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Ignacius

08-21-2015, 01:58 PM
(08-21-2015, 01:25 PM)Intaki Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2015, 12:57 PM)Ignacius Wrote: [ -> ]If one person thought Scott was funny out of 10 and most simply put him on ignore because his jokes aren't funny, not only is the character not "funny" no matter how much the player wants him to be, he's probably not funny because the player isn't really that funny.
This seems rather arbitrary.

If nine people don't think Scott is witty, but one person does think Scott is witty, then the only conclusion we can reach is that Scott is witty (but only to a certain segment of the population).

You can not simply accept the opinion of the majority as fact simply because the majority hold that opinion. You most certainly can not do so in a subjective realm such as humor or wit.

Well, unfortunately, "witty" is hugely subjective and it is therefore determined by the audience.  One out of ten people might think Orrin Hatch is funny, that doesn't make Orrin Hatch funny.

And, very tellingly, if I told you Orrin Hatch is funny, that DEFINITELY doesn't make him funny.

It's not arbitrary (if anything, what I said was entirely related to proportion, so by definition it isn't arbitrary).

Give you an example.  If I say I'm going to play a "witty" character.  I show up and someone tells my character off.  If my response was, "lol u dumb, suk it", not a single person in this thread is going to say that's a witty response.  It doesn't get better if I write, Character A tells you off in a biting way that humbles you.  No one in a group setting is going to buy that.

In neither case would it be made better by insisting that the character is witty because, and this is important, that's metagaming.  And that means that, even in physical reactions, you cannot impose an expectation upon the audience.  It's certainly not going to happen in a conversational context.

Now, you can find some wiggle room, but wit and humor DO have definitions and they are 100% developed by reception.  And the above examples weren't provided for hyperbole, I'm using a pair of examples that we, as RPers, understand completely as being insufficient for wit or humor.  That's entirely subjective, because there ARE people who would find both of those to be sufficient.  However, in an open RP setting, neither of those is acceptable.

It's no different if someone's character says "You don't stand a chance" and the response is, Character A laughs, "Fool, I have something for you to suck on!"  It's no more witty.  We certainly recognize it as not being witty.  And having someone try to pass that off as wit is a failure.

Here's the point of all of this, this is all absolutely true no matter whether the player was sincere in his attempt or not.  Humor and wit, if they're based on any one thing, are not based on the intent of the speaker.  It does not matter whether that was the best the player could do or if the player intentionally meant for the other players to recognize the bad flub of wit to show his characters' lack of intelligence, we recognize that the statement lacks wit.  We, as an audience, define that as being witless, humorless, and pretty much groan-worthy whether it was intentional or not.

Now, you're not likely to get 100% of people to call it that (I'm sure there are some people playing CoD where that's considered particularly acute) and you'll never get 100% of people to universally agree on anything (I hear there are people who don't like the Painkiller album).  But we do define that, and that means that the relative wit of a person can be limited.  That limit is set by our wit.  We decide what poor, average, and genius are based on whether we find it pathetic, we could do that, or we still have no idea where they got last thirty seconds of awesome statements.

Certainly, if the most intelligent people disappeared from the face of the Earth, things will be considered genius that are considered pedestrian today, and that's one of the reasons why trying to intentionally play wit is such a risk.  Because you can fail spectacularly, and your failure will be determined by your audience, not your intention.

Berrod Armstrong

08-21-2015, 01:59 PM
(08-21-2015, 01:52 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2015, 01:22 PM)A'rklonn Sargonnai Wrote: [ -> ]The problem with the entire topic itself is that while you say it is to spark debate, the topic you chose is about sensitive subjects that can be perceived as inflammatory or judgmental to some. It is a risky topic, and risky topics have the result of creating often negative responses. The truth is, the very nature of your topic asks if a witty character can be played by the 'dumb'. The topic in itself is a veiled insult, and seems backhanded towards those who may or may not be dumb in the eyes of yourself or others. This is the cost for even starting such a topic and use such wording as dumb. Heat, kitchen, et cetera. But on to the topic proper. I'm no good with quote trees, they're annoying to read, so I'll grab what I can.

