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ArmachiA · **03-12-2015, 11:21 PM**

(03-12-2015, 09:31 PM)Knight Kat Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 02:29 PM)Verad Wrote: I strongly dislike when the leader of an RP FC has both an OOC and IC position of authority.*Â

I've often found that in other MMOs, such guilds lend themselves towards cults of personality and the encouraging of abusive and predatory behavior on the part of the leader. Often, people join the FC on the strength of their roleplay with the leader without considering whether the rest of the FC will be as entertaining, and it encourages plots to be about The Adventures of FC Leader and Supporting Cast.

None of the above is universally true, of course, but I've seen it happen enough, especially within the "House RP" community of World of Warcraft, that I am leery of any FC with a history describing how so-and-so leader is central to the foundations of the group.

*Disclaimer - Dubious Distributions positions Verad and myself as the OOC and IC authority within the FC. I am extremelyÂ uncomfortable with this position and fight it by mocking his actual level of authority over anybody in the FC whenever possible. Take that for what you will.

So, this following question is not only aimed at Verad, but anyone who also shares this opinion. I ask because this legitimately concerns me.

How does one truly run an FC where the OOC leader's character is not the IC leader? Or, where the IC leading character has no OOC authority?

Maybe I misunderstood here, but I am thinking about this, and I can't see an answer. For example, if I am an OOC leader, and Kiht is not IC leader, I will still have to closely coordinate and manage with whoever is the IC leader. This will give the person who plays the IC leader a sort of position of authority on an OOC level as well. How can the two be separated in a way that make the FC still function?

How my FC is currently run is Kiht and Khloe co-lead the FC together. But we are also co-leaders on an OOC level. In the instance we ever dead-lock on a decision, we would bring in a senior member as a tie-breaker, or call for an FC vote.

It has worked well so far, but the FC is just over two months old, and still small.

When I ran the Night Blades, my character was in no position of authority. Armi just isn't very authoritative in character, so she was a regular grunt (PR), however my fiance was the IC Leader. You're right, you basically have to communicate very closely with your IC leader to make sure everything is being run correctly.I wouldn't give it too a stranger, but someone who's a friend who's character is more suited for the position.
IC officers generally weren't OOC officers because people who played authoritative characters icly may not be very good at actually officership oocly and visa versa.
In our FC - those are two different roles.

However, things have kind of lined up lately and Ellion recently took over the guild oocly - meaning he's the head ic and ooc and a few of our officers are ICly also officers. This is actually a coincidence.

HOWEVER, I don't really see an issue with the FC leader oocly being the leader ICly. It works a lot of time, don't know why people have an issue with it.

Kou · **03-12-2015, 11:46 PM**

(03-12-2015, 11:21 PM)ArmachiA Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 09:31 PM)Knight Kat Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 02:29 PM)Verad Wrote: I strongly dislike when the leader of an RP FC has both an OOC and IC position of authority.*Â

I've often found that in other MMOs, such guilds lend themselves towards cults of personality and the encouraging of abusive and predatory behavior on the part of the leader. Often, people join the FC on the strength of their roleplay with the leader without considering whether the rest of the FC will be as entertaining, and it encourages plots to be about The Adventures of FC Leader and Supporting Cast.

None of the above is universally true, of course, but I've seen it happen enough, especially within the "House RP" community of World of Warcraft, that I am leery of any FC with a history describing how so-and-so leader is central to the foundations of the group.

*Disclaimer - Dubious Distributions positions Verad and myself as the OOC and IC authority within the FC. I am extremelyÂ uncomfortable with this position and fight it by mocking his actual level of authority over anybody in the FC whenever possible. Take that for what you will.

So, this following question is not only aimed at Verad, but anyone who also shares this opinion. I ask because this legitimately concerns me.

How does one truly run an FC where the OOC leader's character is not the IC leader? Or, where the IC leading character has no OOC authority?

Maybe I misunderstood here, but I am thinking about this, and I can't see an answer. For example, if I am an OOC leader, and Kiht is not IC leader, I will still have to closely coordinate and manage with whoever is the IC leader. This will give the person who plays the IC leader a sort of position of authority on an OOC level as well. How can the two be separated in a way that make the FC still function?

How my FC is currently run is Kiht and Khloe co-lead the FC together. But we are also co-leaders on an OOC level. In the instance we ever dead-lock on a decision, we would bring in a senior member as a tie-breaker, or call for an FC vote.

It has worked well so far, but the FC is just over two months old, and still small.

