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Warren Castille · **04-16-2015, 08:23 AM**

I want to bump this long-dead thread with a GIF of the Ul'dah opening. It's what happens when an Amalj'aa punches a Brass Blade in full armor. It gives some credence to the argument of what happens when a roe/highlander attempts to punt a lalafell.

[Image: 2c91Lm.gif]

And now to get this thread locked ONCE AND FOR ALL. Ring the bell, it's round 2.

MadWater · **04-16-2015, 10:28 AM**

...

Goddammit. I saw this pop up, and I didn't look at the timestamps or anything, just read the first two pages and thought "Huzzah! I have something useful to contribute to this discussion!" and spent a ton of time writing one out.

Since I put in all that effort, I'm gonna post it anyways, even though by this point I won't be contributing shit.

(10-08-2014, 09:45 AM)Kage Wrote: A keen edge however, can only take you so far.

If we're not going with the fact that Lalafell must be able to hold their own physically to continuously keep up with their Hyur and Roegadyn counterparts in the Yellowjackets, the Blades, the Sultansworn... then it means that a -lot- of Lalafell are just able to fight at better standards. Their skill level in terms of combat knowhow and such would have to be, in average, at higher level than their larger counterparts.

We're applying the laws of physics, reasonably so, to a world in which we don't know what the laws are.

I think we can reasonably assume the laws of motion are pretty much the same, so I shall do so.

Lalafells should be able to become stronger per pound than a Roegadyn, because muscle strength comes from the number of fibers you can fit in said muscle. A Roe is not only taller than a Lala, but also wider and thicker. Volume, and therefore mass, is proportional to the cube of height, while muscle cross-sectional area is proportional only to the square of height. Simply stated, the bigger you get, the strength per pound actually decreases significantly.

That being said, I don't think that advantage counts for much. "Damage" is a matter of transferring a lot of energy very quickly to your target. Let's simplify a punch as a brick with the same mass as your fist being thrown at someone. The kinetic energy of that brick varies directly with mass and the square of speed. Looking at my character's wiki and that of Mr. Eorzea himself, Brave weighs 230 ponze and Chachan weighs 47 ponze. Assuming the weight of their respective fist-bricks scales with their total body weight, Chachan would have to punch 2.21 times faster than Brave to deliver the same amount of energy. Keep in mind, his joints would also have to absorb the reaction force of the punch-ee's body back on his fist, wrist, arm, elbow, shoulder, etc. Brave has a lot more meat in her arm to safely dissipate that energy. Also consider things like reach disadvantage.

As far as the presence of Lalafells in armed forces throughout Eorzea, these forces fight in numbers. Even if one of your blades is held by a Lala, 3 vs 2 gives your side a huge advantage.

Gegenji · **04-16-2015, 10:44 AM**

(04-16-2015, 10:28 AM)MadWater Wrote: ...

Goddammit. I saw this pop up, and I didn't look at the timestamps or anything, just read the first two pages and thought "Huzzah! I have something useful to contribute to this discussion!" and spent a ton of time writing one out.

Haha, this thread was old back when I joined. Was surprised to see Warren bumping it up for a gif. Laugh

I've always played reach as one of Chachan's greatest disadvantages in combat. He's short even by Lalafellan standards, so he has a lot of reach to make up for - which is why his fighting style is all springy and rush-oriented. He needs to both evade the superior reach of his opponent and close that gap so that he can actually hit them since he's not using magic or a ranged weapon (though I have had him throw his shield and/or throwing knives on occasion). It's why I can so easily imagine him having all the issues he's had with spear users (even discounting horrible rolls Laugh

).

Also, you only account for punching faster. What if there's just more muscle power behind it? A light jab is quick, but there's not a lot of force behind it. Meanwhile, an uppercut or something takes more time... but has more momentum and force behind it. Not saying Chachan has more brawn than Brave (using your example), but that's still something to consider. Especially since you mentioned a Lalafell being potentially able to have more muscle per ponze due to the square/cube mass point you made.

... Regardless of how strong a Lalafell could potentially be compared to any other race, I'd still find it difficult in either case for, say, a Lalafell to bodily throw a Roe or something just on the basis of difference in dimensions. It's harder to move an awkwardly shaped or larger box than a smaller box even before weight is brought into the equation. A Lala would have to resort to a Mario 64 Bowser Toss, I'd think.

... which I now kinda want to see happen. Possibly to an Au Ra.

Hammersmith · **04-16-2015, 10:51 AM**

I'm going to run under some assumptions here. Â Feel free to ignore them: (hereafter lalas are referred to as Runts)

1) Runts don't have some biological ubermensch adaption that lets them be on the same level or higher than other races
2) Runts don't have some mental advantage that makes them fight better
3) Runts are Baseline, in all ways, with no wild magical infusion that makes them better than anyone else at anything.
4) Accordingly they are limited by their size in terms of what can be mustered, both in impact, inertia, momentum, and what can be reached.