Yes, I will admit that I bit off more than I could chew when it came to the initial phrasing. And while I can see from your perspective and I think intelligence can easily be improved, I still think a character is more defined by how others perceive them, not how the player itself intends to play them.

To some, my character is highly intelligent, to others, she's a cowardly idiot who hides behind others like a mouse. If someone icly or oocily thinks my character is stupid, I will not scoff at them and say "BUT SHE'S A GENIUS." At best, I'll ask them why and improve based on their criticism. You cannot force others to think your character is funny or witty because they are highly subjective and flexible concepts, but if nobody ever laughs at your jokes and you get angry because of that, it's your problem. You're not improving. People are too sensitive about criticism. I get annoyed at roleplayers who claim their characters are highly intelligent, and then proceed to do stupid things expecting no-one to rise an eyebrow.

I phrased things incorrectly and presented myself as a judge for intelligence-Something I am not. I am, however, someone who gets deeply annoyed when there's a huge IC/OOC dissonance when it comes to the perception of a character.
Might be time for a change of the question in the OP/topic then! Phrase it as clearly as you can and it might be that you find some more agreement.

Paradox

08-21-2015, 01:59 PM
Quote:Just because you tell me your character is an absolute genius does not mean my character will clap their hands and cheer whenever they announce cats are reptiles. Because that's stupid. Why would anyone dumb down THEIR character so that your seems like a "genius"?

Are you telling me that if a "genius" character approaches mine, says cats are reptiles, my character should nod and say: "WHOA! Really!? I thought cats were fish!" Simply because I don't promote my character as smarter or as smart as theirs?
At this point, the examples are starting to get silly. No one in any right mind, even an idiot, would try to convince someone of anything like that IC. It's gone beyond a person who can't fully back up they are a genius, and are going into cloudcuckoolander territory. Anyone who plays a genius character and would even attempt something like that is trolling, and it's a terrible example to what is supposed to be a serious topic. There's a vast difference between a genius character getting a few details wrong a player may or may not have, and someone just spouting nonsense.  I've never seen anyone who plays a character they're attempting to put off as highly intelligent do anything like that unless they were IC trying to make someone else look ignorant.


I also want to know where all these people are who brag oocly about their characters being geniuses who then talk like idiots. Are they in the tall grass like some kind of Pokémon? Because I have yet to see any of them. I suppose it's hard to grasp an example of this when I haven't seen any such thing, but I guess that's just differing experiences.

Edit: I agree, Berrod. I think that really is the best idea at this point. Berrod Obama for president of Eorzea, 2016. :3

LiadansWhisper

08-21-2015, 02:02 PM
Against my better judgement, I'm going to reply to this.

Can non-witty players portray witty characters and do it well?

Yes.  I've seen it happen.  It was the hardest thing for those players to pull off, and they were scared and worried that they wouldn't, but they worked hard and they succeeded.  And we loved them for the effort they put into those characters, and we loved them because they were awesome people in general.

That's really all that needs to be said.

This thread comes across, to me, as an attempt to tell certain players that they're just not smart enough to portray their characters.

The reality is, most non-witty people will never - not ever - attempt to portray a witty character.  In fact, I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen it attempted.  It's really out of the comfort zone for most players to RP something they don't feel qualified to portray.  The ones who DO attempt to pull it off?  They should get kudos for making that attempt, not threads telling them that they're "dumb" and shouldn't try.

Dodgy

I've yet to meet a single "dumb" person roleplaying.  I've met young, inexperienced roleplayers, but I've never met a dumb roleplayer.

Lydia Lightfoot

08-21-2015, 02:06 PM
I feel like this topic has become argument for the sake of argument. Whatever the intention of the topic was, it doesn't seem like anyone here has any intention of changing a pre-existing opinion.

At the end of the day, nobody has any control over anybody else, anyway. If someone's roleplaying a supposedly very intelligent toon and they want to sit there typing "HERP DERP BERDERGLEBERP" or whatever, they're paying the same subscription fee and have the right to enjoy their time in the game however they want. If another player's suspension of disbelief is threatened, and it truly bothers them to the point of not being able to overlook it, the blacklist exists for a reason.

