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Norna · **11-19-2013, 03:08 PM**

Alright, I've edited the post to reflect that only the U-tribe is known to be patriarchal.

Ildur · **11-19-2013, 03:09 PM**

Kipih Jakkya might just be missing the tribe letter. Or Squee flucked on their own lore. Again. I remember they had an NPC back in the day that also had the same "Looks like a Seeker, is named like a Keeper" problem and they solved it by claiming she was a half-breed or something.

Also, the only think in Sunseeker society shaped by the nunh is the last name for females and the adquisition of territory to the tribe. There's nothing implying that the nunh takes ownership of it for himself, or that he has more authority than the females who go with him. The only way you could apply patriarchy to their society as described by the lore, is to put too much importance on the breeding aspect of the nunh. Which is, really, the only aspect they have. That's all they do: have children. Any other type of authority is a coincidence.
The U tribe should be seen as the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself (which I know is problematic because there are no other tribes despicted in game). Again, I'm sure Squeenix just flopped on their own lore, but we have to work around their sillyness and the way to do that is to consider the U tribe an anomaly.
Or, I guess you could consider anything that isn't in the game as the anomaly. I guess that depends on where you think the Authorial Intent is.

EDIT: Woops! And this is what happens when you take too long on a post, folks. You miss on the post that was posted one minute before yours. :p
Still, leaving everything there just to state why I don't think the U tribe should be used as the go-to of Seeker culture.

C'kayah Polaali · **11-19-2013, 05:01 PM**

(11-19-2013, 12:19 PM)Mysth Wrote:
usually each tribe will have a single Nunh, while there are a few Tia around.

I think it's been pretty well established that a Seeker tribe is made up of numerous breeding groups. A single Nunh per tribe would imply that there were, at most, only a few thousand Seekers in Eorzea.

As far as the Seeker/Keeper mix goes, you could also argue that Kipih Jakkya's presence supports the idea of this pairing being rare (and possibly troublesome) for tribal Miqo'te. Kipah, after all, is an "urbanized" (as opposed to tribal) Miqo'te.

I've been thinking about a couple of things with regard to Seeker breeding. We know that a Tia can become a Nunh by challenging an existing Nunh, proving himself fitter, and taking that Nunh's place. It's assumed that combat plays a part of this challenge, but is it there anything else? This depends really on what a tribe would consider to be proof of fitness. And how much does female choice come into play? Is an ability to convince the females of a breeding group that you're a better choice part of the challenge? I don't like to compare Miqo'te to lions (ears and tails aside, they're obviously very close to the other sophonts of Eorzea. Much closer than to any sort of cat), but there have been recorded instances of the females of prides killing a dominant male who proves to be a liability. This shows that there's at least some need for a dominant lion to convince the females that he's the correct man for the job, so to speak.

Another thing I've been wondering about is something that biologists sometimes call the "sneaky fucker" theory. A decent number of the children produced by "dominant male" breeding groups of animals, where only the dominant male is supposed to breed, aren't actually children of the dominant male. Instead, while the dominant male is off defending his claim, other males will sneak in and mate with females (often with the enthusiastic cooperation of the females). I'd be surprised if quite a bit of this didn't happen among Seekers. Even if all the Tias are driven out of a breeding group, roaming female Seekers would have ample opportunities to come into contact with Tias while they're away from hearth and home.

Norna · **11-19-2013, 05:38 PM**

Quote:I think it's been pretty well established that a Seeker tribe is made up of numerous breeding groups.Â

Yeah, but "tribe" can be used both for the prefix-tribe and "tribe" as in a particular tribe, which is probably what S-E meant (so if X'ehl Tia is born into a tribe already lead by X'hyr Nunh, they're both from the X-tribe, yet if X'ehl leaves with a bunch of women and becomes X'ehl Nunh, they will still be X-tribe, but they will also be individual tribes, I assume, anyway).

Quote:I've been thinking about a couple of things with regard to Seeker breeding. We know that a Tia can become a Nunh by challenging an existing Nunh, proving himself fitter, and taking that Nunh's place. It's assumed that combat plays a part of this challenge, but is it there anything else?

Going off-canon and into speculation for a bit, I always assumed that of the elders of whichever tribe select possible new Nunhs from available Tia (and the ones left over/those chosen but not wishing to become Nunh yet generally leaving their birth-tribe). The one tribe we have a sample of, the U-tribe, already have hunting rites of passage for everyone, so I guess they would already be proven hunters. Their Nunh is also known for his mental (according to at least one NPC) and physical prowess and is also known for his time in the Company of Heroes. Maybe there's a test of wit/wisdom/experience as well.

