Hydaelyn Role-Players

(08-20-2015, 12:02 PM)Diskwrite Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly, I hesitate at the language of "can" or "should" here. RPing is not a profession. We do it because we want to. Because it's fun. While some of us may also be writers, we're not setting out to create the next bestselling novel when we RP.

When you tell people that they shouldn't play outside their own limits, you're discouraging others. And someone who might have been eager to try a new concept, a new character, or even just play their current OCs and stories, it might make them feel like they should just give up. Like they shouldn't do it anymore.

That's not a healthy attitude to inflict on an RP community. Regardless of whether you feel like another player is "up to your standards," a healthy RP community is going to have people from all walks of life. And maybe they don't play that genius character in a way that's convincing to you.

If that bothers you... you don't have to play with them. But unless that person is specifically looking for feedback, it's not cool to criticize.

You can and should, of course, choose where you want to spend your time according to what you want. And if you or other people are interested in improving how you play a character, widening your own repertoire is something to explore.
 
But when it comes down to it, we're just a group of people trying to enjoy a hobby. I think it's important to respect that.

We weren't really getting into that (it wasn't part of the OP), but yes, demanding people recognize traits about your character that they're very obviously not displaying because you aren't capable of displaying them is a good way to make them not want to play with you.  And, of course, by the logic here, it's also a good way to get them to decide not to play with you without having any idea why they're avoiding you.

No one asked why their character wasn't matching their expectations, the OP very obviously asked the question of whether people should ask people to treat their characters as geniuses when they very clearly can't play that part.

If anything, I've found that the people who do that have absolutely NOT asked anyone for any criticism, they've just found themselves frozen out of RP because people find it irritating.  I have no doubt that there are very few people reading this who are saying, "Yes, that's me.  I'm the one that can't pull off the character I'm trying to play."

People have limits.  We can fake knowledge, that's fairly easy to do.  But to come off as witty and intelligent, you simply cannot do it if you aren't capable of being witty or intelligent.  You can have bigger muscles; your physical appearance isn't present.  But you cannot write an actually intelligent response to a conversation if you, yourself, aren't capable of it.  Obviously, you wouldn't be able to write it.

It's not meant to be insulting, that's just how it is.  Your character can be bigger than you, more skilled than you, but you can't write a character sharper than you.  Especially not when you have to answer other characters' actions on the fly.  People have to be mindful that there are simply certain traits that are going to be limited by your own mental acuity.

And it's important to know that, because writing beyond your ability is responsible for giving a character "unintentional traits", that is the things that make up your character that you didn't intend for them to have.  It creates dissonance.  As you've said, your character isn't the sum of what you intend, it's the sum of what other people perceive.  If you try to throw out a witty comment, and everyone else finds it boorish and pathetic, then your character isn't witty, your character thinks he's wittier than he is.  And that's likely not intended as the trait, it's simply the product of the writer thinking his character is wittier than he is.

Thus it's very important to know your own limitations.  If you aren't intelligent yourself, there are certain things you can fake (such as the knowledge and products), but you'll annoy people in conversation by trying to sound intelligent and failing.

We've all known that person on Facebook who thinks they're a lot more intelligent than they actually are.  Your character can be that person as well.  And that person is annoying in both cases.

(08-19-2015, 09:09 PM)Kaiz Wrote: [ -> ]It sounds like you don't know what you're asking. A witty person is not the same thing as an intellectual person, though those two personalities can share some common characteristics. 

Wit and intelligence are imperfect concepts, and are usually very subjective. Everyone can be witty or intelligent in their moments, and whether that makes them a witty or intelligent person is largely up to who you ask. Wit is largely recognized by creative language on the fly, so if you can pull off witty remarks, you can pass your character off as a witty character for the most part. 

Ultimately, roleplaying any personality that is outside your own is possible once you've broken down the characteristics that commonly define that personality, and constantly look for opportunities to show those characteristics in RP. Wit is definitely one of the harder ones to do because it heavily relies on improvisation and quick thinking, but even that can be faked with sufficient preparation.

An intellectual is easier because being intellectual is less about how intelligent you are and more about how much you care about intelligence. You can functionally have little real intelligence, but still be an intellectual because you are inquisitive, care about learning, value intelligence in others, and so on. 