I vote for closure of the topic so that it'll stop popping up on the "Latest Theads" sidebar and some other more constructive topics can get fair visibility.

Dis

08-21-2015, 02:09 PM
(08-21-2015, 01:41 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2015, 01:10 PM)Glioca Sargonnai Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2015, 10:44 AM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]People who get offended when your "non-genius" character out-smarts them. I speak of those people. 

I have a problem with the "non-genius" character outsmarts a genius theory. 

Every character is capable of displaying a certain level of intelligence and wit, based on the player of said character being able to adequately display that intelligence.  That said, people are also capable of playing characters who are 'less intelligent or knowledgeable' than they personally are about certain subjects.

As an audience, I can perceive a character to be more or less intelligent than they actually are.  However, as a player, if I'm going out of my way to 'outstrip' a character who claims to be a genius when my character would clearly have no idea what this other character is talking about, that's akin to me trying to deliberately shut that individual down with OOC information.

A good example is my character Liviana.  If someone was talking to Liviana, and the subject of aether suddenly came up in the conversation, despite the fact that I've read about the different types of aether, and the common methods of utilizing aether for magic in game, Liviana has no idea about the details of such.

Say that someone tells her that expelling aether from inside the body is the way to practice arcanima.  I'm aware that the method they're talking about using isn't arcanima, but thaumaturgy.  I know this, from past RP experience, and from reading while playing the game. 

Liviana isn't a 'genius' when it comes to aether at all.  And while I can send that player a tell saying, 'C'mon now, you know that's wrong," Liviana has to reply accordingly.  She just does not know.  I'm under no obligation to have my non-genius character comment on a subject that he or she knows absolutely nothing about. 

A lot of cases of a non-genius character outsmarting a genius character seem to boil down to that type of situation. 

Character A says something to seem intelligent, even if Player A knows that the information they're giving is wrong, to try and impress Character B.
Character B corrects Character A, even if Character B is meant to be the less intelligent of the two on that subject matter, because Player B knows that what Character A said is wrong.

That isn't a case of a non-genius character outsmarting a genius character, but instead one player using their character as a vehicle to tell the opposite player that they are in fact wrong and their character is not a genius.  And while this isn't an 'absolute' example of any kind, that is hands down the most common example of a non-genius outsmarting a genius that I see portrayed in the RP community.


That's taking OOC IC. That's an entirely different matter. I have characters who are completely ignorant about things I know in the game, that's not the point.

My point was criticizing people who OOCily brag about their character's intelligence and wit, only to say something shockingly stupid when they hop in IC. Say, you are playing a "genius" character, yes? My character is not a genius. They get into a discussion.

Your character says something stupid along the lines of "Cats are reptiles."

... Just because you OOCily claim your character is a genius does not mean everything they say will be intelligent, it does not mean people will perceive them as such. If your character says cats are reptiles, my character will argue against them because of COMMON SENSE.

Common sense is not a rare feature for a character.

Just because you tell me your character is an absolute genius does not mean my character will clap their hands and cheer whenever they announce cats are reptiles. Because that's stupid. Why would anyone dumb down THEIR character so that your seems like a "genius"?

Are you telling me that if a "genius" character approaches mine, says cats are reptiles, my character should nod and say: "WHOA! Really!? I thought cats were fish!" Simply because I don't promote my character as smarter or as smart as theirs?

You can't force the idea that a character is a genius unless you manage to keep intelligent conversation flowing. If you say stupid shit, no matter how "amazingly intelligent" you claim your character is, it simply isn't going to be received well.

I think you missed the point of my example.  I was specifically talking about a situation where one character obviously knows more about a certain topic than another character.  Not specifically about a character who says something that is common knowledge as being incorrect.  Hence why I used aether as an example, and not animal species.  It's easy to know that a cat is a cat.  And common sense says if someone tells you a cat is not a cat, you can disagree with them.

I'm talking about when someone says something about a topic that could potentially be obscure to your character, and your character corrects them even if said character wouldn't know they're wrong, but you as the player know they're wrong.

