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Edgar · **03-28-2015, 08:12 PM**

(03-28-2015, 03:40 AM)Ryoko Wrote: It honestly amazes me that despite the staggering amount of research that goes in to FFXIV (and WoW, too) the devs know so very little about medieval armor. FFXIV does a bit better than most, but they still show off their ignorance from time to time. For example, conventional game knowledge is that plate armor is extremely heavy. I could almost certainly see them justifying the video by saying "Well, he'd have to be quite strong to move like that!". But if we look at late-period plate armor, it barely weighs anything at all, while providing even more flexibility than what the guy from the video was wearing. Personally, I think this completely invalidates the idea that magic users can't wear armor. They'd have zero reason not to at least wear a cuirass and helmet.

Okay, I've seen this complaint too many times to let it fester any longer, but the subject itself would have derailed the thread in which this post by Ryoko was made, so, here it is in its own thread. Excuse me for a moment while I get on my soapbox...

[Image: soapbox.gif]

There we go. Ahem.

The first thing that comes to my mind in regards to justifying this, right off the bat, is good old Dungeons and Dragons. In DND, from which Final Fantasy draws about 70-90% of its main assets, concepts, rules, and overall inspiration, traditional Mage classes are bound by the light-no armor rule for a very specific reason: Magical interference. It is stated in the rulebooks that use of heavier armor will call for dice rolls that determine spell failure if worn while casting spells. For Mages, the more extreme the armor, the harder it is for them to focus a spell and properly cast it. Therefore, Mages and light armor go hand in hand.

But clearly, DND had to take inspiration from somewhere else, and they did, and this is the better argument, right here. Even before the days of DND, it was a fantasy trope, hell, a trend, even, of storytelling that Mages are typically robe-wearers and the like. My favorite example is Odin. Of all the people you'd expect to be wearing brilliant gilded platemail, Odin was often times shown as a Gandalf-esque old man in robes. I think this was kind of a trendsetter, implying that the people who wielded God-like powers (such as conjuring lightning or such) were humble looking, and that just doesn't fit the heavy armor archetype. As we go on, we see Witches wearing rags and Warlocks are decked in cloaks. Spells and light armor/clothing just go hand in hand.

These are traditions that have been going on for centuries we're talking, here, from fables to novels to board games to video games. It's embedded in our culture. Does that mean breaking the mold every now and then is a bad thing? No, it doesn't. But talking FFXIV, the GIANT equipment overhaul that would have to take place just to please a select few individuals such as yourself who want a change of pace and play a Black Mage in a set of full Mythril is not, I repeat, NOT worth it.

And having explained the history of Mage equipment to you, in the most brief way possible, I think I really dislike this suggestion of ignorance on Square's part, because on close inspection, you see that they did in fact do their homework on this one, in that they noted the trend in Mage designs and the favoritism towards light armor, and with their lack of a Battlemage-esque class/job in mind for the game (aka the kind of people you EXPECT to wear armor and sling spells), as well as keeping in mind their OWN tropes, tropes that FF fans have supported for years, made the appropriate decisions.Â

And that's weird, because I arrive at this conclusion on a lot of issues, with a few exceptions for some truly stupendous lapses in thought. It always seems that we focus so heavily on "Oh, it's this trend again" that we forget to take into consideration that, yes, it isÂ this trend again, because that trend happens to be what the people want, and the game industry, at least the honest part of it with some slab of integrity, is centered around giving the fans what they want so they can make money so they can continue to make games or improve upon existing ones. It's a mutual relationship in the best cases, like the one we have with the team behind A Realm Reborn.

Mages in light armor is a familiar trend that helps rope people into the Fantasy experience. It's part of a largely unwritten and not always, but often followed, set of rules for designing a believable, but fantastic setting. It is bad for a game company to break these rules? No, and if they are successful as a result, well, more power to them. You do what works. But at the same time, I'm not going to fault the others who do follow the rules, because, again, you do what works. So long as they also have just a little more to offer that so happens to make their experience more enjoyable, and doesn't focus so much on these core aspects or trends to the point of redundancy. Sex-appeal MMOs, I'm LOOKING AT YOU.

*Pant...Pant...*

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox, now. I hope I've made some sort of point, here. Please, discuss.