When I ran the Night Blades, my character was in no position of authority. Armi just isn't very authoritative in character, so she was a regular grunt (PR), however my fiance was the IC Leader. You're right, you basically have to communicate very closely with your IC leader to make sure everything is being run correctly.I wouldn't give it too a stranger, but someone who's a friend who's character is more suited for the position.
IC officers generally weren't OOC officers because people who played authoritative characters icly may not be very good at actually officership oocly and visa versa.
In our FC - those are two different roles.

However, things have kind of lined up lately and Ellion recently took over the guild oocly - meaning he's the head ic and ooc and a few of our officers are ICly also officers. This is actually a coincidence.

HOWEVER, I don't really see an issue with the FC leader oocly being the leader ICly. It works a lot of time, don't know why people have an issue with it.

I've personally run a guild/FC/whatever-you-want-to-call-it both IC and OOC. I'm significantly better at OOC leading, however. IC, my characters tend to wind up in those positions entirely on accident.

I've also seen people as both IC and OOC leads. Sometimes it works fantastically, and sometimes it doesn't. I personally believe it comes down to an individual level. Some people are fantastic leaders, both IC and OOC. Some people are power-hungry megalomaniacs that need a good clonk on the head. Note: This isn't an attack on anyone, simply a statement designed entirely for humourous purposes.

Personally, I think FCs/Guilds/Clans are run better with a council of sorts. Having a single leader making all the executive decisions is, actually, what turns me off (hey, look, topic!)

Makyn Loneseeker · **03-12-2015, 11:55 PM**

(03-12-2015, 11:46 PM)Kou Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 11:21 PM)ArmachiA Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 09:31 PM)Knight Kat Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 02:29 PM)Verad Wrote: I strongly dislike when the leader of an RP FC has both an OOC and IC position of authority.*Â

I've often found that in other MMOs, such guilds lend themselves towards cults of personality and the encouraging of abusive and predatory behavior on the part of the leader. Often, people join the FC on the strength of their roleplay with the leader without considering whether the rest of the FC will be as entertaining, and it encourages plots to be about The Adventures of FC Leader and Supporting Cast.

None of the above is universally true, of course, but I've seen it happen enough, especially within the "House RP" community of World of Warcraft, that I am leery of any FC with a history describing how so-and-so leader is central to the foundations of the group.

*Disclaimer - Dubious Distributions positions Verad and myself as the OOC and IC authority within the FC. I am extremelyÂ uncomfortable with this position and fight it by mocking his actual level of authority over anybody in the FC whenever possible. Take that for what you will.

So, this following question is not only aimed at Verad, but anyone who also shares this opinion. I ask because this legitimately concerns me.

How does one truly run an FC where the OOC leader's character is not the IC leader? Or, where the IC leading character has no OOC authority?

Maybe I misunderstood here, but I am thinking about this, and I can't see an answer. For example, if I am an OOC leader, and Kiht is not IC leader, I will still have to closely coordinate and manage with whoever is the IC leader. This will give the person who plays the IC leader a sort of position of authority on an OOC level as well. How can the two be separated in a way that make the FC still function?

How my FC is currently run is Kiht and Khloe co-lead the FC together. But we are also co-leaders on an OOC level. In the instance we ever dead-lock on a decision, we would bring in a senior member as a tie-breaker, or call for an FC vote.

It has worked well so far, but the FC is just over two months old, and still small.

When I ran the Night Blades, my character was in no position of authority. Armi just isn't very authoritative in character, so she was a regular grunt (PR), however my fiance was the IC Leader. You're right, you basically have to communicate very closely with your IC leader to make sure everything is being run correctly.I wouldn't give it too a stranger, but someone who's a friend who's character is more suited for the position.
IC officers generally weren't OOC officers because people who played authoritative characters icly may not be very good at actually officership oocly and visa versa.
In our FC - those are two different roles.

However, things have kind of lined up lately and Ellion recently took over the guild oocly - meaning he's the head ic and ooc and a few of our officers are ICly also officers. This is actually a coincidence.

HOWEVER, I don't really see an issue with the FC leader oocly being the leader ICly. It works a lot of time, don't know why people have an issue with it.
I've personally run a guild/FC/whatever-you-want-to-call-it both IC and OOC. I'm significantly better at OOC leading, however. IC, my characters tend to wind up in those positions entirely on accident.

I've also seen people as both IC and OOC leads. Sometimes it works fantastically, and sometimes it doesn't. I personally believe it comes down to an individual level. Some people are fantastic leaders, both IC and OOC. Some people are power-hungry megalomaniacs that need a good clonk on the head. Note: This isn't an attack on anyone, simply a statement designed entirely for humourous purposes.