With all of that said: Runts have something going for them. Â Gravity. Â Their center of mass is much closer to the ground than other races. Â Tipping a runt over is going to be a problem. Â Doubly so if you're taller and most of your force is coming from above. Â A Leg sweep for most people is a sweep at the torso for a Runt.

Their main advantage, physically IS their size. Â Being short, squat, and tiny, means they can maneuver, cut, and shank, from angles most races can't operate from, and that are often, defensively speaking, advantageous. Â Runts are going to be harder to budge, harder to topple, and will have a tendency to put an upward thrust directly into your groin instead of say: Your shoulder. Â They have an easier time aiming for other people's large fleshy torso areas, not to mention hamstrings, calves, and nads.

So I posit Runts compensate for strength and size with style. Â Runts probably get a different education in fighting compared to other races. Â They go low, they trip, they harass and harry and apply leverage to topple. Â Knees, back or front, ankles, feet, anything that's not Runt Sized is often LETHAL for everyone else to get a sword, mace, or anything else to. Â You don't need to hit hard to cripple a joint. Â You just have to reach it. Â Guess who's over qualified to do that? Â I suspect the Runt army platoons of Uldah favor curved blades and piercing weapons accordingly. Â Because if you can't get a lot of force behind something you put all that into one focused area and do a lot of hurt with that concentrated smack down instead. Â Same principle between spikes on flails and flanged maces. Â All that momentum on one small point, in simple physics, turns a small swing into a fucking haymaker for wherever it hits.
Which leads to point 2:Â

Most runts come from Ul'Dah which, in turn, means most runt military forces are syndicate and Sultanate funded. Â Which means they ARE well trained. Â Which means they ARE well educated on "Smash this motherfucker". Â I'm not saying that the runts are militarized, but the city is founded by runts who did smash motherfuckers, and held empires based around smashing motherfuckers and, as such: It's safe to assume they've got old traditions of smashing motherfuckers while being runt sized.

They aren't stronger, faster, or meaner, in my eyes. Â They're just used to this being how it is. Â They fight better because that's how the culture produces and forces them to be. Â Because they have decades, centuries, ages, of This is how it is. Physics works against them in a lot of ways, but it also works FOR them since they're used to using it as such.

Runts fight back equally because they realize when you can use their head as a drink rest it means their teeth are about the same height as your balls.

You don't want to push that kind of button.

Also, RE: Punting Runts:

It's amazing and fun for dramatic effect/RP wackyness. If we're talking just Real time "But it totally works like that", go try to punt a 50 lb bag of sand and tell me how that works, because that's how these tiny shithouses are built.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **04-16-2015, 10:54 AM**

(04-16-2015, 10:44 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-16-2015, 10:28 AM)MadWater Wrote: ...

Goddammit. I saw this pop up, and I didn't look at the timestamps or anything, just read the first two pages and thought "Huzzah! I have something useful to contribute to this discussion!" and spent a ton of time writing one out.

Haha, this thread was old back when I joined. Was surprised to see Warren bumping it up for a gif.

I've always played reach as one of Chachan's greatest disadvantages in combat. He's short even by Lalafellan standards, so he has a lot of reach to make up for - which is why his fighting style is all springy and rush-oriented. He needs to both evade the superior reach of his opponent and close that gap so that he can actually hit them since he's not using magic or a ranged weapon (though I have had him throw his shield and/or throwing knives on occasion). It's why I can so easily imagine him having all the issues he's had with spear users (even discounting horrible rolls ).

Also, you only account for punching faster. What if there's just more muscle power behind it? A light jab is quick, but there's not a lot of force behind it. Meanwhile, an uppercut or something takes more time... but has more momentum and force behind it. Not saying Chachan has more brawn than Brave (using your example), but that's still something to consider. Especially since you mentioned a Lalafell being potentially able to have more muscle per ponze due to the square/cube mass point you made.

... Regardless of how strong a Lalafell could potentially be compared to any other race, I'd still find it difficult in either case for, say, a Lalafell to bodily throw a Roe or something just on the basis of difference in dimensions. It's harder to move an awkwardly shaped or larger box than a smaller box even before weight is brought into the equation. A Lala would have to resort to a Mario 64 Bowser Toss, I'd think.

... which I now kinda want to see happen. Possibly to an Au Ra.

See the 1.0 Miner Lalafell Bros cutscene, wherever it is. I'm sure it was linked in here at least once.

Warren Castille · **04-16-2015, 10:56 AM**

(04-16-2015, 10:44 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Haha, this thread was old back when I joined. Was surprised to see Warren bumping it up for a gif.

Commentary on that: Saw the scene again this morning rolling an alt and thought "Hey! This came up before!" Also, I do my best (read: worst) posting first thing in the morning.

Also I figured because this is Argue About Racism And Relative Power Week it'd be a good time to relight the torch.