Naunet · **03-29-2015, 01:51 AM**

(03-28-2015, 08:12 PM)Edgar Wrote: the GIANT equipment overhaul that would have to take place

Wat.

FreelanceWizard · **03-29-2015, 02:14 AM**

(03-28-2015, 08:12 PM)Edgar Wrote: In DND, from which Final Fantasy draws about 70-90% of its main assets, concepts, rules, and overall inspiration, traditional Mage classes are bound by the light-no armor rule for a very specific reason: Magical interference. It is stated in the rulebooks that use of heavier armor will call for dice rolls that determine spell failure if worn while casting spells. For Mages, the more extreme the armor, the harder it is for them to focus a spell and properly cast it. Therefore, Mages and light armor go hand in hand.

Incoming nitpick. Smile

You're correct that, in 2e and earlier, that's why you had arcane spell failure. However, D&D 3, 4, and 5 (and Pathfinder) all take the position that heavier armors interfere with the fine gestures required for casting, which is why the arcane spell failure chance only applies to spells with a somatic component, why some classes don't suffer it for certain armor types, why you can Still Spell to ignore it, and why you can feat your way out of it.

With that said, though, I've personally never had any problem with the "casters can't wear heavy armor" logic; it's an old school FF trope going back to FF1. Who knows why that's the case in FF? It just is. Smile

I've personally gone with the aetheric interference approach in my RP, but I think DRK might blow that out of the water depending on its lore. We'll just have to see, I suppose.

Marisa · **03-29-2015, 02:57 AM**

Yay! I'm being noticed! Â
I understand the Final Fantasy purist perspective, so I'll preface this by saying on some level I realize why SE does what it does. Â

That being said, I'd like to mention something about your Odin/Gandalf example. Now here we have two men who are so far beyond everyone else, they don't even really do battle. Odin doesn't do combat with you, he simply smites you and is done with it. He has no reason to fear the swords and arrows of man because those are things of no significance to him. Â

A white mage is not Odin. Even the most powerful White Mage in the world will still die if he takes an arrow to the face. If Odin could have been killed by sword wounds, you bet your ass he would have worn a full set of armor. It's one thing if you're just a travelling healer, but we know that white mages (or, for XIV's sake, conjurers) go to war. At the battle of Cartenau, we see healers and wizards right in the middle of the fray. Spears, arrows, fireballs, and bullets are flying everywhere Literally everyone else is wearing chainmail and helmets, except this handful of poor bastards being forced to wade into this sea of death wearing robes and cloth hoods. Even the archers get a little bit of armor, but the medics who are right up on the front lines? Nope, fuck those guys. Â

I mean shit, the Garleans are supposed to place almost no value on the lives of their conscripts, yet even they give their healers helmets. The Garleans understand that no amount of connection with nature or aether is going to protect your face from shrapnel. So yes, if the Garleans understand it, then by extension the Devs must understand it. So now the question becomes, what the hell is wrong with Eorzeans?

This is actually one of my 3 favorite things to rant about in FFXIV, so I'm pretty excited about this thread!

Edgar · **03-29-2015, 03:52 PM**

(03-29-2015, 02:57 AM)Ryoko Wrote: I mean shit, the Garleans are supposed to place almost no value on the lives of their conscripts, yet even they give their healers helmets. The Garleans understand that no amount of connection with nature or aether is going to protect your face from shrapnel. So yes, if the Garleans understand it, then by extension the Devs must understand it. So now the question becomes, what the hell is wrong with Eorzeans?

My theory, here, is that from a Lore perspective it's to show that Eorzeans are more specialized, from their equipment to their skill lists, whereas Garlemald is a military, and as such, much is left to "standard issue". I don't think anything seems wrong with the Eorzeans, it's more the Garleans who have a serious problem.Â The Garlean infantry wears the same uniform for the majority of its roles. Even the guys with axes are wearing the same clothes as the "mages", and if it is true that there is some animosity towards the mooks in the Garlean war machine, I doubt its really the best armor ever, especially compared to Centurions and the many Magitek automatons. In fact, the Eorzeans seem better equipped to deal with threats in spite of an apparent loathing of helmets. Holy fuck, have you seen what that Black Mage does to a Reaper with one Fire III in the Battle of Carteneau? He blows it the fuck up and kills everyone around it. One shot, dead. So many, just, dead!Â

Another theory is that since Garleans use Magitek, not true magic, they're free to wear whatever they want. This is quite speculative, though.