It might not be received well, no, but you have every right to try and portray that kind of character.  Even if it is 'above your means' or 'out of your comfort zone'.
I'd rather see a player try and grow as a player by playing out of their comfort zone, than I would see them stagnate by never playing anything challenging to them.

Caspar

08-21-2015, 02:10 PM
Yeah, I agree. I don't mind what Sasha says now that she's elaborated, but I'll never come around to the idea that I have a noblesse oblige to help players rping above their station to aim lower. I personally wouldn't mind it locked.

LadyRochester

08-21-2015, 02:11 PM
Quote:A'rkalonn Sargonnai
At this point, the examples are starting to get silly. No one in any right mind, even an idiot, would try to convince someone of anything like that IC. It's gone beyond a person who can't fully back up they are a genius, and are going into cloudcuckoolander territory. Anyone who plays a genius character and would even attempt something like that is trolling, and it's a terrible example to what is supposed to be a serious topic. There's a vast difference between a genius character getting a few details wrong a player may or may not have, and someone just spouting nonsense.  I've never seen anyone who plays a character they're attempting to put off as highly intelligent do anything like that unless they were IC trying to make someone else look ignorant.


I also want to know where all these people are who brag oocly about their characters being geniuses who then talk like idiots. Are they in the tall grass like some kind of Pokémon? Because I have yet to see any of them. I suppose it's hard to grasp an example of this when I haven't seen any such thing, but I guess that's just differing experiences.

Edit: I agree, Berrod. I think that really is the best idea at this point. Berrod Obama for president of Eorzea, 2016. :3


It was a mere example. I'll give you a more realistic one.

This character called him/herself a "strategic genius". However, all the "strategies" he came up with were often extremely reckless and stupid. Instead of sneaking into an enemy camp, they wanted to storm in and rescue their friends while murdering everyone there. My character has a weakness to aether--First thing this person did? Send her off to the likes of Mor Dhona, of course. Kill enemies? Blow up a bomb at our home to send them off.

This person had ideas like this--And referred to him/herself as a "strategic genius"

Paradox

08-21-2015, 02:17 PM
(08-21-2015, 02:11 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:A'rkalonn Sargonnai
At this point, the examples are starting to get silly. No one in any right mind, even an idiot, would try to convince someone of anything like that IC. It's gone beyond a person who can't fully back up they are a genius, and are going into cloudcuckoolander territory. Anyone who plays a genius character and would even attempt something like that is trolling, and it's a terrible example to what is supposed to be a serious topic. There's a vast difference between a genius character getting a few details wrong a player may or may not have, and someone just spouting nonsense.  I've never seen anyone who plays a character they're attempting to put off as highly intelligent do anything like that unless they were IC trying to make someone else look ignorant.


I also want to know where all these people are who brag oocly about their characters being geniuses who then talk like idiots. Are they in the tall grass like some kind of Pokémon? Because I have yet to see any of them. I suppose it's hard to grasp an example of this when I haven't seen any such thing, but I guess that's just differing experiences.

Edit: I agree, Berrod. I think that really is the best idea at this point. Berrod Obama for president of Eorzea, 2016. :3


It was a mere example. I'll give you a more realistic one.

This character called him/herself a "strategic genius". However, all the "strategies" he came up with were often extremely reckless and stupid. Instead of sneaking into an enemy camp, they wanted to storm in and rescue their friends while murdering everyone there. My character has a weakness to aether--First thing this person did? Send her off to the likes of Mor Dhona, of course. Kill enemies? Blow up a bomb at our home to send them off.

This person had ideas like this--And referred to him/herself as a "strategic genius"
Fair enough. I won't argue semantics at this point because I don't know the situation. And it seems like this one individual was just a bad example and not a majority. I haven't seen anyone say they were a genius character ooc and expect it to be acknowledged, so I suppose you've just have some really negative experiences with people like that. I haven't run into it, hell, I rarely talk to people OOC and just let their IC do the talking. Neither here nor there though.

But yes, this entire topic has gone off topic I think, and it is a sensitive subject. In any case, it is possible to play a genius if you aren't, if you're willing to do the work. It just sounds like that individual wasn't willing to do the work. Seems more lazy then lacking in intelligence. But that's me.