Personally, I think FCs/Guilds/Clans are run better with a council of sorts. Having a single leader making all the executive decisions is, actually, what turns me off (hey, look, topic!)

-Knows the deets-
It wasn't on accident. c:

I like the council idea, too, numerous heads are better than one. If one messes up, the others can clonk him/her.

Though, sometimes the other council members can leave and leave a certain other by themselves. >w>

ArmachiA · **03-13-2015, 12:15 AM**

Unless the FC lead is a weird power hungry maniac, there's generally always a "council" with one person taking the head. My guild has 7 officers for instance.

I actually did run the Night Blades by myself for a few months in FFXIV, it was the worst experience of my life. I was on 17 hours a day, only not on to sleep. I have no idea how anyone would run an FC alone.

Spethah · **03-13-2015, 12:34 AM**

I'm on the same boat as a load of people here but I'll throw what my red flags are anyway.

Enforced Voice ChatÂ - Now I actually love listening to conversations and I love speaking to people in voice chat mostly due to the fact I don't talk to people often, but I have limits. Sometimes I don't want to listen to people talking and I just want to listen to music/watch something while I'm farming and so forth. Having ONLY the voice chat as a way to communicate with other FC members is a no-no. I don't mind it being there if I can still talk to people in text format elsewhere though.Â

DistastefulÂ leadership - This tends to go everywhere so I'll try and generalise it. It could be the attitude of the leader or officers or it could be the actions they do, but if I see something that gets me uncomfortable or really not pleased an alarm bell is going to ring with me leaving very quickly. It could be favouritism, it could be gender preference, it could be the leader having a terrible attitude towards something and people are just ignoring it. I just don't tolerate that stuff and it seriously ruins my fun the more I see it.Â

Free Company Cliques - I'm talking about Free Companies that roleplay in the house and barely do anything else and it almost always ends up being with other Free Company members. It starts off great, but then it just gets stale fast. Bubbling is awful for character development and seriously, you have the entire of Eorzea in your hands with all sorts of things going on and you want to hide in your house and do heavy roleplay in the spa? That's just sad.

Hugboxing Edvyn this name is perfect thank you - I usually don't say these kind of things, but Free Companies with the whole *wow gib evry1 hugz <3333* makes me want to stab them with a rusty spoon. It seriously angers me more than anything else in the world. No it's not kawaii as fuck it's ridiculously irksome. Stop it. I can tolerate almost anything, just not THAT.Â

"We're only roleplayers" Free Companies - I want to be able to do content non-solo and be able to roleplay when I'm not doing PvE/PvP with others. "Just RP" Free Companies is a massive nope for me. If you just want to be roleplay group with no in-game content running, make a linkshell. Some people actually want to enjoy the actual game with people and I am one of those people. I'm getting awfully tired of playing the game on my own and I really want to play with other people! This doesn't include "Primary Roleplayers" since from what I've seen those companies actually do help each other out with PvE stuff (sometimes PvP?).

Lack of story - Personal stories is one thing, Free Company story is another. I want to be in a company that has something going on the entire time. Not literally "I WANNA SEE EVENTS EVERY SECOND OR I'M OUT" but rather there is a story arc happening to the Free Company an I can see that happening. If I can't see it or it seems rather limiting to certain snowflakes then I'm out. No thank you.Â

...I'm so picky.

Madda · **03-13-2015, 12:51 AM**

Madda doesn't really see the deal with applications on enjin or whatever. Although Enjin or [ insert guild site host here ] sucks, it's still a good way to give guild members information that you couldn't do in game Â at all.Â

On topic, Madda hates the random invites. There's a particular FC on Balmung that Madda has gotten 24 (Madda counted) invites in 3 days. Each with no words, no welcome message, nothing. Madda won't say a name, but they know who they are.Â

Madda also doesn't like it when people tell Mada to stop saying Madda all the time.

Verad · **03-13-2015, 12:56 AM**

Because when it doesn't work, the results can be disastrous, not just in terms of causing members to have a bad experience, but in providing an easy venue for predatory OOC behavior. As you yourself said - competently portraying IC leadership doesn't guarantee competency as an OOC leader.

Anyway, Kiht asked for some possibilities. First, I think keeping the FC pretty small helps a great deal. Rotating IC leadership positions also allow players to be involved with running things on an OOC basis. Limiting what authority the OOC leader has over IC play helps a great deal as well. Some of this we frankly already do on an ad hocÂ basis - FCs will have situations where a character is in trouble for IC behavior, but this doesn't translate to OOC removal or sanction - but outlining clear guidelines in terms of what the OOC leader can and cannot do helps remove a lot of ambiguity, allowing the OOC leader to act less like a leader and more like a manager of the FC as an organization.