The last theory, from a design perspective, is that it's so we can tell these guys are a bunch of conscripts, whereas we're the "humans". We're Eorzea! We're unique! The bad guys have no faces under those helms! It's a bad trope of dehumanizing the enemy so we can hate them more easily that's been oft repeated throughout various mediums, and I will admit I'm tiring of it, at least when it's not done to any great effect (I preferred it on Darth Vader more than I preferred it on the entire Imperial Infantry, for example).

Now then, I wanna talk Clerics,Â because it's the very thing that'd scratch your Mages-in-armor itch. Here's a typical Cleric, right here.

Kinda kickass, right? Notice the orientation of gear towards a fully offensive stance, the use of a blunt weapon, and the total lack of fucks to give. So why don't we have these in the game? It's really a combination of the Devs wanting to stick to the tried and true Jobs of FF that were the most easily recognizable for players to choose from, and that giving Cleric Stance to WHMs and SCHs (and thus making them damage dealers as well as Healers, which is basically what a Cleric IS) kind of made the point of a true Cleric class/job in the game a moot one. Why spend all that time developing a Healer/Hinder dedicated class and all the gear, quests, etc. that goes along with it when Cleric Stance does the same thing while also adding a bit of micromanagement to the primary healing classes? You don't. That's silly.

Compounding the issue further, Paladins and Clerics are like two sides of the same coin. In FF, the Paladin class can learn healing magic, and has a high hp score and defensive abilities (Just look at Cecil in FFIV and you'll know what I mean). These aspects influenced the design of the GLD/PLD in FFXIV and are still apparent to this day. The Dev team would have to go to some extreme lengths to differentiate the Cleric from the Paladin, and that might eventually go so far that the term Cleric no longer applies. Is it possible to do? Yes. Would it be time-consuming and difficult? Yes, and when combined with the stretching of its original identity, that's probably why RED and BLU have barely made it past the idea phase for FFXIV as potential jobs. Being creative and staying true to the source material is a major problem.

Kellach Woods · **03-29-2015, 04:05 PM**

(03-29-2015, 02:57 AM)Ryoko Wrote: I mean shit, the Garleans are supposed to place almost no value on the lives of their conscripts, yet even they give their healers helmets. The Garleans understand that no amount of connection with nature or aether is going to protect your face from shrapnel. So yes, if the Garleans understand it, then by extension the Devs must understand it. So now the question becomes, what the hell is wrong with Eorzeans?

Ahem. If you want to complain about armor...

HERE IS YOUR TYPICAL MARAUDER :

[Image: Ffxivrebornyellowjacketinfantryman.jpg]

Aduu Avagnar · **03-29-2015, 04:11 PM**

your point about tropes is a valid one, but I point to DRK, PLD and RDM one of which isn't mentioned at all in eorzea, but it a series staple. All three of these can wear armour, yet cast magic, DRK being offensive, PLD being restorative, and RDM being a bit of both but in typically lighter armour.

where do these fit into your mages cant wear armour theory? (I am aware you brought up paladins before hand, but the point stands.)

C'kayah Polaali · **03-29-2015, 04:18 PM**

It frankly doesn't bother me one whit. Not for historical reasons, nor for "It seems as if" reasons, but for game design reasons.

Mages in MMOs are powerful. They have very strong ranged damage dealing (hello Black Mage!) or healing powers that allows them to play with devastating effect. Tanks, on the other hand, largely focus on being able to soak damage, and their use of heavy armor with it's powerful damage mitigation compliments this. For the same reason that White Mages have crap damage dealing abilities (to avoid the "I can do it all, hahahaha!" syndrome), mages in this game (and most MMOs) are limited in the armor they can use. High damage/heals at range? That's powerful. Counter it by making them fragile? That balances them against the other classes. If your Black Mage could wear Dragoon's armor and do Dragoon-levels of damage from anywhere on the map without worrying about positioning or being hit by the AOEs around a monster, why would anyone play a Dragoon? If a White Mage could clank around in Paladin's armor and simply keep aggro with their massive self-heal while letting the damage mitigation of the armor keep the incoming damage low enough to let them live, why would anyone play a Paladin or Warrior?