Someone mentioned charismatic characters being impossible for non-charismatic people, but that is also incorrect, and I can speak from personal experience as a steep introvert with a very tiny sphere of friends who has successfully played two extroverted socialites who had big social circles and were generally well-received by everyone. It's just a matter of defining what makes a charismatic character what they are, and setting some guidelines for yourself to encourage more sociable behavior.

Obviously, the further the target personality is from your own, and the further it is from your comfort zone, the more discipline and work it will take to pull that character off. It's never impossible, but it might not always be worth it (especially for a main character) if it's always going to be an uphill struggle for you to actualize your character.

tl;dr - Yes, it's possible, it's just harder for some than others.

As I mentioned in my post, it was a phrasing problem. I do not speak of intellect or knowledge, I speak of raw sharp-mindedness and wit. I don't mean to offend anyone, and if someone takes this personally, I apologize. This isn't a personal attack against those who play witty characters. 

However, I part from the belief that unless you're given a script, you cannot fake possessing mental faculties you truly lack. If you claim your character is intelligent enough to come back with quick-witted responses, then you, as a roleplayer, have to come up with those witty responses as quickly as your character would. For someone who isn't sharp-minded, this is nearly impossible. This usually leads to the character falling flat, because you as a roleplayer cannot keep up with the character you want to portray.

My father is an actor. He has done all kinds of acting, including Improv. Role-play is a lot like imrpov, because you don't follow a script, it's fully reactionary. He has told me that in order to portray a quick-witted person, one must be sharp minded, otherwise you won't be able to play the part.

To answer the OP: Yes; a "genius" character can be roleplayed by the dumb.

Will you be successful at it? Depends on your BS skill level.

Take for example how easily someone can manipulate statistics to sound smart, presented below:

Quote:Out of a study of 125 tests measuring statistiscal validity:

15% of statistics are 10% true.
45% of statistics are 65% true.
7% of statistics are 13% true.
13% of statistics are 27% true.
20% of statistics are entirely false.

(08-20-2015, 01:14 PM)Leggerless Wrote: [ -> ]To answer the OP: Yes; a "genius" character can be roleplayed by the dumb.

Will you be successful at it? Depends on your BS skill level.

Take for example how easily someone can manipulate statistics to sound smart, presented below:

Quote:Out of a study of 125 tests measuring statistiscal validity:

15% of statistics are 10% true.
45% of statistics are 65% true.
7% of statistics are 13% true.
13% of statistics are 27% true.
20% of statistics are entirely false.

But see, someone has to possess wit in order to successfully fool others with their BS. If you're a very good liar or you can manage to throw people off-balance by making their logic spin and twisting it to your benefit, you are intelligent. Ignorant, sure, but intelligent. Twisting facts and bending them so they can seem true to those who are easily manipulated indicates that you are not dumb. People who believe you might be, but not you.

(08-20-2015, 01:06 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-19-2015, 09:09 PM)Kaiz Wrote: [ -> ]It sounds like you don't know what you're asking. A witty person is not the same thing as an intellectual person, though those two personalities can share some common characteristics. 

Wit and intelligence are imperfect concepts, and are usually very subjective. Everyone can be witty or intelligent in their moments, and whether that makes them a witty or intelligent person is largely up to who you ask. Wit is largely recognized by creative language on the fly, so if you can pull off witty remarks, you can pass your character off as a witty character for the most part. 

Ultimately, roleplaying any personality that is outside your own is possible once you've broken down the characteristics that commonly define that personality, and constantly look for opportunities to show those characteristics in RP. Wit is definitely one of the harder ones to do because it heavily relies on improvisation and quick thinking, but even that can be faked with sufficient preparation.

An intellectual is easier because being intellectual is less about how intelligent you are and more about how much you care about intelligence. You can functionally have little real intelligence, but still be an intellectual because you are inquisitive, care about learning, value intelligence in others, and so on. 

Someone mentioned charismatic characters being impossible for non-charismatic people, but that is also incorrect, and I can speak from personal experience as a steep introvert with a very tiny sphere of friends who has successfully played two extroverted socialites who had big social circles and were generally well-received by everyone. It's just a matter of defining what makes a charismatic character what they are, and setting some guidelines for yourself to encourage more sociable behavior.

