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Knight Kat · **02-06-2015, 06:33 AM**

I like the answers thus far. This is actually a good thread. It is nice to see there are still level heads in the community. So, I got another one for everyone.

Most keep saying IC and OOC have to be absolutely separate. To me, that is an ideal, and as I RP more, I tend to see this supposed "rule" broken too many times. Everyone seems to strive for it, but I don't see most ever get to that point completely.

I think I know why because as much as we don't want to admit it, IC actions -do- have some OOC consequences.

For example, lets say some characters become an IC problem because they can no longer get along with certain other characters for whatever reasons are used to justify the conflict. In order to not make the conflict a constant focal point of an entire group's RP, one or both parties need to come to an agreement or leave. Right?

Well, what if leaving becomes the only route? Sometimes, characters just can't get along. Yes, most of us are adults and should be able to discuss matters like such OOC, but what if the two parties ICly disagree, and go separate ways?

That effects RP. It effects who they can RP with on those specific characters, and maybe even where they can RP with those specific characters. In Askier's example, he had to ICly leave. That means his RP on Askier became more limited to an extant. Fortunately, in his case, he seems okay with how things turned out. However, what if a player didn't OOCly want things to turn out the way they did IC?

Now back to my original example in my previous post of a player who thinks their character is justified, and thinks that the effected outcome is the fault of the player who's character their character was in conflict with. Suddenly what should have stayed IC has become OOC. The whole "Your character ruined my character's chances of being in that group!" kind of thing.

To me, it is best to never be OOCly dead-set on a path for your character. With Kiht, I let RP guide her. If she ends up where she wants to be, great. If she does not, I can still work with that and have fun. Kiht is the Matriarch of her own group, but sometimes I dream about her being a lone scout again. I could be happy with either case. However, I tend to see many characters set up to be too dependent on specific story elements, or even the presents of certain other characters. I often see this lead to OOC disappointment.

TL;DR: I think RPers should be prepared for IC actions to lead to consequences that will influence the direction of RP; maybe even into an undesirable direction. If such does happens, other players should not be blamed for it.

Caspar · **02-06-2015, 06:47 AM**

(02-06-2015, 04:12 AM)Eleni Wrote: 1. David from The Last of Us. Played by Nolan North. Now, when you first meet David, he seems like a nice guy, agrees to help Ellie, and even helps her through an Infected Horde. Then he turns out to be one hell of an asshole, cannibalistic and crazy. So, you can never judge a character based on one appearance. Secondly, Nolan North is known for a lot of other memorable roles as well, would you call him crazy and evil just because he voiced David?

2. The Joker. Played by Heath Ledger. No spoilers for this one because, hey, who doesn't know the Joker, and I'm pretty sure every one has seen The Dark Knight. Now, we all know the Joker is a lunatic, perhaps the baddest of baddies in comic books. The things he has done to scar Batman are numerous. But, would you say Heath Ledger was the same just because he played him?Â

Bottom line, do not judge a person based on their character. IC and OOC are two completely different things, i.e, person is not equal to character. Character is character and that's it.Â

I got hungry after typing all that. XD

Hm, I think that the idea of casting-related writing or exploiting an actor's image to give a character a certain effect is probably related to the same impressions thing that comes from letting OOC bleed into IC or vice versa. It's easy to unconsciously do it.

Nebbs · **02-06-2015, 07:00 AM**

Off the wall but.. There is only OOC?

We decide what our characters do, no one else. We are not playing a part that someone else has written, we are responding to what is happening in a scene and then translating that to actions of a character.

So while there may be separation of context, there is no separation of responsibility.Â

Now we are all flawed and have different norms, so friction will occur. If that is spoiling the enjoyment and can't be resolved IC, you need to talk OOC. Though even then, just because it is OOC does not mean things will be nice and smooth.Â

People sometimes get along and sometimes they don't... that's just Life.

Parvacake · **02-06-2015, 07:41 AM**

(02-06-2015, 06:33 AM)Knight Kat Wrote: Most keep saying IC and OOC have to be absolutely separate. To me, that is an ideal, and as I RP more, I tend to see this supposed "rule" broken too many times. Everyone seems to strive for it, but I don't see most ever get to that point completely. Â

I think I know why because as much as we don't want to admit it, IC actions -do- have some OOC consequences.

For example, lets say some characters become an IC problem because they can no longer get along with certain other characters for whatever reasons are used to justify the conflict. In order to not make the conflict a constant focal point of an entire group's RP, one or both parties need to come to an agreement or leave. Right?

Well, what if leaving becomes the only route? Sometimes, characters just can't get along. Yes, most of us are adults and should be able to discuss matters like such OOC, but what if the two parties ICly disagree, and go separate ways?