Ignacius

08-21-2015, 02:17 PM
(08-21-2015, 01:45 PM)Caspar Wrote: [ -> ]Ignacius I think you should read what I'm writing a little more carefully. You're inferring actions I don't take. I moderated a forum like this; I'm no stranger to helping others write better. I was as honest as you were. But where you aim to put someone in their place, I augmented them, because Rp isn't acting to me but group writing, and the group element means you help others achieve the story they want to write as well as your own. We're not performance artists.

There is no "in their place".  There are simply things that are beyond our ability.  I will never win Wimbledon, as the famous example goes.  I'm 30.  I could start playing tennis now, I could even get good, but there's not a cold chance in Hell of me ever becoming one of the world's best tennis players.

Likewise, you can try to become a better writer, but if you're starting to say, "Anyone can be witty if they try," you're setting someone up to continue making the same mistake.  It wouldn't be a problem, except failures at wit are something we are intentionally raised to groan at.

Think about it.  What if I slid up to a woman at a bar and I said, "Honey, did it hurt... when you fell from Heaven?"  It is recognized, universally, that this is a cheesy pickup line.  This is not a good way to make a serious attempt at being charming.  At best, people recognize that cheesy pickup line is a humorous attempt to use that recognition to break the ice.  At worst, I just tried something I researched on the internet that was supposed to pick up women and it failed.

But, from reading it, you have no idea what my intention is.  My intention is irrelevant.  Now, imagine that happening, with someone writing this as genuine, over and over, and not understanding why women aren't fawning over his character.

Yeah, people have limits.  You have to be witty to write witty lines, and some people just don't have it and never will.

Now, I'm not going to get into the specifics of my friends' issues, but let me be emphatically clear, she was to insightful discourse what that pick up line was to charm.  It was so bad, people thought she was just trolling them and were freezing her out of conversations I had invited her into.

Is it pretty?  No.  I explained it as gently as I could.  I object strenuously to your characterization of putting her in her place, particularly since you weren't present for the situation.  But I don't do this just as a forum moderator, I do this with people in bars that other players are ignoring.  Those are the people who really need the help, and most of the time it's because they've absolutely overreached themselves.

There's only so much you can do, and all the hoping in the world doesn't make it any easier to sit through.  I certainly can't force people to just take her intention as-is even when the way she wrote her character, at her best, was absolutely not getting her intention across.

I'm alright with being disagreed with in my approach, but for someone to try to say that if you just try hard enough, you'll become as witty as you want, I can't agree with that.  I've seen people try as hard as they possibly can for a fairly decent length of time and not get better.

At some point, we have to face that reality.  You have to be able to tell someone that, "I know you're trying, but it's not coming across.  But you're great at this other thing!  Look, you aren't any less of a person for not having this trait you don't have.  What did you get the best response doing?  Maybe we could focus on that?"

There are better ways to do it than to say, "Look, I know you're trying, but it's not coming across.  You just need to try harder!  I'm sure you'll get it."  Because you can be reasonably sure that there will be quite a few people who we want to retain as RPers, but won't ever get what they're aiming at.

Caspar

08-21-2015, 02:27 PM
(Edit) forget it, this is going nowhere.

Ignacius

08-21-2015, 02:30 PM
(08-21-2015, 02:17 PM)A Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2015, 02:11 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:A'rkalonn Sargonnai
At this point, the examples are starting to get silly. No one in any right mind, even an idiot, would try to convince someone of anything like that IC. It's gone beyond a person who can't fully back up they are a genius, and are going into cloudcuckoolander territory. Anyone who plays a genius character and would even attempt something like that is trolling, and it's a terrible example to what is supposed to be a serious topic. There's a vast difference between a genius character getting a few details wrong a player may or may not have, and someone just spouting nonsense.  I've never seen anyone who plays a character they're attempting to put off as highly intelligent do anything like that unless they were IC trying to make someone else look ignorant.


I also want to know where all these people are who brag oocly about their characters being geniuses who then talk like idiots. Are they in the tall grass like some kind of Pokémon? Because I have yet to see any of them. I suppose it's hard to grasp an example of this when I haven't seen any such thing, but I guess that's just differing experiences.