Obviously, the further the target personality is from your own, and the further it is from your comfort zone, the more discipline and work it will take to pull that character off. It's never impossible, but it might not always be worth it (especially for a main character) if it's always going to be an uphill struggle for you to actualize your character.

tl;dr - Yes, it's possible, it's just harder for some than others.

As I mentioned in my post, it was a phrasing problem. I do not speak of intellect or knowledge, I speak of raw sharp-mindedness and wit. I don't mean to offend anyone, and if someone takes this personally, I apologize. This isn't a personal attack against those who play witty characters. 

However, I part from the belief that unless you're given a script, you cannot fake possessing mental faculties you truly lack. If you claim your character is intelligent enough to come back with quick-witted responses, then you, as a roleplayer, have to come up with those witty responses as quickly as your character would. For someone who isn't sharp-minded, this is nearly impossible. This usually leads to the character falling flat, because you as a roleplayer cannot keep up with the character you want to portray.

My father is an actor. He has done all kinds of acting, including Improv. Role-play is a lot like imrpov, because you don't follow a script, it's fully reactionary. He has told me that in order to portray a quick-witted person, one must be sharp minded, otherwise you won't be able to play the part.

Perhaps a change of the thread's subject might help, if a sharp mind and quick wit is what you're talking about. Addressing the word 'dumb' may assist as well, regardless of if the intent is not to offend. 

Not to mention, if someone not of a sharp mind cannot respond as fast as their character can, it has nothing to do with the roleplay at all. If they take five minutes to respond and simply put in their emote "Berrod Armstrong's response was almost immediate, blah blah," Then the scene has been narrated in a way that paints the character as quick witted -- even if the player took five minutes to come up with the response. It's all about the writing.

(08-20-2015, 01:18 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-20-2015, 01:14 PM)Leggerless Wrote: [ -> ]To answer the OP: Yes; a "genius" character can be roleplayed by the dumb.

Will you be successful at it? Depends on your BS skill level.

Take for example how easily someone can manipulate statistics to sound smart, presented below:

Quote:Out of a study of 125 tests measuring statistiscal validity:

15% of statistics are 10% true.
45% of statistics are 65% true.
7% of statistics are 13% true.
13% of statistics are 27% true.
20% of statistics are entirely false.

But see, someone has to possess wit in order to successfully fool others with their BS. If you're a very good liar or you can manage to throw people off-balance by making their logic spin and twisting it to your benefit, you are intelligent. Ignorant, sure, but intelligent. Twisting facts and bending them so they can seem true to those who are easily manipulated indicates that you are not dumb. People who believe you might be, but not you.

Yeah, more at issue is when you've got someone saying they're intelligent, then having them continually flabbergasted in logical conversation and unable to do basic problem solving.  Having random statistical knowledge is one thing, but not having the personal mental speed to figure things out just isn't something you can get around besides telling the other players they have to take things as read.  And that's just not something that can happen in open RP.

The thing is, a lot of people can give playing a genius a go, but in the case of RP the audience is all around you and are writing the scene with you.  It separates the men from the boys, so to speak.  Eventually it comes across that the character isn't really that intelligent.

I'm usually extremely conscious of character bleed, so I'm usually in the habit of making sure I'm coming across correctly.  People who are constantly checking to make sure they're playing the character and not playing themselves are usually aware of their intrinsic limitations.

(08-20-2015, 01:22 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps a change of the thread's subject might help, if a sharp mind and quick wit is what you're talking about. Addressing the word 'dumb' may assist as well, regardless of if the intent is not to offend. 

Not to mention, if someone not of a sharp mind cannot respond as fast as their character can, it has nothing to do with the roleplay at all. If they take five minutes to respond and simply put in their emote "Berrod Armstrong's response was almost immediate, blah blah," Then the scene has been narrated in a way that paints the character as quick witted -- even if the player took five minutes to come up with the response. It's all about the writing.

I changed it to "Witty" though this also applies to "Genius" characters so many people love to RP. And I do mean dumb, not slow. Dumb. Stupid. Not smart. Someone intellectually challenged.