Gegenji · **04-16-2015, 11:00 AM**

(04-16-2015, 10:54 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: See the 1.0 Miner Lalafell Bros cutscene, wherever it is. I'm sure it was linked in here at least once.

It has, but I'll link it again anyway because it's a hilarious video:

(10-08-2014, 08:58 AM)Adventurer Wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4evYBUCmP...zg&index=2

This is the best piece I believe. It's from 1.0. Skip to around the 9 minutes 50 second mark.

There's little effort shown by the two Lalas while the Hyurs they are dragging are struggling quite a lot.Â

And then the throw right at the end is glorious.

We don't get to see the throw, though. I want to see a Lalafell grab an Au Ra by the tail, spin them around a couple times, and then send them flying from the momentum. Bonus points if they're wearing the Mario-lookalike clothing combination.

Warren Castille · **04-16-2015, 11:02 AM**

(04-16-2015, 11:00 AM)Gegenji Wrote: We don't get to see the throw, though. I want to see a Lalafell grab an Au Ra by the tail, spin them around a couple times, and then send them flying from the momentum. Bonus points if they're wearing the Mario-lookalike clothing combination.

SO LONG GA'E BAU'ZA!

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **04-16-2015, 11:08 AM**

(04-16-2015, 11:00 AM)Gegenji Wrote: We don't get to see the throw, though. I want to see a Lalafell grab an Au Ra by the tail, spin them around a couple times, and then send them flying from the momentum. Bonus points if they're wearing the Mario-lookalike clothing combination.

Tail-pulling sounds like it'd be painful enough as it is. I'm sure the miqo'te players can elaborate.

Gegenji · **04-16-2015, 11:11 AM**

It also should be noted that the points Hammersmith brought up so delightfully eloquently are also kinda shown in the video. The Miner Bros didn't straight-up overpower the two or anything that requires an exorbitant amount of brawn at first. They simply tripped the two Hyur, either by going after the backs of their knees or - as possibly hinted by the bit after - by grabbing their ankles.

The actual strength comes in them so easily dragging the two out and then launching them out the door. The former could be any combination of strength (both of the Lalafell themselves and the difference in strength between them and the panicked Hyur) and a lack of purchase for the victims to try and put up a resistance - I didn't see a lot of handholds there for them to use other than some too-small gaps in the floorboards. As for the latter? As I mentioned, we (regrettably) don't see how they were ejected - just that they were in glorious fashion - but certainly shows a decent amount of strength in this particular pair of Lalafell.

MadWater · **04-16-2015, 11:41 AM**

(04-16-2015, 10:44 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Also, you only account for punching faster. What if there's just more muscle power behind it? A light jab is quick, but there's not a lot of force behind it. Meanwhile, an uppercut or something takes more time... but has more momentum and force behind it. Not saying Chachan has more brawn than Brave (using your example), but that's still something to consider. Especially since you mentioned a Lalafell being potentially able to have more muscle per ponze due to the square/cube mass point you made.

Momentum (p = m*v) and kinetic energy (K = 0.5*m*v^2) are closely related. Both are only functions of mass and speed. Force is the time rate of change of momentum. Even with a larger force, a Lalafell has a shorter arm and therefore shorter swing time. It kind of evens out.

Don't get me wrong, I know how silly it is applying physics to a game. I can let a lot of shit slide for the sake of fun RP. As far as those miners tossing the folks out of the room, I can only assume SE did it for a giggle.

Gegenji · **04-16-2015, 11:45 AM**

(04-16-2015, 11:41 AM)MadWater Wrote: Even with a larger force, a Lalafell has a shorter arm and therefore shorter swing time. It kind of evens out.

Lalafell MNKs - masters of the one-inch punch.

Caspar · **04-16-2015, 12:42 PM**

Ah, my least favorite thread, for obvious reasons. XD
Needless to say, if the realism crowd wants to use the discussion here to ignore how I play, they needn't apply to rp with me, ever.

Warren Castille · **04-16-2015, 12:45 PM**

(04-16-2015, 12:42 PM)Caspar Wrote: Ah, my least favorite thread, for obvious reasons. XD
Needless to say, if the realism crowd wants to use the discussion here to ignore how I play, they needn't apply to rp with me, ever.

Aw, don't be like that! Your character isn't some random lala throwing a punch, there's Dangerous Chakra and the like involved. I was only wondering how it would go sans-aether!

Caspar · **04-16-2015, 12:47 PM**

(04-16-2015, 12:45 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-16-2015, 12:42 PM)Caspar Wrote: Ah, my least favorite thread, for obvious reasons. XD
Needless to say, if the realism crowd wants to use the discussion here to ignore how I play, they needn't apply to rp with me, ever.

Aw, don't be like that! Your character isn't some random lala throwing a punch, there's Dangerous Chakra and the like involved. I was only wondering how it would go sans-aether!

I'm playing a race who couldn't stand according to the laws of physics, and you want me to apply that to their physical blows? lol.

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Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal.

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