Hydaelyn Role-Players

Have to add a disclaimer to my bit about techincal knowledge.

For example, I wanted to play someone who smithed actual materia powder into the weapons itself, in order to make them that much better right from the get go.

At first I was content with this answer, but then realized that just throwing powder into the mix might not be a good idea, so research ensued.

So if your crafting is actually a story element, techincal knowledge is on a "as needed" basis.  But if its not, then you can easily get away with "I do the thing"

(08-19-2015, 11:26 AM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]Before any of you start sniffling, staring at your screen with foggy eyes, banging your fists against the desk as you cry:  "BUT WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE INTELLIGENCE!?"

I would like to say that I am asking about people who roleplay characters and EXPLICITLY state they are geniuses, only to, you know.. Have their characters hardly achieve anything "genius"-worthy because their own wit can't quite catch up to their character.

In essence, can someone fake intelligence without being intelligent themselves?

Keep everything respectful and civil. I just like to spark debate. This is a matter of opinion... Mostly.

No.  Sorry, but, it's impossible to operate outside your own ability.  Rule #2 of roleplaying is, literally, to not RP beyond your means.  Know your limitations.

I should explain.  You don't necessarily have to BE what your RP characters are.  Certainly, Orleans is a somewhat sociopathic mercenary, and I'm an architectural designer in Ohio.  I don't have to be a killer to play a killer.  However, we are taking on dual activities as writers and actors.  And, unfortunately, there are simply attributes we can't do.

If you are not capable of being smart, you can't play a genius character convincingly.  If you aren't capable of being charismatic, you can't play a charming character convincingly.  You may not have to be angry, but if you can't even manage to understand anger, you cannot play a violent and angry character.  You can play what you don't do, but you can't play what you can't play.

This is all related to how people react to your character.  If you say your character is a genius, but you can't be intelligent in conversation and you can't problem solve, other players will not believe you and will, understandably, think that your character thinks he's smarter than he is.

More common is someone trying to play a womanizer without having the slightest clue how to be sly and charming.  I can't tell you how many men slide into a room, thinking they're playing a smooth ladies' man, and come off as a comical asshat (or, worse, get angry because they're hanging out in a corner grimacing angrily at the table and can't seem to attract a woman to hear their sob story).

Even worse (though less common) is the person playing the crazy, murderous sociopath that, at the first sign of drama, becomes a pussy cat.  Play the character, not yourself, and if you can't play the character, don't.

I know my limitations.  I don't play any female characters.  None whatsoever.  I've tried, and I've failed to make it convincing.  I know I don't do it well.  The "women" I've played have always come off as very domineering and masculine, even though I've been trying not to.  And I'm an experienced RPer, I've been doing this for almost two decades.  But I want to be convincing and I simply can't, no matter how much research I do and how hard I try, get a good female character going.  Some of you are good at playing an alternate gender, but I can't to the standard I maintain for myself.

You can always try to broaden your horizons and play someone much, much different from yourself.  Some things, though, you can't do.  Even if you pretend to know things in FFXIV, people will know, if you're not smart in real life, that your character isn't as smart as he wants to be.  It simply bleeds through.

Any technical/book smarts person? Not at all an issue. You most likely have google on your laptop or smartphone within easy access. Any person who wishes to be a doctor or a mathematician can easily get away with it. Things, such as the mathematician even more so because of the fact that a lot of old mathematic principles are named after real people so you can toss any lore friendly name you want and call it things such as Jainquernardian theorem.


Now, being a witty character...I think that's a LOT harder to do so in a satisfactory manner, especially because we are RPers and not a writer of our own story. That is because wit involves an observational, linguistic and emotional intelligence that allows them to pick apart another person for that satisfying retort.

As a writer, not only do you know what every character's hopes and dreams and motivations are (or I hope you do) you can easily construct the encounter where someone of great wit can pick up on their counterpart's words or just be sassy. Not only that, but you have chances of rewrites, drafts and due to the static medium of writing, you can take weeks trying to find that perfect line.