Someone who even if they take five minutes to respond, no matter how great they are, their responses are hardly intelligent or thoughtful. I know far too many characters that their players OOC tell me they are "geniuses" only to find out they are acting like bumbling fools when they are put to the test, simply because the role-player is lacking in mental faculties. Characters who act irrational and emotional when their players claim they are the ultimate scientists who are oh-so-cold and calculating.

It's fantasy, part of the reason to RP is to not be yourself, maybe a person is stupid, and they realize that but have learning disabilities and desperately want to be a genius, so RPing one is their fantasy or escape. That's what RP is about, what it's always been about, being something your not. Escaping into a fantasy.

I think judging someone for not being as smart as they want their character to be is a bit of a sour disposition and my need to be rethought by the person judging.

If you think they're not up to snuff, you can always offer assistance OOC, etc etc. 

If the person is a jerk about it, judge away, but if they're not and they just want to play their fantasy.. I think we as a community should help said person, rather than shun them.

(08-20-2015, 01:22 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-20-2015, 01:06 PM)LadyRochester Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-19-2015, 09:09 PM)Kaiz Wrote: [ -> ]It sounds like you don't know what you're asking. A witty person is not the same thing as an intellectual person, though those two personalities can share some common characteristics. 

Wit and intelligence are imperfect concepts, and are usually very subjective. Everyone can be witty or intelligent in their moments, and whether that makes them a witty or intelligent person is largely up to who you ask. Wit is largely recognized by creative language on the fly, so if you can pull off witty remarks, you can pass your character off as a witty character for the most part. 

Ultimately, roleplaying any personality that is outside your own is possible once you've broken down the characteristics that commonly define that personality, and constantly look for opportunities to show those characteristics in RP. Wit is definitely one of the harder ones to do because it heavily relies on improvisation and quick thinking, but even that can be faked with sufficient preparation.

An intellectual is easier because being intellectual is less about how intelligent you are and more about how much you care about intelligence. You can functionally have little real intelligence, but still be an intellectual because you are inquisitive, care about learning, value intelligence in others, and so on. 

Someone mentioned charismatic characters being impossible for non-charismatic people, but that is also incorrect, and I can speak from personal experience as a steep introvert with a very tiny sphere of friends who has successfully played two extroverted socialites who had big social circles and were generally well-received by everyone. It's just a matter of defining what makes a charismatic character what they are, and setting some guidelines for yourself to encourage more sociable behavior.

Obviously, the further the target personality is from your own, and the further it is from your comfort zone, the more discipline and work it will take to pull that character off. It's never impossible, but it might not always be worth it (especially for a main character) if it's always going to be an uphill struggle for you to actualize your character.

tl;dr - Yes, it's possible, it's just harder for some than others.

As I mentioned in my post, it was a phrasing problem. I do not speak of intellect or knowledge, I speak of raw sharp-mindedness and wit. I don't mean to offend anyone, and if someone takes this personally, I apologize. This isn't a personal attack against those who play witty characters. 

However, I part from the belief that unless you're given a script, you cannot fake possessing mental faculties you truly lack. If you claim your character is intelligent enough to come back with quick-witted responses, then you, as a roleplayer, have to come up with those witty responses as quickly as your character would. For someone who isn't sharp-minded, this is nearly impossible. This usually leads to the character falling flat, because you as a roleplayer cannot keep up with the character you want to portray.

My father is an actor. He has done all kinds of acting, including Improv. Role-play is a lot like imrpov, because you don't follow a script, it's fully reactionary. He has told me that in order to portray a quick-witted person, one must be sharp minded, otherwise you won't be able to play the part.

Perhaps a change of the thread's subject might help, if a sharp mind and quick wit is what you're talking about. Addressing the word 'dumb' may assist as well, regardless of if the intent is not to offend. 

Not to mention, if someone not of a sharp mind cannot respond as fast as their character can, it has nothing to do with the roleplay at all. If they take five minutes to respond and simply put in their emote "Berrod Armstrong's response was almost immediate, blah blah," Then the scene has been narrated in a way that paints the character as quick witted -- even if the player took five minutes to come up with the response. It's all about the writing.