Edit: I agree, Berrod. I think that really is the best idea at this point. Berrod Obama for president of Eorzea, 2016. :3


It was a mere example. I'll give you a more realistic one.

This character called him/herself a "strategic genius". However, all the "strategies" he came up with were often extremely reckless and stupid. Instead of sneaking into an enemy camp, they wanted to storm in and rescue their friends while murdering everyone there. My character has a weakness to aether--First thing this person did? Send her off to the likes of Mor Dhona, of course. Kill enemies? Blow up a bomb at our home to send them off.

This person had ideas like this--And referred to him/herself as a "strategic genius"
Fair enough. I won't argue semantics at this point because I don't know the situation. And it seems like this one individual was just a bad example and not a majority. I haven't seen anyone say they were a genius character ooc and expect it to be acknowledged, so I suppose you've just have some really negative experiences with people like that. I haven't run into it, hell, I rarely talk to people OOC and just let their IC do the talking. Neither here nor there though.

But yes, this entire topic has gone off topic I think, and it is a sensitive subject. In any case, it is possible to play a genius if you aren't, if you're willing to do the work. It just sounds like that individual wasn't willing to do the work. Seems more lazy then lacking in intelligence. But that's me.

To be fair, I think people confuse knowledge and intelligence.  Some of the most proficient people on the planet aren't geniuses, they just tried exceptionally hard to excel in their subject.

My mother very clearly explained to me one day that both she and her sister went into nursing.  Her sister was very obviously more intelligent.  She could pick up concepts in one reading that might have taken my mother two or three passes, and my mother always had to run through processes and lists because she couldn't just do it mentally.

Yet my mother is almost unquestionably the better nurse, and that's because she worked harder.  She read it two or three times until she got it, whereas my aunt might not have read it until right before the test.  She had processes, so she never skipped anything.  She worked HARD to be the nurse she is, and she's more knowledgeable than most of the doctors she works with.

You do not need to play a genius to play a master artisan.  You don't need to be Einstein to be a master blacksmith or to be an award-winning scientist.

Intelligence is a raw trait.  It's often obvious in conversation.  It is NOT a measure of technical ability.  It often helps, but it's not the hallmark of all great scientific minds.  There is absolutely no shame in not being particularly intelligent.

It's sort of that last bastion of elitism.  We can now have plus-sized models but people can't say, "You know what, I'm not a genius, but that's never meant I haven't been the best at what I do."

It just makes it hard to play someone with that kind of intelligence because it takes often hours to come up with good responses and solutions that it might take certain people a few minutes.  That doesn't make people worse as people.  There are people of great intelligence who could come up with quick and effective solutions, but never do.  They may seem smart in conversation, but that doesn't mean effective or accomplished necessarily.

Oli!

08-21-2015, 02:36 PM
(08-21-2015, 02:27 PM)Caspar Wrote: [ -> ]The heartfelt example was touching, I suppose, but I'm not convinced. In the end, rather than helping your friend learn the skills necessary to sell their concept, you told them not to do it. If that's your approach, I'll decline from following the same line of reasoning. Sure, good feelings alone can't make you succeed in anything, and people have their limits. What does it say to your friend to tell her she's reached hers? I'll be as blunt as I need to, but if prefer to actually inform and structure writing towards a goal, because that is what I actually can offer help with.


I could be wrong, but I think what he was trying to get at, really, is that some things cannot be informed and structured.

That's part of the reason why some traits, such as being witty, funny, or charming, or other things like that, are so sought after both in real life and in terms of writing; it requires a certain amount of context and situation reading that cannot be immediately or quickly manufactured. It's like the line between Intelligence and what some people call Book Smarts; Intelligence is genetically informed, and cultivated over a lifetime. Book Smarts can be bought with information, memory, and man-hours. That's not to say that one type or the other is inherently better or useless compared to the other, but it is to say that these things are very, very different.

In the instance that you run into something that cannot be manufactured, it's okay to admit that that's something that will never be grasped. As an example, as much as I wanted to be when I was younger, I currently accept that I will never be a physicist, as my mind cannot hold onto necessary information long enough. I can't work harder at that, or manufacture a better memory, because it's a physical disability.