Now as an RP'er? Now your inability (for a lack of a better word) begins to show. Not only do you not know everything about who you are RP'ing with, they are not following a script either that you have set up. Unless they are kind enough to give visual ticks and other queues of weakness for a witty character to pursue, everyone can appear like a stone wall giving nothing for the witty character to easily pull upon. 

Because, to be frank, I find that the witty/genius people we love to think about such as Sherlock, Dr. Cox, Dr. House, Light and Lelouche, Winston Churchill (really, look at the quotes he is famous for, you need an entire burn ward dedicated to him)  are not solely fun because of their machinations in the overall plot but for their person to person interactions. To get that perfect, scathing, intelligent tirade that Dr. Cox can pull off takes talent.

This is especially true because the aspect I am talking about tends to be antagonistic in nature and thus a form of power and as RPC has shown, power without due justification causes a tizzy. You cannot type "Says a series of biting remarks that sends you into tears" because you cannot control the emotional reaction of your rp partner. 

It is much akin to the other forum post about too many "Fearless" characters, becoming someone who can instill fear with their presence requires playing the part convincingly. Just look at the "Describe a person's character with a gif" thread, people like Berrod can get the gifs of Armstrong from Fullmetal Alchemist because he plays the character properly and convincingly. Whether or not its the sort of character he set out to make when he made Berrod doesn't matter, his reputation is now perceived as that. 

Likewise, being perceived as witty, a genius requires the proper attitude to be done correctly and I feel that in this particular case, to be witty as a character requires wit of the player especially given the comparatively fast-paced nature of RP in comparison to script and novels.

TL;DR: Book smarts? EASILY faked due to it being grounded in facts. Wit is subjective and fluid and thus harder to concretely identify. This makes it even more difficult to play without possessing the wit to do so.

I tend to play smart characters and a few geniuses. The answer is to use jargon or otherwise heavily research the subject matter. I studied English, so pretending to be genius in an essay was something of a required job skill for me.

(08-19-2015, 04:02 PM)Sin Wrote: [ -> ]You're not your character.

I have to echo this. A major point of roleplaying for a lot of people is to be something you otherwise aren't/cannot be. It doesn't have to be limited to "geniuses" either.

I'd actually be interested to know just how many players in the RP community can, in real life, wield the weapons their characters do in roleplay to the extent that the players claim their characters can.

Same with crafting. I know several players that have characters who are talented cooks but admit openly that they'd burn water in real life. I have yet to complain about their RP in regards to their cooking.

Does being knowledgeable of whatever subject matter your character is genius in help? Absolutely. Anyone who argues differently needs to reevaluate their stance. 

Is being knowledgeable in such a manner required to roleplay a convincing, "good" (in quotes because relative subjective-ness of the term), immersive "insert-talent here"? Absolutely not. 

And, honestly, it's disheartening to read the responses in this thread that would say otherwise.

Perhaps people do not understand my question.

Can someone who is not intelligent, play someone intelligent? I am talking about people who DON'T do their research or generally describe their character as "witty" and then fail to portray this because they aren't witty themselves in RP.

I am aware you're not your character.
I know this.
I know you're not your character. 
I know you can roleplay a character who exceeds your knowledge.
I know this.

Like saying, "Heheheh, my character is really witty!" 
And then emote something like

"Witty McWit feels his intelligence is threatened, and at the end of the debate, he responds: ' WELL U CAN'T SAY THAT CUS YOUR STOOPID!' "

Could you honestly tell me that's someone portraying an intelligent character properly?
Like... Honestly? This is an extreme case, but it seems like people are missing the point, or perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly.

It's easy to fake knowledge and "book-smarts", you simply whip out google and ta-da, there's your answer. But I speak of wit. Social intelligence. Charisma and word-play. Not knowledge. You can be knowledgeable and dumb. You can fake knowledge. You cannot, however, fake wit.

honestly i go with the rule that, when it comes technical terms, hydaelyn does not operate on the same level as RL does.

so say, my not knowing how to structurally forge a sword does not mean my character does not know how to synthesize one.

(08-19-2015, 06:02 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps people do not understand my question.