That's why RPGs and MMOs handwave odd restrictions like this. Not because they think that's the way it actually would be, but because they have to balance the game so that it's fun for everyone. The current setup, while not perfect, provides a solid mechanic that relies on well-balanced parties with well-balanced roles in order to succeed at the tougher content.

Seriphyn · **03-29-2015, 04:22 PM**

(03-29-2015, 04:05 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(03-29-2015, 02:57 AM)Ryoko Wrote: I mean shit, the Garleans are supposed to place almost no value on the lives of their conscripts, yet even they give their healers helmets. The Garleans understand that no amount of connection with nature or aether is going to protect your face from shrapnel. So yes, if the Garleans understand it, then by extension the Devs must understand it. So now the question becomes, what the hell is wrong with Eorzeans?

Ahem. If you want to complain about armor...

HERE IS YOUR TYPICAL MARAUDER :

Rank-and-file infantry weren't known to be donned up in heavy armour, only knights and cavalry etc. Too expensive. Now, Brass Blades and Stone Torches too, probably because they have a lot of gil behind their owners.

Aduu Avagnar · **03-29-2015, 04:24 PM**

the biggest offset in the FF games, is the level of magic being able to be cast in armour. To say flat out that mages can't wear heavy armour is a false dichotomy. I feel that they would be restricted to their more basic spells, as we see with a Paladin, or soon to be Dark Knight.

The level of spell cast is inversely proportionate to the ammount of armour worn.

Edgar · **03-29-2015, 04:29 PM**

(03-29-2015, 04:11 PM)Nako Wrote: your point about tropes is a valid one, but I point to DRK, PLD and RDM one of which isn't mentioned at all in eorzea, but it a series staple. All three of these can wear armour, yet cast magic, DRK being offensive, PLD being restorative, and RDM being a bit of both but in typically lighter armour.

where do these fit into your mages cant wear armour theory?

First, RDM is not confirmed for FFXIV at this time. They're not terribly relevant, at least in context to this and your post.

Second, PLD can cast basic conjuration magic through cross-class skills, but I stated this, already: PLDs in the past have had the ability to cast simple White Magic. This is just a nod to established trends regarding the class in the series' history. Might I add that it's a grand total of 4 skills we're talking about, here? Ones that other classes can also use? If the ability to cast either Cure or Physick were enough to qualify a Job as a mage, every single job would be a Healer on the side.

Finally, DRK has barely been fleshed out in the time before the expansion's release, we know about as much about it as we do the Astrologian and Machinist. Saying "Oh yeah, they use magic!" is a big assumption, because although we know they use Darkness, we don't know how they go about it. Whether it even qualifies as a Magic is speculative, at best.Â (Unless you have canon material for me stating it is magic, outright, in which case, point the way!)

C'kayah Polaali Wrote:His entire post.

Give this man a cookie.

Aduu Avagnar · **03-29-2015, 04:36 PM**

(03-29-2015, 04:29 PM)Edgar Wrote:
(03-29-2015, 04:11 PM)Nako Wrote: your point about tropes is a valid one, but I point to DRK, PLD and RDM one of which isn't mentioned at all in eorzea, but it a series staple. All three of these can wear armour, yet cast magic, DRK being offensive, PLD being restorative, and RDM being a bit of both but in typically lighter armour.

where do these fit into your mages cant wear armour theory?
Second, PLD can cast basic conjuration magic through cross-class skills, but I stated this, already: PLDs in the past have had the ability to cast simple White Magic. This is just a nod to established trends regarding the class in the series' history. Might I add that it's a grand total of 4 skills we're talking about, here? Ones that other classes can also use? If the ability to cast either Cure or Physick were enough to qualify a Job as a mage, every single job would be a Healer on the side.

ok, in which case everything in this game is a nod to established trends in the series and should be disregarded.

It is established, in lore, that there are sultanswon (Read: Paladin) who can cast restorative magics, whilst in armour. They are there, a fixture within the game world. Not just a nod. And given the argument is casting magic whilst in armour, or at least that is where I saw this going, then it is established, that there are those that can do it. So to disregard that is folly.

(Also, the only Jobs that can utilise healing magics are SMN, SCH, WHM, BLM and PLD.... so no, not every job would be a healer on the side.)