It's possible that in these more open times (with Sun/Moon crosses and more and more Miqo'te living outside of tribal and clannish groups), being a distinguished hero/adventurer/mercenary might also be taken into consideration (maybe this is why that Tia joined the Scions).

We do know that there is a battle/duel, but not if it is considered ceremonial and traditional, or if it is a no-holds barred, sand-kicked in eyes, blows below the belt death match.

On the "sneaky fucker" thing and choices for the women; Miqo'te are not lions, they have their humanity going for them. I imagine that a Tia that is generally rejected by the women might find his way to challenging the current Nunh blocked by various obstacles (if there is no Tia to gatekeep an injured/sick Nunh, I could see a particularly dominant woman insisting on "testing" the Tia), and if he wins, he'll probably be either driven out by them, or a more acceptable Tia is encouraged to beat the snot outta him (seriously, any Tia trying to take over a tribe that wants nothing to do with him IS NOT thinking ahead, and his poor judgment would probably lead to exile from the tribe he believed he'd taken over, simply on the grounds that he has no forethought and is therefore a lousy protector).

Of course, once a majority-approved Nunh has won, he does not have automatic rights to every woman in the tribe. It is likely that a few put up with it because they don't particularly mind this Nunh (and I wont go into my theories about Miqo'te sexuality and norms, suffice to say that even humans in our world don't need love to have sex), and a few might sneak with a Tia behind his back, but my theory is that this is considered extremely rude and insulting behavior (in this case, it is more acceptable to elope).

Likely, most of the women not attracted to the current Nunh either bide their time for a better Nunh, or leave, either with or without a Tia of their choice, just like how Tia who are not considered Nunh material leave for greener pastures.

Okay, this became a longer speculation than I intended so I'll stop now.

C'kayah Polaali · **11-19-2013, 07:20 PM**

(11-19-2013, 05:38 PM)Mysth Wrote:
Quote:I think it's been pretty well established that a Seeker tribe is made up of numerous breeding groups.Â
Yeah, but "tribe" can be used both for the prefix-tribe and "tribe" as in a particular tribe, which is probably what S-E meant (so if X'ehl Tia is born into a tribe already lead by X'hyr Nunh, they're both from the X-tribe, yet if X'ehl leaves with a bunch of women and becomes X'ehl Nunh, they will still be X-tribe, but they will also be individual tribes, I assume, anyway).

I hate that this is the case. I would much rather that there were different terms for prefix-tribe, sub-tribe and breeding group.

LiadansWhisper · **11-19-2013, 07:42 PM**

(11-19-2013, 07:20 PM)C Wrote:
(11-19-2013, 05:38 PM)Mysth Wrote:
Quote:I think it's been pretty well established that a Seeker tribe is made up of numerous breeding groups.Â
Yeah, but "tribe" can be used both for the prefix-tribe and "tribe" as in a particular tribe, which is probably what S-E meant (so if X'ehl Tia is born into a tribe already lead by X'hyr Nunh, they're both from the X-tribe, yet if X'ehl leaves with a bunch of women and becomes X'ehl Nunh, they will still be X-tribe, but they will also be individual tribes, I assume, anyway).

I hate that this is the case. I would much rather that there were different terms for prefix-tribe, sub-tribe and breeding group.

"Band" would fit. Â For instance, Native Americans had larger "tribal" groups that gave them their name (Lakota Sioux, Apache, Cherokee, to name a few), but many bands that were part of the greater tribe, but moved and lived separately.

Jomoru · **11-19-2013, 08:24 PM**

after wandering around LL counting Miqote npcs and checking their eyes I find 28 Seekers 9 keepers and 2 miqote with covered eyes.Â

There is a slight tendency towards Seekers looking like rogues and pirates, but that's only a very slight tendency and they can be found in respectable fields as well.

There are alot of miqote in service industry jobs(so many waitresses and prostitutes) all seekers.

The game generally gives a single name to Seekers but two names ot Keepers, this is not absolute but a slight trend that is broken at least once in LL. Similarly Keepers generally do not have an apostrophe in their names.