Can someone who is not intelligent, play someone intelligent? I am talking about people who DON'T do their research or generally describe their character as "witty" and then fail to portray this because they aren't witty themselves in RP.

I am aware you're not your character.
I know this.
I know you're not your character. 
I know you can roleplay a character who exceeds your knowledge.
I know this.

Like saying, "Heheheh, my character is really witty!" 
And then emote something like

"Witty McWit feels his intelligence is threatened, and at the end of the debate, he responds: ' WELL U CAN'T SAY THAT CUS YOUR STOOPID!' "

Could you honestly tell me that's someone portraying an intelligent character properly?
Like... Honestly? This is an extreme case, but it seems like people are missing the point, or perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly.

It's easy to fake knowledge and "book-smarts", you simply whip out google and ta-da, there's your answer. But I speak of wit. Social intelligence. Charisma and word-play. Not knowledge. You can be knowledgeable and dumb. You can fake knowledge. You cannot, however, fake wit.

It sounds like you don't know what you're asking. A witty person is not the same thing as an intellectual person, though those two personalities can share some common characteristics. 

Wit and intelligence are imperfect concepts, and are usually very subjective. Everyone can be witty or intelligent in their moments, and whether that makes them a witty or intelligent person is largely up to who you ask. Wit is largely recognized by creative language on the fly, so if you can pull off witty remarks, you can pass your character off as a witty character for the most part. 

Ultimately, roleplaying any personality that is outside your own is possible once you've broken down the characteristics that commonly define that personality, and constantly look for opportunities to show those characteristics in RP. Wit is definitely one of the harder ones to do because it heavily relies on improvisation and quick thinking, but even that can be faked with sufficient preparation.

An intellectual is easier because being intellectual is less about how intelligent you are and more about how much you care about intelligence. You can functionally have little real intelligence, but still be an intellectual because you are inquisitive, care about learning, value intelligence in others, and so on. 

Someone mentioned charismatic characters being impossible for non-charismatic people, but that is also incorrect, and I can speak from personal experience as a steep introvert with a very tiny sphere of friends who has successfully played two extroverted socialites who had big social circles and were generally well-received by everyone. It's just a matter of defining what makes a charismatic character what they are, and setting some guidelines for yourself to encourage more sociable behavior.

Obviously, the further the target personality is from your own, and the further it is from your comfort zone, the more discipline and work it will take to pull that character off. It's never impossible, but it might not always be worth it (especially for a main character) if it's always going to be an uphill struggle for you to actualize your character.

tl;dr - Yes, it's possible, it's just harder for some than others.

(08-19-2015, 06:02 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps people do not understand my question.

Can someone who is not intelligent, play someone intelligent? 

...

Maybe I'm just not intelligent enough to answer your question, because you've had many answers. Specific... general... opinions. Many answers.

Sorry you're not receiving what you're expecting from the masses.

Maybe I've played too much D&D, but I don't associate wittiness with intelligence... I uh, associate it with with. INT to me is book-learned knowledge, and has little to do with your ability to articulate yourself, which I tend to associate with charisma and wisdom, which combined tend to be a decent representation of knowledge learned from personal experiences and personality traits.

If being able to write well or communicate well with others, shoot witty banter back and fourth, and use clever turns of phrase was all it took to be intelligent, I'd be incredibly slow in real life and faintly intelligent, if not average, given the time buffer of internet posting.

I think what you're describing is feeling the player writes and RPs poorly and that is affecting your ability to take the character seriously. I can certainly understand that since I have the same impression when someone isn't able to write articulately to such an extreme extent. But I don't know if that necessarily means they're stupid. Inarticulate, sure, but we don't know what they're like in real life.

Roleplaying is, first of all, acting. Shouldn't Robin Williams have acted as a doctor? Shouldn't Jim Carrey have played as a gay, or a lawyer? Because they don't know what it means to really be one and thus "cannot understand/portray them correctly"?