The question I'm sure you're asking at this point is whether that's really comparable to something that isn't physical, such as Being Witty. It isn't in a strictly literal sense, but there's a certain hard cap when it comes to the hours needed to learn something like that, and the amount of time that someone actually has. In other words, much like something physical, it stops becoming something that can be manufactured within a lifetime. This brings us back around to the Tennis example; yes, just about anyone short of the physically disabled can learn how to play tennis. If you sink enough hours into it, you can even be great at it. However, eventually you reach the point where there is just not enough time left to learn something, because you won't live long enough. Some things, such as being witty, really do require half a lifetime or more; if you're already there, and you're not witty, then, as bad as it might sound, there's a very solid chance you won't be. I'm not trying to be harsh or anything, it's just that a lot of things work this way. Sports, art, science, wit, and more.

And that's all without getting into even more technicalities, such as the physical state needed to play sports, the mental attributes needed to be witty, etcetera. Those are real factors as well. That said, however, most people do have the capacity to be witty, and usually choose not to be, due to social limitations, shyness, or other things. What is important, however, is that they have the capability. I doubt that anyone in here is truly incapable of being such, though those people are out there.



EDIT: Wow I messed up that quote attempt, fixed it.

Unnamed Mercenary

08-21-2015, 02:41 PM
[[steps in as a mod]]

Just a small reminder to people that if they want to exit the conversation of the thread, there's an unsubscribe button in the bottom left corner. A thread is only "alive" as long as people continue to post in it.

Any attempts at purposely derailing a thread, blanking posts, or making personal attacks is strictly not allowed.

[[exits thread]]

Ignacius

08-21-2015, 02:51 PM
(08-21-2015, 02:27 PM)Caspar Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2015, 02:17 PM)Ignacius Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2015, 01:45 PM)Caspar Wrote: [ -> ]Ignacius I think you should read what I'm writing a little more carefully. You're inferring actions I don't take. I moderated a forum like this; I'm no stranger to helping others write better. I was as honest as you were. But where you aim to put someone in their place, I augmented them, because Rp isn't acting to me but group writing, and the group element means you help others achieve the story they want to write as well as your own. We're not performance artists.

There is no "in their place".  There are simply things that are beyond our ability.  I will never win Wimbledon, as the famous example goes.  I'm 30.  I could start playing tennis now, I could even get good, but there's not a cold chance in Hell of me ever becoming one of the world's best tennis players.

Likewise, you can try to become a better writer, but if you're starting to say, "Anyone can be witty if they try," you're setting someone up to continue making the same mistake.  It wouldn't be a problem, except failures at wit are something we are intentionally raised to groan at.

Think about it.  What if I slid up to a woman at a bar and I said, "Honey, did it hurt... when you fell from Heaven?"  It is recognized, universally, that this is a cheesy pickup line.  This is not a good way to make a serious attempt at being charming.  At best, people recognize that cheesy pickup line is a humorous attempt to use that recognition to break the ice.  At worst, I just tried something I researched on the internet that was supposed to pick up women and it failed.

But, from reading it, you have no idea what my intention is.  My intention is irrelevant.  Now, imagine that happening, with someone writing this as genuine, over and over, and not understanding why women aren't fawning over his character.

Yeah, people have limits.  You have to be witty to write witty lines, and some people just don't have it and never will.

Now, I'm not going to get into the specifics of my friends' issues, but let me be emphatically clear, she was to insightful discourse what that pick up line was to charm.  It was so bad, people thought she was just trolling them and were freezing her out of conversations I had invited her into.

Is it pretty?  No.  I explained it as gently as I could.  I object strenuously to your characterization of putting her in her place, particularly since you weren't present for the situation.  But I don't do this just as a forum moderator, I do this with people in bars that other players are ignoring.  Those are the people who really need the help, and most of the time it's because they've absolutely overreached themselves.

There's only so much you can do, and all the hoping in the world doesn't make it any easier to sit through.  I certainly can't force people to just take her intention as-is even when the way she wrote her character, at her best, was absolutely not getting her intention across.