Now onto Uldah there are 8 miqote npcs in all of the city. Â Divided evenly between the two clans. The majority seem to be adventurers there, asside from the three dancers. There are no males and none where named.

Gridania has a grand total of 14 Miqote 7 seeker, 6 keeper 1 masked individual using Keeper naming schemes. The Keepers generally seem to be local while the seekers seem to be adventurers there.

Based on the archery quest line there seems to have been a recent push since the Calamity for more Keepers to urbanize in Gridania where previously they had not, also Keeper archery seems to include trained animals which is not a part of the teachings one generally gets. Could this potentially mean that a future archery job that includes the training of animals might include more Keeper lore?

shotgunbadger · **11-19-2013, 09:05 PM**

I could see them using Keepers to introduce Beastmaster.

FreelanceWizard · **11-19-2013, 10:11 PM**

Wow, I'm late to this thread. Smile

Every dev post I've been able to find regarding miqo'te is summarized and linked in this post.

To the best of my knowledge, other than the U tribe, there's never been a statement from SE either way on whether Seekers are patriarchal. It seems to me that's what they were trying to get at, but then there's enough waffling in the lore that I don't think the power dynamics of the "average" Seeker society can be simplified that way. Nunhs obviously hold some soft power (after all, they control who gets to bed whom in a socially acceptable manner), but they don't hold a lot of direct power. Within those guidelines, I feel a player has a lot of leeway on the "dark and squicky dial" for their character's particular band/subtribe/etc. in the territory from which they hail.

TBH, the reason male adventurer NPCs you see are Tia is because Nunh have a societal duty to stay in the hunting ground, breed, and probably assist in securing it (since that's how they got it in the first place; dev post). Tia, not having such a responsibility, are more free to go out and adventure.

C'kayah Polaali · **11-19-2013, 11:41 PM**

(11-19-2013, 05:38 PM)Mysth Wrote: On the "sneaky fucker" thing and choices for the women; Miqo'te are not lions, they have their humanity going for them.

The "sneaky fucker" theory doesn't apply only to lions (and for the record I'm not a big fan of drawing parallels between Miqo'te and any kind of cat), it's pretty common in any group of animals where a dominant male is "supposed to" have exclusive access to females: there are plenty of various ruminants, monkeys, apes, etc that exhibit this. For that matter, while human societies aren't built like this, there's still plenty of "sneaky fucker" behavior among us, all throughout history.

allgivenover · **11-19-2013, 11:50 PM**

(11-19-2013, 03:09 PM)Ildur Wrote: Kipih Jakkya might just be missing the tribe letter. Or Squee flucked on their own lore. Again. I remember they had an NPC back in the day that also had the same "Looks like a Seeker, is named like a Keeper" problem and they solved it by claiming she was a half-breed or something.

I don't have the time to find the post, but SE confirmed some time ago that there was some mixing between the clans, and that's why we would see some Seekers with Keeper features and vice versa.

FreelanceWizard · **11-20-2013, 12:17 AM**

(11-19-2013, 11:50 PM)allgivenover Wrote: I don't have the time to find the post, but SE confirmed some time ago that there was some mixing between the clans, and that's why we would see some Seekers with Keeper features and vice versa.

Here's the post.

Norna · **11-20-2013, 06:30 AM**

On the topic of Sun/Moon Miqo'te, I think I'm gonna take a stroll around the world and see how many I can find, using these criteria:

Moon - Grey or white facial stripes, pointed teeth, round pupils, Moon-lore name
Sun - Brown or none facial stripes, flat teeth, slit pupils, Sun-lore name

Anyone who have at least one trait from each would be considered to have ancestry of both (assuming that the majority of them wont just be hearkening back to a time when they were one/adoption).

LiadansWhisper · **11-20-2013, 06:33 AM**

Don't forget that some Miqo NPCs exhibit all the traits of one tribe, but have a name that doesn't fit. Â Whether this indicates they're urbanized or not isn't clear.

Norna · **11-20-2013, 06:48 AM**

(11-20-2013, 06:33 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Don't forget that some Miqo NPCs exhibit all the traits of one tribe, but have a name that doesn't fit. Â Whether this indicates they're urbanized or not isn't clear.

Like A'brohka; she looks like a stereotypical Moon Miqo'te (dark, bluish-grey skin, round eyes, fangs and so on) and is with the all-women Sanguine Sirens, yet she clearly has recent enough ancestry of the Antelope tribe to have their prefix.

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