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Naunet · **10-16-2013, 01:54 PM**

(10-15-2013, 10:54 PM)Nimarhie Wrote: I think part of the trouble we might be having is that we are trying to stuff cat-people into a human cultural view. Among humans its considered bad for people to be promiscuous, at least in most cultures. Cats however do not share that view point. They go into heat and they go off and find a likely bed-buddy for a few minutes to half an hour.

Miqo'te are not cats.

allgivenover · **10-16-2013, 03:12 PM**

(10-16-2013, 12:28 PM)Jomoru Wrote: I can think of 5 npc males found in game off the top of my head...

Whoops, meant to type that we see one KEEPER male in game, not one Miqo'te male period. We actually get to see 4 Seekers and 1 Keeper.

(10-16-2013, 12:28 PM)Jomoru Wrote: ...we also don't see a large group of females, in fact I don't think we even see ten there...

There's quite a number of females at the Forgotten Springs camp, and that doesn't include the FATE there that spawns many more unnamed females to aid in the defense against a worm attack at the gate. I haven't counted them, but there's certainly more than ten and less than fifty. There are three males at the camp, one Nunh patriarch and two young males aspiring to Nunh. The fourth Seeker male in game can be found in Vesper bay. Couple this with the fact that you find Seeker and Keeper females in abundance in ALL of the city states, with very, very few males (in fact, none can be found inside the city-states at all) we come to some fairly solid reasoning that Miqo'te males are just rare all around.

(10-16-2013, 12:28 PM)Jomoru Wrote: ...So even among the Sun Seekers there is not as much of a huge gap and keepers are explicitly stated to only slightly favor more females...

It's explicitly stated that males are born less frequently, but not that the frequency is 'only slight' (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...onventions), the text reads: Though there are ten suffixes listed above, rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race.Â The wording is ambiguous how many more females are born than males, but as I wrote above, we can draw reasonable conclusions about it.

If we must choose a ratio, I'd guess the chances of a Miqo'te child being male are no greater than 1 in 4, and I feel even that is being generous given how scarce they are in game.

EDIT: Hunted down the Japanese naming convention page, which states that male births are low. "â€»å…ƒã€…ã€ç”·æ€§ãŒç”Ÿã¾ã‚Œã‚‹ç¢ºçŽ‡ãŒä½Žã„ãŸã‚ã€10äººã‚‚ã®ç”·å…ãŒç”Ÿã¾ã‚Œã‚‹ã“ã¨ãªã©ã€äº‹å®Ÿä¸Šã»ã¨ã‚“ã©ã‚ã‚Šã¾ã›ã‚“ãŒã€ä¼çµ±ã¨ã—ã¦æ±ºã‚ã‚‰ã‚Œã¦ã¯ã„ã‚‹çŠ¶æ…‹ã§ã™ã€‚" It also says that the chance of using all ten suffixs for Keeper male names is virtually impossible due to this low male birth rate.

(10-16-2013, 12:28 PM)Jomoru Wrote: Or its a way of saying age. "3 young women and 1 adult male" just that Keepers consider sexual activity to be a part of adult quality. This does not mean they use the Seeker method and could easily hold more closely to monogomous relationships.

Then why didn't they write "three young women and a young man"? Breeding male is a very deliberate use there, but you also mistake me. I didn't mean that Keepers follow Seeker mating rules, I meant that they have breeding males but unfortunately we have no details beyond that wording and logical thinking about what a society lacking in males would be like. My way around this was to separate my character from his traditional family long before considerations for breeding were ever on the table for him. I'll wait for SE to give us more about this (if they ever do) rather than decide how it would work myself. If anything comes to light that's contrary to what I have, then his history can be modified to match it.

It's possible there are anomalous modern Miqo'te Keepers that favor monogamy, and I'm certainly not saying you're wrong if your Miqo'te character desires it, and in fact that idea of a male all to themselves may be rather attractive to a Miqo'te female. This difference of opinion on the matter has made for great RP between my Keeper boy and other Miqo'te. I'm only stating that finding monogamy among traditional Miqo'te, Keeper or Seeker, is hard to swallow from a logical standpoint.

Jomoru · **10-16-2013, 04:07 PM**

(10-16-2013, 03:12 PM)allgivenover Wrote: It's possible there are anomalous modern Miqo'te Keepers that favor monogamy, and I'm certainly not saying you're wrong if your Miqo'te character desires it, and in fact that idea of a male all to themselves may be rather attractive to a Miqo'te female. This difference of opinion on the matter has made for great RP between my Keeper boy and other Miqo'te. I'm only stating that finding monogamy among traditional Miqo'te, Keeper or Seeker, is hard to swallow from a logical standpoint.