I'm alright with being disagreed with in my approach, but for someone to try to say that if you just try hard enough, you'll become as witty as you want, I can't agree with that.  I've seen people try as hard as they possibly can for a fairly decent length of time and not get better.

At some point, we have to face that reality.  You have to be able to tell someone that, "I know you're trying, but it's not coming across.  But you're great at this other thing!  Look, you aren't any less of a person for not having this trait you don't have.  What did you get the best response doing?  Maybe we could focus on that?"

There are better ways to do it than to say, "Look, I know you're trying, but it's not coming across.  You just need to try harder!  I'm sure you'll get it."  Because you can be reasonably sure that there will be quite a few people who we want to retain as RPers, but won't ever get what they're aiming at.
The heartfelt example was touching, I suppose, but I'm not convinced. In the end, rather than helping your friend learn the skills necessary to sell their concept, you told them not to do it. If that's your approach, I'll decline from following the same line of reasoning. Sure, good feelings alone can't make you succeed in anything, and people have their limits. What does it say to your friend to tell her she's reached hers? I'll be as blunt as I need to, but if prefer to actually inform and structure writing towards a goal, because that is what I actually can offer help with.

I would (believe me, I was essentially a remedial English teacher for a while) but I cannot make her able to respond to a quick quip.  That's partially a skill, but is absolutely part of a naturally available ability that you can't work out.  I don't hold her in any less esteem because she isn't the rapier wit of a conversation.  She just isn't, and isn't going to be.  That's nothing for her to be hurt or embarrassed about.  There's no way, unless you believe a few years of Brain Age would help, to make her anywhere near the genius she'd want to play.

Normally, people would just not play with her, which was a shame for the community.  She was a great player.

Now, the reason I use her is that she's the one person I can say was not personally intelligent and had to scale back a character from a wild genius to a more technically proficient professional.  The character was far better (and more likable).  Now, intelligence isn't common.

Now, I do this fairly frequently, but it is NOT about intelligence.  Lots of people playing "geniuses" get away with it not because they can get away with it, but because they never say "genius" and we never hold them to that standard.  They aren't particularly witty; we aren't particularly shook up about it because they don't drop a line unless they're sure about it and it's not that often.  And, to be fair, most of the RPers I've met, if they aren't above average intelligence, are at least average enough to give a good account of themselves.  I'm not sure if it's about freezing out the below-average players until most are gone or if we just attract people with naturally higher intellect, but I rarely find myself having to re-explain concepts to people repeatedly because they just don't get it.

No, this is an issue of mine because of charisma, which is so much more common, so much more damaging, and so much more of an education issue.  Because someone acting smarter than they are and failing can be a little irritating.  Someone trying to be funny when they're not is worse.  Someone trying to be more charming than they actually are is downright infuriating and times and outright insulting at worst.  If I had to finger-point to the biggest problem facing new RPers, it's walking into a situation with more swagger than they can back up.

It's something that can be increased with some experience, but charisma is something you simply cannot outrun because there are VERY few guides on the internet that will turn you into a stunning conversationalist.  And while people punching above their wit might get scoffed at and ignored, someone screwing up while hitting on a woman in a bar poorly could get them blacklisted from RP events.  We do NOT have this pleasant of a reaction to someone punching above their weight of charm.

I approach both the same way; they're part of the same problem.  People want to play movie characters, who have intelligence, wit, and charm.  Charm is the hardest to replicate if you don't have it.  Truly intelligent people can get away with a lot just by being quiet when they have nothing to say.  Truly charismatic people are only ever judged by what they say.

And, unfortunately, we fail those people.  If a guy wanders in and tries to pull the stunts on women in a bar that his brothers' friends said they pulled on the women in the dorm in college, we tend to just call those people pigs.  Believe me, they may not be.  And people without real personal charm cannot play a charming character, for the exact same reasons as we're discussing.


The only difference between the two is that we're taught to pity the less intelligent and dislike the socially brutish.
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Hydaelyn Role-Players > Community > RP Discussion > "Witty" characters, can they be roleplayed by the dumb?