaking for melee classes?

That entirely depends on each individual Melee, right? Positioning around monsters in fights is going to differ monster to monster, fight to fight. However, between players, you can micro movements together or play off one another in as you move around. Something along the lines of a Chocobo or NPC? Not so much co-ordination can be done.

It's subjective, it's a matter of where do you feel comfortable? For me, where they are is comfortable, anything larger likely will not be considering, as we've already stated, it levitates off the ground somewhat. If they get any larger we either lift it further above the players to compensate, worsening the viewpoint issue to FFXI degrees, or you bring them closer to the ground, which, in Ifrit's case could cause clipping into it.

Is it game-breaking? No, of course not. I already acknowledge that if the change was made, I would deal with it. But we're talking matters of preference here, and I was stating how my viewpoint simply differs from yours. In my view there is no right or wrong answer here. I know I would feel uncomfortable with them larger than they are, and that's about all I can speak for.

Given the history of Final Fantasy beasts being this gigantic, world changing force which summoners could call upon for aid, I can understand the desires for having something of even a slightly larger side. But I feel as if that context is covered thanks to the Free Company primal system.

On an individual summoner in a large culture of summoners viewpoint - I feel as if the smaller, more personal egis fit the environment, as well as my personal preferences, much better.

We'll see how things pan out once everyone settles into the game and we get a better idea how everything plays out with Arcanist/Scholar/Summoner start fitting in.Â

Who knows? After playing with them for a while, either you, I, or both of us might change our minds. It would be interesting to see this very conversation reversed after gameplay is experienced.

AkhutaiAngura · **07-30-2013, 01:04 AM**

Read the whole first page of posts.. Didn't read the second, so what I'm going to offer could very well already have been said. But, still, it's another one for whatever camp that is.
I understand both sides.. Keep them small,it's less clutter and yada yada. Make them bigger, it's more fitting for what they're supposed to represent, yada yada.

From where I stand - I'm a DPS in every MMO. Usually melee, at that.. Enhance Shaman in WoW, Sentinel in ToR, whatever the staff-wielding class was in Tabula Rasa, etc. I like being in the nitty gritty. With that in mind, I don't know how many times I've had trouble clicking on a mob because my camera was at the wrong angle, and peoples pets were all over the place - Pets being things akin to hunter pets, warlock pets, frostmage pets, Shaman totem pets and wolves, etc. It can get real hairy, real fast up in the melee. I can imagine, as a tank, they likely wish -everyone- ws smaller, just so they can click their stuff easier (That's an exaggeration, but you get the idea.)

I understand that there probably won't be more than 4 summoners, at most, in the largest of raids here, and the 'desired' size of the Egi's is to make them about the size of a normal race.. That's te issue. Say we're in an 8 man raid, and there're two or three summoners.. Those summoners are bringing in 3 more full-sized characters. That's three more full sized characters on the screen, in a battle with mechanics designed for 8.. I see the need to keep them on the smaller side to minimalize the impact. It's a small change if they're bigger, and it's a small change if they're the smaller style.

Ashren Dotharl · **07-30-2013, 03:49 AM**

I'm not sure that the argument of it adding one more person to your screen is entirely valid. Summoner is a caster class, which means if they know how to play, they'll be standing well away from the fight and out of everyones view besides other casts. This means that the only people that melee and tanks are going to see are other melee and tanks. So with that in mind, what is the difference between a Summoner's Egi being the same size as you, or replace the Summoner with another melee DPS? Either way there's another full sized character there to crowd around the enemy. And what about Garuda (who was off handedly mentioned during E3 to be a ranged attacker) who you'll never even see because it will be (presumably) standing next to its Summoner at the back of the fight.

Yes they are more flashy than a normal character, but this only counts if the normal character is standing idle, or just auto attacking and nothing else. In the thick of things when everyone is fighting you're going to be throwing off weapon skills and abilities that are just as flashy if not more flashy than the Egis are, you're going to be more distracting to yourself than my Summon will be.

I will admit that they may make it difficult to click on enemies to some degree if they get in the way, but that can again be said for any player as well who is getting up close and personal. Even as small as they are they still run a big risk of doing this, changing them from 2/3rds to 3/3rds the size of a Hyur wouldn't impact this that much.

As far as camera angles and frame of view go, I spend most of my time in dungeons with my camera panned pretty far out and in most fights (especially when I played Lancer) I was moving around so much that my camera was never in a fixed position, so honestly I don't really see it becoming that big of an issue, and for all we know maybe Egis actually try to position themselves around the enemy as well. (wishful thinking on that)

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