I would counter that if Monagamy were such an alien concept to the Miqote(vs particular miqote enclaves) we wouldn't see them easily slipping into cross racial relationships. Similarly we see a clear monagamous romantic relationship in the Arcanist quests cross clan.

Now this could be symbolic of the fact that the miqote of the cities have thrown off the ways of their ancestors, that they have adapted and assimilated. It could mean that the tribal ways are dying(such is implied even in the Forgotten springs line).

Perhaps that could be a point of division those who want to keep to the "logical" and those who find it outdated and primative.

allgivenover · **10-16-2013, 04:34 PM**

I think you're correct there, it doesn't seem likely that tribal ways will persist much longer, and it's entirely possible for modern Miqo'te to find themselves in a monogamous situation. I'm just saying traditionally it was likely a no go.

But you mistake me again, I'm not saying that Miqo'te being promiscuous is a logical or correct way for them be, I'm saying that through logical reasoning we can conclude that it just didn't work that way for them traditionally. What's right or wrong or outdated or primitive is immaterial to that point.

Jomoru · **10-17-2013, 07:15 AM**

(10-16-2013, 04:34 PM)allgivenover Wrote: I think you're correct there, it doesn't seem likely that tribal ways will persist much longer, and it's entirely possible for modern Miqo'te to find themselves in a monogamous situation. I'm just saying traditionally it was likely a no go.

But you mistake me again, I'm not saying that Miqo'te being promiscuous is a logical or correct way for them be, I'm saying that through logical reasoning we can conclude that it just didn't work that way for them traditionally. What's right or wrong or outdated or primitive is immaterial to that point.

The problem I am seeing here is that you are falling into a modern and very western view of gender and biological sex.

Gender is a social construct, it is a position now in the Modern west it is based almost purely on biology. This is not necissarily the case in many cultures. I'll use theÂ BugisÂ as an example. They are a fairly traditional people who still hold to shamanic views(along with embracing Islam) who divide themselves up into 5 genders using just standard human biology. I can point out other traditional societies that had other gender roles outside what western society creates(most of which we would equate with homosexuality)

Now with the biology of the Miqote one can imagine they might develop all sorts of complex gender roles. Now among humans on earth there areÂ studiesÂ indicating advantages for homosexuality on a biological end. Now Irl that's more about male homosexuality than female, but we are dealing with fictional cat people so I think adapting the strategies to swap biological sexes would make sense with a tendency to have large numbers of females vs males.

Thus while you say that it seems logical that Male miqote naturally be promiscuous, while there is a distinct possibility that rather than copying the Seeker model the Keepers might take from other real world traditions on gender. This may even vary from enclave to enclave as traditionally Moon figures are fluid and changing various enclaves would by my thoughts be much less rigid about universal culture vs the Seekers(along with having many smaller groups)

allgivenover · **10-17-2013, 08:25 AM**

I actually think that both genders among Keepers would have a tendency to promiscuity, not just the males. And I also think bisexuality among females would be so commonplace that they wouldn't even require a word to describe it as anything different from the norm as we do. This promiscuity doesn't mean they would go about trying to lay with as many people as possible, or be vulgar, shallow, or shy away from emotional connections. I just don't think they'd have the same ideas about exclusivity or marriage that more contemporary cultures do, at least not until those ideas were transmitted to them from other cultures. Simply from the fact that there are just not enough males to go around. If you'd rather call it them being polyamorous rather than promiscuous, that's fine, that word might have a more positive bend to it.

Not following you when it comes to your claim that I'm applying modern western views of biological sex and gender to Miqo'te. I'm a poor fit when compared to those ideas myself, in fact there's pictures of me crossdressing - and not as a joke - in the real life picture thread on this board. As for how Miqo'te view gender and biological sex? It's anyone's guess really. SE gives us nothing on the issue. I'd wager that it's rather binary given that the game is developed by a Japanese company.

Jomoru · **10-17-2013, 10:56 AM**

(10-17-2013, 08:25 AM)allgivenover Wrote: I actually think that both genders among Keepers would have a tendency to promiscuity, not just the males. And I also think bisexuality among females would be so commonplace that they wouldn't even require a word to describe it as anything different from the norm as we do. This promiscuity doesn't mean they would go about trying to lay with as many people as possible, or be vulgar, shallow, or shy away from emotional connections. I just don't think they'd have the same ideas about exclusivity or marriage that more contemporary cultures do, at least not until those ideas were transmitted to them from other cultures. Simply from the fact that there are just not enough males to go around. If you'd rather call it them being polyamorous rather than promiscuous, that's fine, that word might have a more positive bend to it.