Obviously we're all amateurs at acting, but RP is acting nonetheless, and as years go by roleplaying, so do your acting skills improve. You learn about your roles, you learn to do research where technical knowledge is required. Just as an actor goes from green to veteran.

There is plenty of actors who have played roles of geniuses without being so in real life, and they gave good damn performances too, as well as horrible ones. It all depended on their experience, their preparation, and their acting skills.

We are no different, we simply don't get paid to act.

I don't think that someone needs to be as intelligent as their character but I do think that if their character is meant to be quite clever then they should make an effort to reflect it as best they can.

This goes for pretty much anything, really. If people can sell something to me in a plausible manner then I don't have an issue with it. I do, however, dislike it when people claim that their character is clever, witty or charming but then...don't really reflect it very well at all.

You can usually get by simply by doing research.

(08-19-2015, 05:29 PM)Etienne Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-19-2015, 04:02 PM)Sin Wrote: [ -> ]You're not your character.

I have to echo this. A major point of roleplaying for a lot of people is to be something you otherwise aren't/cannot be. It doesn't have to be limited to "geniuses" either.

I'd actually be interested to know just how many players in the RP community can, in real life, wield the weapons their characters do in roleplay to the extent that the players claim their characters can.

Same with crafting. I know several players that have characters who are talented cooks but admit openly that they'd burn water in real life. I have yet to complain about their RP in regards to their cooking.

Does being knowledgeable of whatever subject matter your character is genius in help? Absolutely. Anyone who argues differently needs to reevaluate their stance. 

Is being knowledgeable in such a manner required to roleplay a convincing, "good" (in quotes because relative subjective-ness of the term), immersive "insert-talent here"? Absolutely not. 

And, honestly, it's disheartening to read the responses in this thread that would say otherwise.

Book knowledge doesn't make you smart.  My mother's a great example.  She will tell you, straight up, that she isn't necessarily intelligent.  Her sister was incredibly intelligent, but she isn't.  Both she and her sister went into nursing.  She's a better nurse, but she has to put in a ton of effort to learn new things and her knowledge base was put together over many years.  She has a lot of other great qualities, but she isn't a genius.  She's very aware of that.

Anyone can, if they have the drive and dedication, become knowledgeable in a subject.  Not everyone is a genius.  Intelligence is a measure of mental speed and acuity, not volume.

And a character being an autistic bookworm is one thing, but for someone to be a "genius", that's taking on a mental trait.  Geniuses are people who can learn new subjects incredibly quickly, react through problem solving quickly, and are generally people who have incredible recall.

Now, I do actually know something about swordplay, and that has allowed most of my characters to seem as though they have a prodigious amount of finesse (I can apply techniques I personally know).  But saying your character has a lot of physical power when you personally do not is relatively easy; you the person aren't physically present with your character.

But intelligence?  You ARE mentally present, and there are quite a few mental abilities people simply cannot mimic if they don't have it.  There is no amount of learning that can make you a genius, make you witty, make you charismatic, nothing.

I'll give you a direct example.  Let's say someone wants his character to be a genius.  His character seems to know everything there is to know about airships and machines, but the character is supposed to be a GENIUS, not just a well-schooled engineer.  However, let's say the player is not very intelligent.  That's going to come across in conversation.  He won't be able to produce snappy comebacks, nor will he be able to quickly come up with mechanical solutions that make any story sense.  He'll be a step behind in many conversations.  Worse, when explanations are occurring, his "less intelligent" fellow characters will be able to follow along.

We can all try to say, "this character is intelligent" but the character can't actually BE more intelligent than the player.  The best we can do is mimic the effects with some handwavium by artificially saying "this character is very smart".

I should point out that, again, this is by FAR the less common problem.  Roleplayers have a tendency towards mental acuity (coming up with story responses on the fly isn't something that tends to attract doofuses, that's what Call of Duty is for).  FAR more common is the issue with people playing socially adept characters who aren't, due to player limitations, actually that socially adept.  That's a big problem in FFXIV.  At least you can mimic the effects of intelligence and handwave, but it's often very obvious who doesn't have a charming bone in their body the second they try to be slick in character.