And, in FF14 at least, I think a number of RP roles don't actually requireÂ an FC. I think it's somewhat frustrating to say this, because on the one hand the game has provided us a means by which we can have the organization of an FC without the leadership roles in the form of Linkshells, but has also given RPers an incentive to form FCs in the form of player housing and private rooms.

Verad · **03-13-2015, 12:56 AM**

(03-13-2015, 12:51 AM)Madda Wrote: Madda also doesn't like it when people tell Mada to stop saying Madda all the time.

Does it make you . . . madda?

*Sees himself out.*

Klynzahr · **03-13-2015, 01:19 AM**

(03-12-2015, 11:46 PM)Kou Wrote: Some people are power-hungry megalomaniacs that need a good clonk on the head. Note: This isn't an attack on anyone, simply a statement designed entirely for humourous purposes.

I had to laugh at this, because it is both sad and true.

That being said, some of the best FC/ Guilds that I have had the pleasure to be a part of or interact with were run IC and OOC by the same leader. In each case the player and their primary character shared good leadership qualities and sought to actively include and promote their members before themselves. In my opinion it all comes down to the individual leader (and weather or not they have the first clue about how to actually lead).

Now for the question.

1) A Guild Concept Based Around the Leader's Character: While I won't automatically disregard an FC because the OOC leader also leads IC, I will definitely run the other way at the first sign the company revolves around him/ her.

2) An Over-scripted Plot Line: I hate finding my character in a position, where they continue to attend event after event but their actions have no discernible impact and their voice is never heard. If I make an event suggestion and am whispered "I'm sorry that isn't in the plotline" or worse, when my character reacts in a certain way and I am told "That isn't what we had planned, please try to follow the storyline" it kills the RP experience for me. Sadly I don't generally realize this trend until after I've joined a group.

3) No IC Interview: This tells me right away that there will be little RP quality control in the guild. I think the interview is important to get a feel for the new member and ascertain at minimum that they are not disrespectful, wildly lore-breaky, or solely there for ERP.
Â
4) No FC website: I realize that this may be a big turn off for some, but I really love writing and having an online space to post stories, thoughts and journals is important to me. I would never insist that everyone use it but I do like to have the medium available.
Â
5) No Effort Made to Engage the Rest of the Community: When the FC Rp solely with itself, things are bound to grow stale. This isn't always a deal breaker, as long as I am permitted to RP outside on my own, but it is definitely something that I look for actively.

6) Too Big: This is purely personal preference but I prefer a smaller and closer group, with plenty of community outreach. I like to get to know the other members well both IC and OOC, but find it impossible in a very large group.

There are a few other things that turn me off from a free company but I will tolerate if needed. For example if the FC lacks a running storyline but has obliging officers, I can always help it get going. Cliques are another annoyance that I put up with, mainly by reaching out to others and working consciously to open things up. I don't consider these to be deal breakers, because they can often be changed or worked around.

Flashhelix · **03-13-2015, 02:29 AM**

focus on the officers in RP events over everybody else

lack of quality control

leaders afraid to discipline people

copious edge

no adherence to lore

Tiergan · **03-13-2015, 04:13 AM**

1) Leaders mixing IC and OOC. ( I had some of the most creepy and bizarre experiences with this one in WoW.)

2) Don't mind FCs where the IC leader and OOC leader are one in the same, but only if the rest of the entire FC storyline doesn't really revolve entirely around said leader or hinge upon the leader's presence to continue functioning. (AKA, no 'House' RP.)

3) RP/Storyline bottleneck with FC Leadership. If EVERYTHING has to get vetted and ok'd by the leadership before you can run a story or do something RP wise, even if it has nothing to do with the FC story itself - I'm out.

Kiht'to Moui · **03-13-2015, 04:41 AM**

Lack of RP is usually what sends me running, next to an absentee GM. If I had a penny for every gil wasted on a FC that seemed eager but 'fizzled' out, I could retire crazy early. So basically, wasted time and effort to get a 'meh' when you try to start RP, that sends me packing.

Knight Kat · **03-13-2015, 04:51 AM**

(03-12-2015, 11:14 PM)Maia Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 09:31 PM)Knight Kat Wrote: So, this following question is not only aimed at Verad, but anyone who also shares this opinion. I ask because this legitimately concerns me.

How does one truly run an FC where the OOC leader's character is not the IC leader? Or, where the IC leading character has no OOC authority?

Maybe I misunderstood here, but I am thinking about this, and I can't see an answer. For example, if I am an OOC leader, and Kiht is not IC leader, I will still have to closely coordinate and manage with whoever is the IC leader. This will give the person who plays the IC leader a sort of position of authority on an OOC level as well. How can the two be separated in a way that make the FC still function?

How my FC is currently run is Kiht and Khloe co-lead the FC together. But we are also co-leaders on an OOC level. In the instance we ever dead-lock on a decision, we would bring in a senior member as a tie-breaker, or call for an FC vote.

It has worked well so far, but the FC is just over two months old, and still small.

I had the same wonder/concern, Kiht, but after I reviewed it with others, I think the idea being presented is more an aversion to the "egocult" that stems from one person having too much IC + OoC power. But Verad also mentioned that while this is a tendency he's seen often, it isn't universally true. There're just some bad eggs out there who have made an unfortunate stereotype of running things both IC and OoC for their own benefit, as opposed to the benefit of the Guild.

But I feel that in our instance, (assuming that we are similar?) we utilize the IC authority as a vehicle to bring power and entertainment to everyone else, as opposed to relegating others to the status of NPC while your character is clearly the Main Hero.

I use Maia to conduct and run one RP event per week, to post IC information and bulletins on our bulletin board, to delegate tasks to others via personalized IC Moogle Mail, and to coordinate and run our monthly public event. It's a lot of OoC work, and I can't imagine another person in the LS taking up the mantle and doing all of that over a concept that isn't even their own, haha. Sometimes it even feels like she's just "leader NPC" rather than an actual character, just because I use her to instigate interesting things for others more than explore her personal whatever. On top of that, she was initially elected quite unwittingly and without any prompting from me OoCly or ICly - I was oddly surprised at the time.

I could be totally off the mark, but that's what I've come to understand after some thought and discussion on my end of things.

Our situations are so similar that they are nearly identical.

In my FC, Kiht is really Matron NPC 90% of the time. I use her to push things along, and make RP happen. I've been doing this nearly a year, so while I still consider myself new, I have to say being an FC leader is a lot of work OOC and IC.

The only satisfaction I get from it is helping to create RP. I get tired of watching plots and stories just crumble or stagnate. Kiht gets a lot more spotlight and development outside of my FC's plots and RP. So, if I didn't care about my FC and the people in it so much, I wouldn't be doing this.

===============================================================

On the topic at hand, I would say the two things I wouldn't like in an FC are:

1: Isolationist RP. If they spend almost all their time in some house, and rarely interact with the community or other groups, I strongly disapprove. The community needs more interconnection.

I'm constantly seeing things like Ishgard characters OOCly looking for other Ishgard characters that they can't seem to find. Really? I know of way too many Ishgard characters now. How can you not find each other?!

2: RP that is too casual all the time. I understand that tavern and tea-time RP has an important place, and I do enjoy it. However, I play FF14 for the -adventure-. The main group talked about so much in this game are "Adventurers". Why are there not that many adventure plots?

I crave this like a madly starved person. An FC that doesn't do it would have to RP out a funeral for Kiht since she would die of boredom. There is a reason I made her a scout.

Cato · **03-13-2015, 07:18 AM**

Quote:I'm constantly seeing things like Ishgard characters OOCly looking for other Ishgard characters that they can't seem to find. Really? I know of way too many Ishgard characters now. How can you not find each other?!

I'd put that down to the habit of many role-players in this community claiming to be open to networking but then never following through with it. I'd be very rich if I had a penny for every time I saw someone post here that they're looking for a specific type of role-play and someone else would then post in response and highlight how friendly and open to new contacts they are.Â

Yet they would then go on to give the poster seeking contacts the cold shoulder in-game or turn out to be unreliable/have no interest in actually stepping out of their established social circle and instanced areas long enough to establish fresh connections.

Then, of course, there's more legitimate reasons such as real life getting in the way or operating on a conflicting schedule.

Y'lani · **04-04-2015, 05:35 PM**

(03-13-2015, 07:18 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: Then, of course, there's more legitimate reasons such as real life getting in the way or operating on a conflicting schedule.

I'll personally admit to having this happen to me a lot. It's something I often mull over and try not to feel guilty about; I'll post on a Making Connections post only to see that they're never on when I'm on (ex: later at the American night) and I just can't keep up with the EU crowd and that crowd without pulling my hair out from a terrible lack of sleep.

Not to derail the thread, but: do you feel like a "sorry" message is necessary in such a situation? Or is it better to let the other player assume?

Hope this isn't too much of a necro. I'm still interested in what people have to say in this thread. ^^

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What scares you away from a FC/Guild?

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