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Zyrusticae · **07-29-2014, 07:13 PM**

So I'm gonna be honest: If it's anything less than the expert dungeons (which you can't run yet anyway because you're not i70+), I don't care if I'm ripping aggro off of the tank, because nothing in those dungeons is strong enough to kill anyone in the party anyway. Playing as MNK, or DRG, when I get a particularly undergeared tank, I don't hold back. I just keep punching because I'm probably better at taking hits than the tank anyway due to the sheer insanity of the gear difference. (I once dropped into a low-level dungeon queue where my LNC had more HP than the tank, and ended up tanking half the mobs in the dungeon. True story.)

So, you know... it's gonna happen. Don't take it too hard on yourself if it does, because it's not really your fault. You just have to work your way up until you've caught up in the gear race, and until then, DPS is gonna do what DPS is gonna do.

Melkire · **07-29-2014, 08:21 PM**

I see a lot of general advice in this thread so far (which is good! especially if you're being overgeared, which ain't fun!) but not many actual tips for WAR tanking. WAR-NING: likely to be more of a guide. Fuggit, let's go.

Golden Rule of WAR (may also apply to PLDs, refer to others on that): Given similar gear levels, a WAR should never lose aggro once a hate/enmityÂ lead has established; if aggro is lost, the WAR has done something wrong.

The reason this is the case is because, as a WAR,Â you have many good tools (and in the case of Overpower and Steel Cyclone, incontrovertiblyÂ superior tools) for establishing, maintaining, and building said lead.

Something to understand about enmity: it's a race where early leads count for far more than you'd expect them to. That's why the rule of thumb is, after pulling with Hawk/Provoke/whatever, to either Steel Cyclone or Overpower at least two to three times. That's why you see bad WARs getting by just by spamming Overpower on trash pulls:

1-2-3 Butcher's Block Combo: Standard fare, nothing special. Standard tank M.O. is to tab-target/cycle target through the enemy list. Heavy Swing just delays the inevitable, Skull Sunder keeps you even most of the time if not pulling ahead, and Butcher's Block just gives you a huge boost in enmity on your target thereby letting you pull ahead.

Overpower: A WAR's bread and butter for establishing, building, and maintaining aggro on multiple targets. Frontal AoE cone, but it'll run you dry soon... unless you have a Bard singing Army's Paeon for you, in which case you can pull entireÂ dungeonsÂ betweenÂ bosses without pausing for TP. Pop Unchained or Berserk and it hits harder.Â Again, rule of thumb: Overpower twice or three times when you're getting started onÂ a trash pull or when picking upÂ bunched-up adds. Throw one in every onceÂ in a while between combos if needed.

Flash: Flash deserves a mention because, while we don't get the Blind and Bind bonuses that PLDs get,Â Flash is on an entirely different resource than TP. Flash uses MP. WARs don't use MP for ANYTHING ELSE. This means you have three or four Flashes toÂ mix in wheneverÂ you need them to hold aggro (you won't be building aggro with this). Benefits: using it mid-combo doesn't break the combo, and using it on sleeping enemies doesn't wake them up, meaning you can beat your healer down the enmity list so that sleeping enemies don't go for them when they wake up. Â Flash has enough utility for WAR that it's worth crossclassing for most content that isn't Insert-Primal-Fight-Here.

Maim: The Storm's Path / Storm's Eye Combos: Infinitely better combos than their contemporary, Riot Blade, on PLD. Maim is already great, and ideally you want to keep that buff up on yourself at all times: theÂ more damage that goes into your attacks, the more enmity you're building. Storm's Eye follows the same concept: applies a debuff to a single target that weakens their resistance to slash damage, meaning you and PLDs hit them harder... which means you're doing more damage, which means more enmity being built. Storm's Path is great too, single debuff on a target that keeps them from hitting as hard and you can keep 100% uptime going on a bossÂ if you know what you're doing. So. One self-buff in Maim, and two debuffs in the Storm combos. USE THEM. They're part of what gives WAR its edge.

Defiance and Wrath: This mechanic is fairly easy to understand. Defiance is a no-brainer: you gain more max health, healers get a multiplier when healing you, and in exchange for losing DPS you gain an enmity multiplier than more than makes up for the loss from downgraded damage. Wrath is simple enough too: the more stacks you have, the more often you crit, and therefore the more damage you do more often. Hit five stacks of Wrath, and you can pop Unchained to remove your DPS limiter (yay~! base damage AND enmity multiplier!), Inner Beast for a hard-hitting self-healing attack that gives you some serious Damage Reduction, or Steel Cyclone for ENMITYYYYYY.

Wrath needs to be built, however. Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Maim, Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, Berserk, and Vengeance all give one stack per use. Infuriate instantly puts you at five stacks.

Steel Cyclone: You hit everything around you with some serious potency. It's an AoE that gets an enmity bonus. AND ignores the Defiance DPS penalty. The best part? Once you're 50, you can pop Infuriate to give yourself an instant 5 stacks of Wrath... meaning that you canÂ use Steel Cyclone at will so long as you have Infuriate. You can lead with this, build up toÂ it byÂ target-cycling your BB combo,Â or double-cast it by building up to 5 stacks of Wrath, popping Cyclone, thenÂ using Infuriate andÂ using Cyclone AGAIN. Â

Fracture: Only truly worth it on a MRD/WAR, since you get 30s duration. It counts as damage, which means it contributes ever so slightly to enmity. It's not a priority, but every little bit can help (WARNING: DON'T USE THIS FOR ENMITY PURPOSES. IT'S A DAMAGE SKILL, USE IT FOR DAMAGE. A LITTLE MORE ENMITY IS JUST ICING ON THE CAKE).

Unchained and Berserk: The real reasons a WAR should NEVER lose aggro to a near-equally-geared DPS. As previously mentioned, Unchained removes the 25% DPS penalty from Defiance for a short while, giving you your DPS back on top of your now-boosted enmity. Berserk just gives you boosted attack power. Couple these together (and maybe pop Internal Release if you've cross-classed it), start going into Butcher's Block combos (get Storm's Eye up before popping Unchained/Berserk if you can), build back up to Wrath V for the increased crit chance and suddenly you gain enmity faster than anything else in the game bar a Medica II -spamming White Mage.

Silver Rule of WAR: PLDsÂ pop a CD (cooldown) or twoÂ and they get the listed effects; WARs mix and match their CDs to achieve a desired effect, whether that be MASSIVE ENMITY BUILDING or HAHAHAHA I AMÂ PRACTICALLY INVINCIBLE FOR 15 SECONDS.

Example: Vengeance not only givesÂ you 30% DR (damage reduction) and a Wrath stack, it also redirects a portion of incoming physical damage (read: autoattacks, mostly) back at the source. That means if a bunch of mobs are wailing on you and you pop Vengeance, you are suddenly effectively wailing back on the mobs. So... have a large group of trash? Couple Vengeance with, yup, Bloodbath and suddenly... you're mitigating their damage more than 30% because you're effectively healing off the damage you're dealing to each and every mob.

Now... throw Unchained + Berserk + Overpower (another nifty combination) into the mix,Â and suddenly you're healing THAT MUCH MORE. Pop a cross-classed Second Wind while you're at it and you've got a large heal (yes, Berserk ups the heal on SW by upping your attack power) at your beck and call. Â

So. Optional in parans.

(Infuriate) -> Bloodbath -> Start Overpowering ->Â VengeanceÂ ->Â (Unchained) -> Berserk -> (Second Wind) -> OP, OP, OP until Bloodbath runs out. Add defensive CDs like ForesightÂ when and where appropriate.

Inner Beast: Hard-hitting 300 potency that ignores the 25% dps penalty from Defiance, heals for 100% of damage dealt, and gives you 20% damage reduction for 10 seconds. Coupled with Storm's Path and Vengeance? Holyyyyy sheeeeeet son, you're, like, the Juggernaut. Best part? Cycling through your BB and Storm combos, you can have Inner Beast ready for use roughly every 18 seconds, discounting Infuriate. This thing is core. This thing is whyÂ hardcore PvE folksÂ take WARs as Main Tanks againstÂ hard-hitting content like Twintania's Death Sentence.Â With Storm's Path, every 18 seconds youÂ have 30% Damage Reduction for 6 seconds. That's roughly 18 seconds of 30% DR for every minute-and-six-seconds. Start drooling.

Holmgang: So. Bloodbath lets us RIP AND TEAR and eat huge guts to get healthy again (WARÂ is kindaÂ about managing HP gain/loss compared to PLD's preventing HP loss). Holmgang lets us take fatal punches to the face like the glorious berzerkers we are and keep right on trucking. Six seconds that you can't move. Six seconds that your target is bound in place. Six seconds that you can't BE moved (screw you, Landslide!). Six seconds of effective invincibility where you literally cannot go under 1 health point. You don't even need Benediction or spammed Lustrates from your healers to get you back up: done right, assuming you saved some CDs, you can pop stuff like Inner Beast, Foresight, Vengeance, Thrill of Battle, etc. to get yourself enough of a cushion to more or less COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.Â Hallowed Ground is pansy by comparison (we still <3 you, Pally friends).

Thrill of Battle: Ya wanna survive Meteor?Â This thing effectively boosts both current and max hp for a significant duration, meaning it also acts as a self-heal of sorts. Also acts as a health buffer if you use it while topped off. Not as exciting as everything else... butÂ hey.

Mercy Stroke: Just as clutch as Holmgang. Last-hit something with this, and youÂ get a significant chunk of health back as a self-heal. Couple with Unchained and Berserk if you need to hit REALLY hard to insure you get the last hit instead of your damage dealers. Off GCD Instant skill, meaning you can slip it between weaponskills... meaning you can snag some health off that trash that's about to die while target-cycling. If you're not worried about getting health back or you're vs. a boss, just cast this whenever it's up and your target is low on HP for a DPS increase.

I'm sure I've forgotten a ton of stuff I could be talking about... but that'll get you going. WAR's more complex IMO than its counterpart tank in PLD.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **07-29-2014, 08:42 PM**

I find WAR to be pretty easy. For the most part, it's basically DPS with enmity generation.

I usually start off by pulling a group of enemies with tomohawk. ..if it's gonna be a bigger pull, maybe flash. Once I've gotten however many mobs I want, it's spam a couple overpowers and then start going through your "increase enmity" combo (Heavy swing -> skull sunder -> butcher's clock) a couple times on enemies as needed.

If you're tanking one single enemy (like a boss), then use the other combos. For lots of little stuff, work up that wrath and use a steel cyclone.

A little outdated, but this picture shows the basic gist of how to WAR.

[Image: CKPkwmk.png?1]

Warren Castille · **07-29-2014, 08:43 PM**

Try not to pull with Provoke. Flash doesn't Bind, but Paladins get a blind trait for it.

Osric seems to be on the money, though.

Melkire · **07-29-2014, 08:51 PM**

Those images are made for laughs and should not be taken seriously, as they only approximate the flow for a class to point out sheer stupidity (see: SCH, with Eos being the healer).

Case in point, the Monk chart advocates using Arm of the Destroyer for AoE DPS. trololololo

Kellach Woods · **07-30-2014, 01:04 AM**

Most of this stuff I'd figured out by my lonesome already. The cooldown combinations will be worked on as I get more experience tanking because those look baller as hell.

Although I gotta admit that Berserk's usage kind of eluded me before I read the paragraph about Vengeance. Now I can see popping Berserk, then tailgating it with Vengeance at the end so that you're doing some extra damage during Pacification for more sustained. At the same time, your utility is still there so even against bosses you need to use your only interrupt, you're not missing anything (Pacification doesn't block Brutal Swing after all!)

I guess I was still stuck in the typical tank mentality of "Rotate cooldowns because using more than one at the same time is a waste." Warriors aren't typical tanks. That's why I actually like playing the class. Derp.

I'll give this a more detailed read when I'm not swamped with overtime at work.

Also, any image that references the cat dps flowchart (or hell, any of the well-known flowcharts) should never be taken seriously. Even I know that much.

synaesthetic · **07-30-2014, 06:53 AM**

People are overcomplicating this.

Tanking, like basically everything in XIV, is incredibly simple compared to other MMOs. You do not have to actively block. You don't have to avoid showing your back to bosses or risk being instagibbed by a crit/crushing blow. You don't have to juggle perfect parry, defense and block ratings to achieve critical hit immunity. You also don't have 38 different abilities that you commonly use while tanking. You don't have to constantly dodge massive spams of ever-shifting AE telegraphs with odd shapes.

Basically tanking as a WAR goes like this:

Use your damage cooldowns. Do your threat combo. Do your debuffing combo. Rotate defensive cooldowns as damage comes in. Keep Inner Beast on standby if you know you're going to need to eat a big hit, or use it for extra DPS/threat if you know the damage won't be spiky.

If the boss hits like a semi truck, keep Storm's Path up. Don't forget to use Fracture for extra threat and DPS (don't listen to people who say DoTs don't generate threat, ask any good geared SMN how close they get to pulling hate at any time on raid bosses). Make sure you use Holmgang a moment before things really start going south.Â Because apparently in XIV, panic buttons are not actually panic buttons and the defensive buff takes a couple of seconds to actually register.

Use Vengeance in conjunction with Bloodbath and Berserk, especially if you're tanking a bunch of trash; you can kinda just throw out Overpowers and the healing helps mitigate the damage you take. Use your other cooldowns whenever you know you might need to weather some massive damage... pop Convalescence afterÂ taking massive damage to help get healed up fast. Save Thrill of Battle for when you get low on HP--it'll give you a bit of a boost, drop Inner Beast right after it, and while it's up lustrates will heal you for more than usual. It's helpful to use to crawl back from low HP. On raid bosses I usually just use Foresight and Featherfoot between my better cooldowns and Inner Beast, just to make things a little easier on the healers.

The hardest part of warrior tanking for me was learning when (and when not) to use Inner Beast. There are two problems with Inner Beast--one is that it's not an off-GCD skill, so you can't treat it like a panic button unless you are just not attacking, which should be never unless there's some mechanic that requires you to not attack. The other problem is the damage mitigation it provides only lasts six seconds. So. You sort of have to know when and where you're going to use it, which means you won't use it very effectively on a fight you don't have lots of experience with.

On Twintania I save Inner Beast for death sentence. It's regular, I know when it comes, it announces itself with a cast bar, so... yeah. Easy. Not all bosses are as polite as the Allagan Empire's pet guard wyvern, so you definitely need to get used to the boss before you can start really using your mitigation tools to their greatest effect.

Practice, practice, practice. Try running dungeons and pulling several trash packs at once; it's good practice on learning how to stay alive when taking lotsÂ of damage, but without having the risk of making your raid members upset with you since you're just in a 4-player dungeon with friends.

Kellach Woods · **07-30-2014, 07:11 AM**

(07-30-2014, 06:53 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Because apparently in XIV, panic buttons are not actually panic buttons and the defensive buff takes a couple of seconds to actually register.

Goes with everything apparently. Even before playing the game I kept hearing complaints of "BUT I DODGED THAT HIT" because the orange zone doesn't disappear as the ability completes casting but only starts doing so when the cast time's done, leading to a false positive.

I've also noticed it's pretty generous with the latency (can press at 1/5th left of cooldown and it won't eat the input or say cannot cast that yet) and that some abilities having a long start-up (Butcher's one of them, IB isn't that bad but it's at least one full second before the hit registers which is when the defense buff comes in).

Panic Button might end up being Infuriate + IB. Infuriate's on a 60 sec cooldown so if it's up and I don't have 5 Wrath yet might be a good idea provided the ability is pretty slow.

synaesthetic · **07-30-2014, 05:04 PM**

The problem isn't only that certain defensive buffs take 1-2 seconds to apply, but also no ability in the game activates exactly when its cast finishes. It always waits for the animation to complete.

It's easy to see this on WAR since Butcher Block has such a long animation. Whack something with it and then run away. You'l see your chara continue to swing wildly at the air and then when you're already about ten meters out, the damage number will appear over the enemy. Tongue

Melkire · **07-30-2014, 05:10 PM**

(07-30-2014, 05:04 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: The problem isn't only that certain defensive buffs take 1-2 seconds to apply, but also no ability in the game activates exactly when its cast finishes. It always waits for the animation to complete.

It's easy to see this on WAR since Butcher Block has such a long animation. Whack something with it and then run away. You'l see your chara continue to swing wildly at the air and then when you're already about ten meters out, the damage number will appear over the enemy.

Things get even weirder when you start weaving Off GCDs (read: Instants) in between weaponskills like Butcher's Block. Great example is Mercy Stroke. Shit gets bizarre.

That said, I'm under the impression that, in your example, the damage actually gets applied at the end of the cast, but the animation and numerical display don't finish and don't kick in until long after.

Merri · **07-31-2014, 04:10 AM**

Have a big of a headache right now, so I won't delve too deeply into Warrior finesse, and most has already been covered anyhow, however I didn't see any mention of gearing (unless I'm blind), which is something I thought I'd touch on.

Unless you're doing progression on turn 9, you quite literally don't need VIT accessories as a Warrior. I wear my STR accessories in all content except for turn 9, though even this is only temporary. Gearing wise, you should also aim for Det and Crit, as opposed to parry, unless you plan on getting into being a MT in late endgame. You can also forfeit your 30 points into VIT and rock 30 STR instead, as with current tier equipment (even unweathered) you have more than enough HP for all content outside of coil 2. I think I'm sitting at about 8.5k with full STR accessories right now. If you're running coil 1, normal dungeons, or primal EXs, you can just go full STR mode and wreck. My Warrior is close to i110, and with that build I see 1500+ butcher's blocks, and 1700+ Inner Beasts while rocking full CDs. It's sexy.

[Image: xwoq6Na.png]

Most late endgame OT Warriors actually drop their VIT entirely and just go full STR once their statics have turn 9 down pat. While learning, it definitely helps to have the extra 2,000 HP cushion. Even with about 10,400 HP in turn 9, I feel like a paper bag. Things hit hard.

But, point being, unless you're pushing that content, you can basically drop all of your vitality and go full beast mode. Hell, these days I actually queue into certain things as Marauder, as you can wreck even harder with Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, etc.

Kellach Woods · **07-31-2014, 07:29 AM**

I'll take that in consideration. Honestly it really felt like the 30 VIT wasn't doing much for me. It may have kept me alive in a singular situation but any situation where 30 VIT would have kept me alive is generally a minor factor. Healer falling asleep (as in, the player) or my own shortcomings in cooldown management (or misuse of Holmgang) would be better fixes in the long term.

Zyrusticae · **07-31-2014, 03:06 PM**

(07-31-2014, 04:10 AM)Merri Wrote: [snip]

But, point being, unless you're pushing that content, you can basically drop all of your vitality and go full beast mode. Hell, these days I actually queue into certain things as Marauder, as you can wreck even harder with Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, etc.

This is a good post and I applaud you for making it.

It honestly kind of annoyed me how much people put emphasis on VIT when the game launched, completely ignoring the benefits of extra damage (and thus extra threat generation) and the fact that most content in the game really doesn't require anywhere near maxed out VIT in the first place.

And yeah, MRD damage output is incredible. Tankiness and high damage in one beefy package? What's not to like?

Kellach Woods · **07-31-2014, 11:06 PM**

Also STR grants you some mitigation (italicized because it's minor) in augmenting parry in addition to your damage.

Merri · **07-31-2014, 11:25 PM**

(07-31-2014, 11:06 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Also STR grants you some mitigation (italicized because it's minor) in augmenting parry in addition to your damage.

It does, however Parry is ultimately the most worthless stat ever. It's nice to have if you're main tanking, however it's incredibly unreliable compared to blocking, and it's our only means of raw damage mitigation outside of dodging, compared to Paladins blocking, dodging, and parrying.

Basically, any hit that is going to actually hurt you has to be pre-emptively covered via actual CDs and (over)healing. You can't ever rely on parry to save you from huge hits, as quite simply put there's no guarantee it will proc. That being said, it mitigates chip damage at best over time, and in most cases going with stats like Det and Crit will better benefit a Warrior if you have good healers and know how to manage your cooldowns properly.

There's been huge debates on the usefulness of parry for some time, and unless you're main tanking Coil 2, it's just one of those stats that doesn't really have any viable use in most content, as it's benefits are minimal at best. Beyond this, parry from strength is actually based on percentages hard capped at certain STR thresholds.

So, let's say you have 200 STR. Using that as a rough example. Let's say it puts you at 20% base parry. 240 STR, however, puts you at 21% base parry. Any points of strength between 200 and 240 will do literally nothing for your parry. It won't increase at all until after you've breached the 240 hard cap, which will then roll your natural parry chance over to the next percentage.

Of course, this really has no point in the grand scheme of things, as you'll just naturally get raw parry from your STR and it is what it is, as you mentioned. Just thought I'd touch on it for the sake of touching on it. :>

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I r bad at taking hits to the face (WAR)

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