You can't be what you can't be, and it's extremely important that players realize this.  Very often, they take offense when their characters don't draw the attention that they want, whether it be awe at their intelligence or fluttering hearts at their bravado.  However, traits like intelligence, wit, charm, subterfuge, these are comparative traits that come out in play.  And if you can't play that role IRL (not could if you wanted to, but don't, but literally cannot) then there's no way you'll be able to pull off convincingly roleplaying someone in that role.

It's not sad, it's just reality.  If you want to play someone schooled on a subject you don't know much about, you can (and often, it does you a lot of good to read up on or extrapolate the knowledge you need, even if you don't have it).  That's relatively easy.  But you can't fake genius if you yourself can't think on that level.  That requires a lot of people helping out, and in an open-forum RP the way most of these games operate, that means you're trying to engender that reaction out of complete strangers.

Unfortunately, fake genius, like fake charm, tends to come across to strangers as exactly that, fake genius or fake charm.  There's nothing sadder than someone bombing at a supposedly genuine display of mental acuity because the player just isn't genuinely that acute.

(08-20-2015, 09:15 AM)Ignacius Wrote: [ -> ]FAR more common is the issue with people playing socially adept characters who aren't, due to player limitations, actually that socially adept. That's a big problem in FFXIV. At least you can mimic the effects of intelligence and handwave, but it's often very obvious who doesn't have a charming bone in their body the second they try to be slick in character.

This, so much this. There's few things more cringe worthy in RP than a self ascribed "lady killer" who is anything but.

Here's the thing about RPing labels such as "genius", "beautiful", or "popular". These labels are things that other people have the ability to bestow on you, labeling yourself such things doesn't really make it "real".

In this topic's particular focus we're talking about "genius", so the rest of my commentary will be only about that one.

Genius is not a scientific term. It's a social label that's applied to all sorts of different people for different reasons. A researcher who makes a breakthrough in his or her field can be called a genius, a football quarter back that is known for executing split second strategies that pay off might be called a genius quarter back, etc.

Point is the label genius is earned, not really announced. In fact it comes across as extremely eye-rolling when someone does declare themselves a genius - or in this case label their character one.

I'll briefly touch on the idea of "genius level IQ". These people do exist, but they are often described this way alongside being discovered as a child prodigy with precocious intelligence and learning ability. These people are exceedingly rare, so rare that most of us have never met one and never will.

A far better and much more believable way to go about role-playing a "smart" character is to label your character "gifted". A gifted person is a much more vague term, though also not really scientific, that describes a much wider range of mental acuity than the label genius. Most of us living in the west have probably met several people that are mentally gifted at some point in our lives. In fact I myself was labeled "gifted" by my school and moved up from 2nd to 3rd grade - something that turned out to be a huge mistake in the long run - but I'm a far cry from a genius.

As for role-playing gifted characters? This is entirely doable. My current main I label "gifted", and like real gifted people this doesn't mean she never makes mistakes or always has a snappy comeback the way a "genius" might. It just means that when it comes to reasoning ability she's above par, and that's something many of us are capable of at least faking reasonably well.

Honestly, I hesitate at the language of "can" or "should" here. RPing is not a profession. We do it because we want to. Because it's fun. While some of us may also be writers, we're not setting out to create the next bestselling novel when we RP.

When you tell people that they shouldn't play outside their own limits, you're discouraging others. And someone who might have been eager to try a new concept, a new character, or even just play their current OCs and stories, it might make them feel like they should just give up. Like they shouldn't do it anymore.

That's not a healthy attitude to inflict on an RP community. Regardless of whether you feel like another player is "up to your standards," a healthy RP community is going to have people from all walks of life. And maybe they don't play that genius character in a way that's convincing to you.

If that bothers you... you don't have to play with them. But unless that person is specifically looking for feedback, it's not cool to criticize.

You can and should, of course, choose where you want to spend your time according to what you want. And if you or other people are interested in improving how you play a character, widening your own repertoire is something to explore.
 
But when it comes down to it, we're just a group of people trying to enjoy a hobby. I think it's important to respect that.