That effects RP. It effects who they can RP with on those specific characters, and maybe even where they can RP with those specific characters. In Askier's example, he had to ICly leave. That means his RP on Askier became more limited to an extant. Fortunately, in his case, he seems okay with how things turned out. However, what if a player didn't OOCly want things to turn out the way they did IC?

Now back to my original example in my previous post of a player who thinks their character is justified, and thinks that the effected outcome is the fault of the player who's character their character was in conflict with. Suddenly what should have stayed IC has become OOC. The whole "Your character ruined my character's chances of being in that group!" kind of thing.

To me, it is best to never be OOCly dead-set on a path for your character. With Kiht, I let RP guide her. If she ends up where she wants to be, great. If she does not, I can still work with that and have fun. Kiht is the Matriarch of her own group, but sometimes I dream about her being a lone scout again. I could be happy with either case. However, I tend to see many characters set up to be too dependent on specific story elements, or even the presents of certain other characters. I often see this lead to OOC disappointment.

TL;DR: I think RPers should be prepared for IC actions to lead to consequences that will influence the direction of RP; maybe even into an undesirable direction. If such does happens, other players should not be blamed for it.

We have this as a rule in my FC's regulations that can be summed up into: IC actions beget IC consequences just as OOC actions beget OOC consequences. I don't feel bad for someone who plays a Baddie McBadderson who gets on other characters' bad sides and gets exiled ICly in the FC. The player should have realized that certain things were not acceptable and would cause a backlash. I've met quite a few who understand this rule, but I've met just as many who huff and puff.

Now, when it comes to IC feelings and OOC feelings mixing, I feel like there's only one instance where it's even remotely acceptable. And it's this one simply scenario:

When OOC actions ruin an RP.

Actions. Argument. Etc. Whatever may apply. It's one thing if IC reasons and events will make something sputter and die. If it's effected purely by OOC because of a conflict or other factors, that's when I get uncomfortable. However, at the same time? There are exceptions to every rule.

Bopdoot · **02-06-2015, 10:26 AM**

(02-06-2015, 12:39 AM)Kamome Wrote: Also.

Take this!

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

Lol!Â I scored an 18

"17-21 Points
MMO/RPG/Original Fiction: Low chance your character is a Mary Sue."

Thumbsup

Gegenji · **02-06-2015, 11:10 AM**

(02-06-2015, 10:26 AM)Bopdoot Wrote:
(02-06-2015, 12:39 AM)Kamome Wrote: Also.

Take this!

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

Lol!Â I scored an 18

"17-21 Points
MMO/RPG/Original Fiction: Low chance your character is a Mary Sue."

I missed this! Chachan scored a 16.

Question 75 is mean, though. Chachan has a lot of friends who have very pretty character models and they do exciting things!

Flickering Ember · **02-06-2015, 11:45 AM**

(02-05-2015, 08:47 AM)Knight Kat Wrote: So, I hope it's not off-topic to kinda ask questions for people to respond to and think about rather than give answers. I don't think things are always so cut and dry.

What happens when two characters in the same group (Group of friends or small FC) can't ICly get along for a vast majority of the time? At what point does constant conflict between specific two characters (or two parties of characters) ruin a story?

For example, in the x-men moves (plz forgive this reference) Cyclops and Wolverine are rivals. In the scenes they are in, they never get along and always look like they are on the verge of fighting. Movies run on a scrip though; RP usually doesn't. What if 90% of the movie turned into Cyclops VS Wolverine with all characters on the sidelines just sighing and face-palming? Would that have made a good movie?

Well, one answer I would expect is for the players to OOCly discuss it. But what if the players of the rival characters each OOCly feel their own character is justified in their IC actions and reactions?

IMHO, that is when separation is in order. But what if that causes plotting and story to become overly complicated, or makes it so separation is impossible because the group all wants to do things together? Who gets left out?

If one of the rivals has to be removed from the group; thus, removing them from some or all RP with the group as a whole, how do you tell a person getting removed (who thinks their character is in the right) why their character is being removed without upsetting them OOC?

I have witnessed scenarios like this actually happen several times. This can actually ruin the RP progression and story of a group. An endless conflict and popularity contest may be fun for some, but most I have talked to find it not fun at all. Â

In my RP, my character is either contributing to her own story, or the story of some other character. If my character is being a chronic disruption to another character's story, I find an IC reason to remove her from it unless asked otherwise. Even if I feel my character is in the right, I can accept that others may not agree, and be willing to make it so she is no longer a major element or problem. However, some may see this as bending a character, and I might be hard-pressed to argue with them. But I am RPing to develop a good story, and help others develop a good story. If someone feels my character is not helping with that, I am not offended to be told such. The problem is, what if I feel I have to tell someone else that? How do I do so without upsetting them, or making them think I am leaking IC into OOC? Â

If this is too off-topic, I'll gladly make a separate thread about it.

I think scenarios like this often become a matter of turning role-play into "my character must win!" The role player is probably not actually thinking that but it is what is happening in practice. I find it hard to believe, for example, that one of the characters wouldn't just get fed up over the arguing and start ignoring the other person, or that they wouldn't run out of things to say, or that they might actually be offended by something that was said. There are a multitude of ways to role-play two characters who don't get along without letting it dominate anyone else's role-play.

As much as I love immersion and staying in character as much as possible, sometimes being perfectly IC is not the most fun way to do things either. I find that RP starts to become questionable when it is no longer fun.

Dimona · **02-06-2015, 12:49 PM**

Something I have seen happen in other role-play experiences but not in ARR yet anyways, is where one or two role-players will constantly and continually kind of overshadow others. I don't think this is intentional when it happens, but it seems like these people are so focused on the storytelling aspect of things that they lose sight of the fact that there are several others who are also trying to tell a story as well. These players' characters often exhibit Sue-like tendencies and have a very hard time "letting things play out" without in some way having to involve their character. There is maybe some argument to be made for characters having to "sit on the bench" during some things and some players, and arguably some characters, don't like this.

I see this as different from that character archetype "captain of the table" where a self-important character exerts that sort of arrogance in-character. That can still happen while other characters' stories play out normally. What I'm speaking to is the character who involves himself (or herself) in everything, and the role-play effectively drowns out other peoples' stories.

I think a good role-player and storyteller realizes that his or her character may be a compelling force in their own story arcs, but also serves as secondary/supporting or backup character in others' story arcs and owns this.

One of my biggest grievances with the Internet in general is that it has almost become a cacophany of people talking, complaining, voicing thoughts and opinions and concerns and making "noise" but too little actual reading, analyzing, and appreciating of the words written. That was the biggest put-off in other role-play communities: too much "memememememe!" and not enough "wow you're awesome too!!!" I am happy to say that I haven't seen much of that mentality on Balmung or the HRPC. You folks are great! Big Grin

Gegenji · **02-06-2015, 12:54 PM**

(02-06-2015, 12:49 PM)Dimona Wrote: I think a good role-player and storyteller realizes that his or her character may be a compelling force in their own story arcs, but also serves as secondary/supporting or backup character in others' story arcs and owns this.

This can be harder than one thinks, too. There's definitely a great feeling of accomplishment when your character helps another person's character hit a milestone or otherwise accomplish something. However, there's a fine line between helping a character reach a goal and overtaking their story to help them complete the goal for them.

And, being the eternal worrier I am, I sometimes wonder if I'm pushing too far into the limelight.

Dimona · **02-06-2015, 01:01 PM**

(02-06-2015, 12:54 PM)Gegenji Wrote: And, being the eternal worrier I am, I sometimes wonder if I'm pushing too far into the limelight.

I think if you're worried or thinking you might be pushy with your character, you are probably fine. Some people I don't think are even cognizent of this.

Gegenji · **02-06-2015, 01:08 PM**

(02-06-2015, 01:01 PM)Dimona Wrote:
(02-06-2015, 12:54 PM)Gegenji Wrote: And, being the eternal worrier I am, I sometimes wonder if I'm pushing too far into the limelight.
I think if you're worried or thinking you might be pushy with your character, you are probably fine. Â Some people I don't think are even cognizent of this.

That would make it difficult to identify and correct though, wouldn't it? How would you know you're doing something wrong if you're not even aware you're doing it? Then you get those situations where people call you out or, god forbid, try to punish you for doing something you're not even aware you're doing. My sister got booted from a FC because apparently a few folks didn't like the tone with which she talked to them, and she (and I) were horribly confused when we logged on and she had been booted from it.

... Though, I suppose that just reinforces how important communication is. As is, try talking to people if they're doing something you're not comfortable with. It could easily be the case that they're not even aware they're doing it.

Zhavi · **02-06-2015, 01:11 PM**

(02-06-2015, 07:00 AM)Nebbs Wrote: Off the wall but.. There is only OOC?

We decide what our characters do, no one else. We are not playing a part that someone else has written, we are responding to what is happening in a scene and then translating that to actions of a character.

So while there may be separation of context, there is no separation of responsibility.Â

Now we are all flawed and have different norms, so friction will occur. If that is spoiling the enjoyment and can't be resolved IC, you need to talk OOC. Though even then, just because it is OOC does not mean things will be nice and smooth.Â

People sometimes get along and sometimes they don't... that's just Life.

I disagree. Certain things need to be kept separate -- one thing that I have seen happen too often is when two characters fall in love icly. Now, it's fine if both of the players are romantically involved, too, but sometimes one of the players starts liking the other player, but that feeling isn't returned. OOC stalking ensues, kills the rp, and leaves the player being stalked feeling unsafe and harassed.

Another thing is two characters have a disagreement, or a character does something really bad. The other characters start to dislike that character. OOCly, the players start to dislike the player of the bad character. That player then becomes an outcast in the community, despite the fact that the player is nothing like the character.

Last one: Something bad happens to a character. The player of that character takes the pain the character is going through and internalizes it until it gets to the point that the player is depressed with everyday actions, and the angst begins to affect the player's life.

These are a little extreme, yes, but they can and have happened before and clearly show that there should be a line between the characters and what they are doing, and the players' lives. Yes, you're right that there will be some bleed-through, because we are the ones in control -- but there is a line that should not be crossed. We are not our characters, and we do not live in the world our characters live in. That must be acknowledged at all times.

We are playing pretend in a way that lets us have fun and experience occasional catharsis, nothing more.

Tiergan · **02-06-2015, 01:39 PM**

I agree IC/OOC is an ideal and that there are sometimes small harmless ways where things blend slightly. For example: recently Tiergan was speaking with a friend who was leaving in a way that suggested she was essentially going on a suicide quest to prevent others from being hurt and he couldn't talk her out of it. The conversation between the two friends was heartbreaking and I may or may not have teared up a little because of all the FEELS.

That is a minor example of IC affecting me OOC. However, at no point did I suddenly start feeling ACTUALLY as heartbroken and despairing as Tiergan as though the friend were actually a real person that was going away. I didn't harass the player to MAKE her character stay the same way Tiergan was trying to demand that his friend not go walking to her death. Things affected me the same way a sad part of a book would affect me.

No one, including myself, was hurt in the process and I think THAT is the important key thing people are talking about when they say "Keep IC separate from OOC at all times." To do no harm to each other.

IC might affect OOC or OOC might affect IC in small harmless ways (ex: That cheerful moment between my character and her friends made me feel really happy!" Or "I am feeling really tired today so I will RP my character being tired and lethargic as well so I don't have to think too hard during RP. :V") -- but ever to the extent where it negatively impacts other people or myself.

All the examples we give of bad ic/ooc mix are examples of harm. Making a player uncomfortable by falling in love with them in real life at the same time as falling in love with their character. Being OOCly aggressive and demanding of someone's time and who they hang out with just because they are in a relationship with your character IC. Hating someone OOC because you hate their character OOC.

I also agree that when people run into issues where the IC actions resulted in OOC unhappiness, it is a result of not communicating and not really thinking through the IC consequences of your IC actions. If your character tries to murder several people in broad daylight in front of the Quicksand - it is a little extreme to be upset that all the Brass Blade/Flames/Sultansworn characters ever would suddenly be SUPER aggressive towards your character IC

Tiergan · **02-06-2015, 01:45 PM**

(02-06-2015, 07:00 AM)Nebbs Wrote: Off the wall but.. There is only OOC?

We decide what our characters do, no one else. We are not playing a part that someone else has written, we are responding to what is happening in a scene and then translating that to actions of a character.

So while there may be separation of context, there is no separation of responsibility.Â

Now we are all flawed and have different norms, so friction will occur. If that is spoiling the enjoyment and can't be resolved IC, you need to talk OOC. Though even then, just because it is OOC does not mean things will be nice and smooth.Â

People sometimes get along and sometimes they don't... that's just Life.

I am having trouble understanding what you mean by this. Are you saying there is not really an IC because all of our decisions are made OOC and thus all IC actions have the same weight and responsibility as OOC actions? Because if so - I STRONGLY disagree and would honestly be really, really unsettled by this line of thinking. That is like saying all villainous characters should bear the same kind of OOC weight as if they were committing a real crime. Or that people in an IC relationship should be just as dedicated to their IC lover as their OOC lover.

There MUST be a separation or you are doing harm.

Aya · **02-06-2015, 01:50 PM**

(02-06-2015, 01:45 PM)Tiergan Wrote: I am having trouble understanding what you mean by this. Â Are you saying there is not really an IC because all of our decisions are made OOC and thus all IC actions have the same weight and responsibility as OOC actions? Â Because if so - I STRONGLY disagree and would honestly be really, really unsettled by this line of thinking. Â That is like saying all villainous characters should bear the same kind of OOC weight as if they were commiting a rel crime. Â Or that people in an IC relationship should be just as dedicated to their IC lover as their OOC lover.

There MUST be a separation or you are doing harm.

We have no more responsibility for our character's actions than an actor playing a character, or a writer writing a character's part.

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The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way

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