Not following you when it comes to your claim that I'm applying modern western views of biological sex and gender to Miqo'te. I'm a poor fit when compared to those ideas myself, in fact there's pictures of me crossdressing - and not as a joke - in the real life picture thread on this board. As for how Miqo'te view gender and biological sex? It's anyone's guess really. SE gives us nothing on the issue. I'd wager that it's rather binary given that the game is developed by a Japanese company.

Exclucivity is not a recent thing. The majority of traditional socities studied made use of it. The only societies i can think of that had more relaxed patterns such as the Polynesians still had concepts of marriage and pair bonding. Just if someone wanted to go off and sleep with someone else they had to tell their partner. Pair bonding has proven to be highly advantageous towards propigating the species. The major exception has been harems and even then they were highly exclusive.

As for why I said it seems very western the whole idea of biological extientialism that seems to underline your premise has always come off as ignoring many traditional groups and building from the often false premise taken by many who uphold western gender norms as biologically based imparatives.

Lament · **10-17-2013, 04:38 PM**

A minor thing - but Keepers are said in lore to typically group in small communities of a few families. It's very likely each community has its own hierarchy/structure/customs, with some similarities between them.

I mean, the one Seeker tribe we see spits in the face of lore, with the Nunh also acting as leader (which lore says is rare). It's safe to say even among Seeker tribes there may be variety in societal roles, and there are only twenty-something of them. There are probably countless more Keeper communities, so really, you can pretty much make up your own headcanon and run with it.

Keep in mind humans are all the same species, yet we've managed to fragment into countless different cultures, and then subcultures within those cultures, and then groups within those... we may all be driven by certain primal instincts (eat, drink, breed, sleep, survive), but how each culture will approach them is different.

Few males does imply fewer breeding options, but there are so many ways it could play out that I don't think one's more right than the other.

Ildur · **10-17-2013, 06:59 PM**

Interestingly, there is another Miqo'te tribe in the game: the Coeurlclaw Poachers in the Black Shroud which, if I recall correctly, are Keepers of the Moon. Yet there is one FATE where a male is their leader. All tribal Miqo'te societies currently despicted in the game contradict lore.

Nimarhie · **10-17-2013, 07:31 PM**

Or perhaps they are there to show that just because the Almighty Lore says something doesnt mean that everyone falls into step with it.

(10-17-2013, 08:25 AM)allgivenover Wrote: I actually think that both genders among Keepers would have a tendency to promiscuity, not just the males. And I also think bisexuality among females would be so commonplace that they wouldn't even require a word to describe it as anything different from the norm as we do. This promiscuity doesn't mean they would go about trying to lay with as many people as possible, or be vulgar, shallow, or shy away from emotional connections. I just don't think they'd have the same ideas about exclusivity or marriage that more contemporary cultures do, at least not until those ideas were transmitted to them from other cultures. Simply from the fact that there are just not enough males to go around. If you'd rather call it them being polyamorous rather than promiscuous, that's fine, that word might have a more positive bend to it.

I agree with you on this... if males are few and far between in your species, you're going to find love and companionship with the same sex. Daughters and the occasional son are probably raised by their mother and her female-mate-wife-husband-lover-whatever (lol).

Speculation again, but I like the idea, and it logically fits in with the snippets of lore we were given. Wink

Nako Vesh · **10-17-2013, 07:49 PM**

(10-17-2013, 07:31 PM)Nimarhie Wrote: Or perhaps they are there to show that just because the Almighty Lore says something doesnt mean that everyone falls into step with it.

This, and I'm willing to bet it might be a lapse in continuity. Whenever you do any large scale world-building, you're going to make mistakes and contradictions. Even Tolkien slipped up.

Jomoru · **10-18-2013, 03:57 AM**

(10-17-2013, 04:38 PM)Lament Wrote: Few males does imply fewer breeding options, but there are so many ways it could play out that I don't think one's more right than the other.

Since we aren't even playing with the same basic physics in the universe it seems somewhat odd that we assume biology would work broadly the same. The reason for the predeliction for female births among the Keepers maybe that they have the potential for parthenogenesis

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My take on the anthropology of the Keepers of the Moon

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes