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Zhavi · **03-23-2015, 01:01 AM**

(03-20-2015, 04:07 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(03-20-2015, 03:51 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I think what makes a good villain is what also makes a good hero - well roundedness. A Villian should be just as fleshed out as a hero would be, having motivations behind what they do beyond "I am evil".

That's it, really.

Even Hedonistic Villains can fall into under umbrella, provided they are fleshed out well enough. There are plenty of very good Hedonistic Villains in fiction and as long as they aren't pressuring or harassing me for ERP, they can be a hedonistic as they like.

The problem is, as Verad says. Many villains aren't logical or have good motivations. That's part of what makes villains scary. They don't play by the same rules as 'normal' people.

I think many villains do have good reasons for why they're doing what they're doing. However I don't think it's a prerequisite.

Why not? Some of the most villainous people in our history were very logical in their thinking and to them and those who followed them had perfectly good motivations.

To some people in the world, your country/culture is villainous (and no, I don't necessarily mean the most obvious example for us western folks). It can be a matter of cultural or historical reasoning, or religious or personal. Just because they aren't necessarily good motivations to you doesn't make that a universal truth. There's all sorts of people and perceptions in the world, and that counts for fictional worlds too.

Verad · **03-23-2015, 01:13 AM**

(03-23-2015, 01:01 AM)Zhavi Wrote:
(03-20-2015, 04:07 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(03-20-2015, 03:51 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I think what makes a good villain is what also makes a good hero - well roundedness. A Villian should be just as fleshed out as a hero would be, having motivations behind what they do beyond "I am evil".

That's it, really.

Even Hedonistic Villains can fall into under umbrella, provided they are fleshed out well enough. There are plenty of very good Hedonistic Villains in fiction and as long as they aren't pressuring or harassing me for ERP, they can be a hedonistic as they like.

The problem is, as Verad says. Many villains aren't logical or have good motivations. That's part of what makes villains scary. They don't play by the same rules as 'normal' people.

I think many villains do have good reasons for why they're doing what they're doing. However I don't think it's a prerequisite.

Why not? Â Some of the most villainous people in our history were very logical in their thinking and to them and those who followed them had perfectly good motivations.

To some people in the world, your country/culture is villainous (and no, I don't necessarily mean the most obvious example for us western folks). Â It can be a matter of cultural or historical reasoning, or religious or personal. Â Just because they aren't necessarily good motivations to you doesn't make that a universal truth. Â There's all sorts of people and perceptions in the world, and that counts for fictional worlds too.

Subjectivity is all well and good, but the point is more that for every logical and methodical villain with motivations that make perfect sense from their perspective if you look at it from that, there are as many who are illogical, irrational, or intentionally lacking in understandable motivation.

One isn't better than the other. But both exist.

Zhavi · **03-23-2015, 01:21 AM**

(03-23-2015, 01:13 AM)Verad Wrote:
(03-23-2015, 01:01 AM)Zhavi Wrote:
(03-20-2015, 04:07 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(03-20-2015, 03:51 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I think what makes a good villain is what also makes a good hero - well roundedness. A Villian should be just as fleshed out as a hero would be, having motivations behind what they do beyond "I am evil".

That's it, really.

Even Hedonistic Villains can fall into under umbrella, provided they are fleshed out well enough. There are plenty of very good Hedonistic Villains in fiction and as long as they aren't pressuring or harassing me for ERP, they can be a hedonistic as they like.

The problem is, as Verad says. Many villains aren't logical or have good motivations. That's part of what makes villains scary. They don't play by the same rules as 'normal' people.

I think many villains do have good reasons for why they're doing what they're doing. However I don't think it's a prerequisite.

Why not? Â Some of the most villainous people in our history were very logical in their thinking and to them and those who followed them had perfectly good motivations.

To some people in the world, your country/culture is villainous (and no, I don't necessarily mean the most obvious example for us western folks). Â It can be a matter of cultural or historical reasoning, or religious or personal. Â Just because they aren't necessarily good motivations to you doesn't make that a universal truth. Â There's all sorts of people and perceptions in the world, and that counts for fictional worlds too.

Subjectivity is all well and good, but the point is more that for every logical and methodical villain with motivations that make perfect sense from their perspective if you look at it from that, there are as many who are illogical, irrational, or intentionally lacking in understandable motivation.

One isn't better than the other. But both exist.

Meh, it's my opinion that a vast majority of people tend to make sense, even if purely to themselves, over those who don't (which is why psychology took off the way it did and why good marketing pays off). I guess that's because it's my opinion that 99 times out of 100, characters built who are illogical, irrational or intentionally lacking in understandable motivation are sloppily made, with the onus of that burden being not on the villain, but the creator of the villain.

....but I did totally misread the post I quoted.

....because I'm awesome like that.

....and I think I'm arguing with smoke because I'm not really disagreeing with you, but it's a lame attempt to save imaginary face.

C'kayah Polaali · **03-23-2015, 01:19 PM**

(03-23-2015, 01:21 AM)Zhavi Wrote: Meh, it's my opinion that a vast majority of people tend to make sense, even if purely to themselves, over those who don't (which is why psychology took off the way it did and why good marketing pays off). I guess that's because it's my opinion that 99 times out of 100, characters built who are illogical, irrational or intentionally lacking in understandable motivation are sloppily made, with the onus of that burden being not on the villain, but the creator of the villain.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. A villain doesn't have to make sense to other people, but if they don't make sense to themselves, it's a sign that either the character is batfuck insane (and there's room for that, don't get me wrong) or the character isn't well done.

Manson made sense to himself.
Fromme made sense to herself.
Gotti made sense to himself.
Hitler made sense to himself.

Honestly, if your villain isn't supposed to be just purely loony bin crazy, they should make sense to themselves, too.

Aaron · **03-23-2015, 08:22 PM**

I disagree that villians cant be relatable. I cop it up to three types of villians.Â

Evil Evil - Villians who do evil things because why the hell not? Take Kefka for example, nothing relatable about his goals at ALL. But that's not why he's a good villian. Yes a good villian because when you see what he does you hate him so much you get happy when you finally take down the guy. He draws appeal to people because he is the perfect button pusher. The guy poisoned a entire water supply cause he felt like it.

Wrongly evil - Villians who have a genuine cause to do what they do, but go about it "wrong" to say. Take say, Garlean for example. They WANT to stop primals from killing everything and being summoned. They WANT to bring Eorzea into a technical age and stop any magic catastrophe BUT they are going about it completely the wrong way. With these villians you can understand the Garlean have a noble cause, but the way they're doing it makes them evil and hated. But you KNOW they just want to do the same thing Eorzea does, stop primals and unite everyone.Â

Turned evil - These are my favorite, these villians weren't always villians, but do to events out of their control and manipulation. Â They become tragic villians and must be put down. Sephiroth is a prime example. In Crisis Core he was a great guy and a hero. Everyone liked him. But because of outside aspects *cough* Genesis jealous ass* he was manipulated and would ultimately become a villian. If it wasn't for genesis SEPHIROTH would have probably never did anything wrong.Â

I think a lot of villians can be relatable, but also some just can't. Not every villians a bad guy for no reason.Â

This was mainly to add to a post I saw earlier in this thread. Im done ranting now lol

Poll: Do you have a character(s) who are Villains/Evil? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Yes.	67.39%	31	67.39%
No.	32.61%	15	32.61%
Total		46 vote(s)	100%

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The Tropes of Playing a Villain in FFXIV

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