Except that's not usually the issue.  The issue is that they can write the response to be immediate, but if it's a dumb comeback, it's a dumb comeback.  Generally speaking, I take everything as if it came directly after, the problem is that people don't actually come up with a witty response.

You know, as if you actually did write "blah blah".  I mean, we're talking about people who are writing responses that might have taken quite a bit of thought from the writer, but in no way resemble someone intelligent.

For example, let's say that you're having a conversation with your compatriots about how to solve a problem, say how to get hold of a certain person who is being held in custody.  When someone is telling you their character is a genius, and keeps coming up with obviously stupid ideas (e.g. "Just blow up the door."  "We just said that there's no way to go through a wall without destroying half the building."  "I said DOOR, idiot."  "....")

Wit is even harder.  If someone points out a logical flaw in your argument and your retort sounds like something out of The Jersey Shore, it doesn't matter if you write in that it's immediate.  Wit, like genius, is perceived and is thus a function of the audience (in this case the other writers).  If you are trying to say your character is witty and you can't come up with witty repartee, you'll simply fail.  Worse, you're likely to be grating on the nerves of multiple members of the group.

Even worse, and probably most common, is a failure of charisma.  You cannot write yourself charming if you can't be charming in real life.  Charm is 100% a function of the audience, so if you crash and burn, you will crash and burn hard.  Unfortunately, a lot of charm is wit, so if you can't be intelligent and witty, you're already going to fail hard at being charming.  Unfortunately, a LOT of people try to write characters to be ladies' men that can't pull it off, and it's nails on a chalkboard.

The worst part of the whole situation is that when these people are frozen out of the scene, and they ask, they'll receive what might be well-meaning and gentle criticism about them coming across as being irritating.  And the first response you get from the player is, "Well, the character is intelligent" or witty or charismatic or whatever they're trying to get across.  The problem is that the audience doesn't necessarily find that believable.  There are certain traits you just can't "write in".

In an open RP setting, with random RP partners, I can't stress enough what a problem this can be, especially because it leads to people not knowing why they're being frozen out.

Wit is actually really easy to write, and most of the criticisms here come from people with exceptionally high standards for wittiness. It's an unfortunate side effect of an audience that consists of self-proclaimed writers.

(08-20-2015, 01:43 PM)War Siren Wrote: [ -> ]It's fantasy, part of the reason to RP is to not be yourself, maybe a person is stupid, and they realize that but have learning disabilities and desperately want to be a genius, so RPing one is their fantasy or escape. That's what RP is about, what it's always been about, being something your not. Escaping into a fantasy.

I think judging someone forgot being as smart as they want their character to be is a bit of a sour disposition and my need to be rethought by the person judging.

If you think they're not up to snuff, you can always offer assistance OOC, etc etc. 

If the person is a jerk about it, judge away, but if they're not and they just want to play their fantasy.. I think we as a community should help said person, rather than shun them.

I guarantee you that if you were playing a female character, and a man comes in and pulls a bro-douche act, then says he's trying to play a womanizing character because he's not popular with women in real life, nobody's going to suddenly pretend that his character is sexy after the fact.

Same difference.  You can only TRY to play a character that you aren't, but the audience actually does judge you.  That's the difference between RP and just fantasizing in your own head.  No one is under any compunction to comfort you if you can't carry the trait you're trying to get across.  Genius, wit, charisma, these are things you have to have some measure of before you can write them.

This happens ALL THE TIME, I can't stress this enough.  I have a friend from my WoW days.  She's a perfectly fine and helpful human being.  She loves RP and helped me run a guild for a while there.  She is not a genius, and to make matters worse, she has very poor grammar and spelling.  So when she tries to play someone cunning and intelligent, it shows.  Badly.

And even as a very, very good friend of hers, it was very grating having someone punching that high above their weight.

(08-20-2015, 01:57 PM)Verad Wrote: [ -> ]Wit is actually really easy to write, and most of the criticisms here come from people with exceptionally high standards for wittiness. It's an unfortunate side effect of an audience that consists of self-proclaimed writers.

How else is one proclaimed?

Is there a ceremony? Crowns, swords, secret ballots, a puff of white smoke?

Or perhaps only by birth? The true writers a secretive clan who's blood hath been passed down through the ages?


To the topic at hand though, wit, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. What you might judge as clumsy or bad wittiness could be hilarious to another person. It could even be so witty that us lesser beings cannot hope to understand it.


It is a big world, and we do not all laugh at the same comedy. Or appluad the same words. So I would not judge overly harsh anyone who does not confirm to my own sense of wit.

You can roleplay what you want. Who is anyone to say if someone can RP, or even to judge their results? This is not a competition.

And yes you can do it with a degree of believability. The OOC use of things like google and the fact that in a fantasy setting the rules of reality are loose and not clear. There are also numerous archetypes to choose from and copy. Such as playing a conjurer as House, or the bard as the Dread Pirate Roberts, or the rogue as Vala Mal Doran. All witty characters.

And why is "witty" excluded from a dumb person anyhow? Take Sheldon Cooper and Penny, I would say Penny is the witty one of the two.

What I find more interesting is a witty and intelligent player. This comes through even in dumb characters. It is this that allows people to find a match that they can spark off and create RP fire. In my experience.

(08-20-2015, 02:21 PM)Nebbs Wrote: [ -> ]You can roleplay what you want. Who is anyone to say if someone can RP, or even to judge their results? This is not a competition.

And yes you can do it with a degree of believability. The OOC use of things like google and the fact that in a fantasy setting the rules of reality are loose and not clear. There are also numerous archetypes to choose from and copy. Such as playing a conjurer as House, or the bard as the Dread Pirate Roberts, or the rogue as Vala Mal Doran. All witty characters.

And why is "witty" excluded from a dumb person anyhow? Take Sheldon Cooper and Penny, I would say Penny is the witty one of the two.

What I find more interesting is a witty and intelligent player. This comes through even in dumb characters. It is this that allows people to find a match that they can spark off and create RP fire. In my experience.

Well, unfortunately, the people who are to say if someone can RP and judge their results are the other players.  People can RP what they want.  At issue is our reaction as an audience.  That's a big problem, because, like it or not, the entire point of person-to-person interaction is judgement, and RP is a social activity.

The OP has said, very directly, that the player stated that their character was a genius, and then the character very obviously was not.  This is very important, because this isn't all that uncommon.  Genius, wit, etc, that's all based on interaction and comes from the audience.  We, as roleplayers, are also not in any position to be told what a character is when the character can't be backed up with actual writing.  It doesn't make you a bad person to not want to RP with someone whose RP grates on your nerves.  This dissonance is one of the major reasons why that has nothing to do with metagaming and bleed.

So, you can RP whatever you want, but you have no room to complain if you're frozen out of RP (also what commonly happens to these players).  You are all judging (and being judged) every time you speak in public, including your RP skills.  Hell, we're all judging each other here and trying desperately not to seem like we are.  Such is the nature of social interaction.

Characters who actually seem genuinely witty and intelligent are generally written by witty and intelligent players.  And, to be fair, it's not a pandemic of people who are punching above their weight class.  Players tend to write characters as witty or intelligent as they can manage, which isn't what I'd call genius but not certainly dumb.

But people who are not themselves witty or intelligent at all certainly aren't going to write characters who are convincingly witty or intelligent.  Generally, if you have to tell someone what they're supposed to think, as in the OP, you aren't convincing anyone.  I simply don't think it's right to tell other people they have to take the character description as the gospel even when they are reading that it's inaccurate in the actual RP.

A nose upturned, "What faith have I?"
In banter found displeasing to my eye.
For tis but with wit and clever words
That the intelligence of men is heard!

He comes to me, foul stinking wretch
To curry my favor with honeyed breath.
"Pardon me lady," he doth intone
"Wouldst thou wish to ride my bone?"

Tis these encounters with peasants thick
That turns my stomach and makes me sick.
"Tis wit, tis wit!" I explain so proud
And set my gaze upon distant clouds.

If only they could join me here
In favored winds and skies so clear
You can see to far and distant lands
Free of grubby, clawing hands.

Alas it remains that they cannot
In muck and mire their wit is caught.
Live there down below the gods
Cowering, quivering, sniveling clods.

Rochester is and Rochester be
Forever above that roiling sea.
But hark! They gaze upon my light
And dream, yes dream, someday of flight!