Also, RDM is relevant to our discussion. You were the one that brought up series staples and tropes. Yet here is a series staple that doesn't follow the established trope, regardless of if it was confirmed for the game or not. It isn't outside of the realm of possibility, especially as it has existed in MMO form before.

Sounsyy · **03-29-2015, 04:51 PM**

(03-29-2015, 04:18 PM)Ckayah Polaali Wrote: High damage/heals at range? That's powerful. Counter it by making them fragile? That balances them against the other classes. If your Black Mage could wear Dragoon's armor and do Dragoon-levels of damage from anywhere on the map without worrying about positioning or being hit by the AOEs around a monster, why would anyone play a Dragoon? If a White Mage could clank around in Paladin's armor and simply keep aggro with their massive self-heal while letting the damage mitigation of the armor keep the incoming damage low enough to let them live, why would anyone play a Paladin or Warrior?

So... interesting point I wanted to make on this. Way back in the dawn of 1.0... gear restrictions did not exist at all. Nor did cross-class restrictions for that matter. And what C'kayah brought up was absolutely the result. Ranged mages... (particularly THM) with tank armor and various tank cross-class abilities were absolutely 100% invincible and overpowered.

A good friend of mine mained THM, cross classed a bunch of GLD skills, wore a mix of tank armor and mage accessories, and was able to easily solo every Faction leve and HNM in the game. This was also back in the days when you didn't need to be at level to wear higher level armor, just the gear stats were level synced down to whatever level you were.

The result? While cool... it essentially turned all 8 DoW/M classes into really just one blob amoeba class that really just changed by whatever weapon you chose to use.

Here's my 1.0 LNC and my LNC tanking:
[Image: IvRusWW.jpg]

You also got these plate armor wearing fools:
[Image: Louisoix_NPC_Render.jpg]

So yeah... I don't really have a problem with mages wearing plate. There's nothing in lore saying they can't. Just 2.0 game mechanics and gear restriction. Does it make you kinda OP? Yeah, probably. Maybe consider 1) why your mage wants to wear plate and where would he wear plate? and 2) is your mage type physically fit enough to wear plate/heavy armor full time? Maybe he's like the Sharlayans and just wears gauntlets/sabatons?

Granted, the only people who'd be able to even pull off this look would be 1.0 veterans who kept Dated Gear for "sentimental reasons." <_< >_> /like myself.

Edgar · **03-29-2015, 05:00 PM**

Quote:ok, in which case everything in this game is a nod to established trends in the series and should be disregarded.

It is established, in lore, that there are sultanswon (Read: Paladin) who can cast restorative magics, whilst in armour. They are there, a fixture within the game world. Not just a nod. And given the argument is casting magic whilst in armour, or at least that is where I saw this going, then it is established, that there are those that can do it. So to disregard that is folly.

(Also, the only Jobs that can utilise healing magics are SMN, SCH, WHM, BLM and PLD.... so no, not every job would be a healer on the side.)

Also, RDM is relevant to our discussion. You were the one that brought up series staples and tropes. Yet here is a series staple that doesn't follow the established trope, regardless of if it was confirmed for the game or not. It isn't outside of the realm of possibility, especially as it has existed in MMO form before.

That statement in parenthesis reminds me of why I should be careful when using the words "Job" and "Class" in regards to FFXIV. I should have used Class.

In regards to Red Mage, you're right. I focused too much on the fact that they did not exist in FFXIV for a moment, there, to consider they actually were relevant to the topic of trends. Fuck up on my part.

What isn't wrong, is that you can't call Paladin a Mage in Armor. Its healing abilities, from a mechanics standpoint, aren't even inherent to its normal skillset, and if the need to level CNJ to 15 to unlock the Job weren't there, it wouldn't have any to BEGIN WITH. The point of Paladin is wearing heavy armor and wielding a sword and shield, not a wand, killing things with those implements and protecting the rest of the team from harm.

This is not a Battlemage, where, yes, both have access to magic (one more than the other), and both wear heavy armor, but the Battlemage uses magic and sword in equal parts, whereas the Paladin relies almost entirely on the sword and shield.

Erik Mynhier · **03-29-2015, 05:24 PM**

I think its mostly a matter of mechanics that became a tradition with is still a matter of mechanics.

Can you imagine in our game a dps mage with equal offensive power to a BLM, even a little less offensive, but with tank armor. Why play any other class really. Just a thought, a possible reason.

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Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends

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