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Warren Castille · **08-05-2015, 07:02 PM**

(08-05-2015, 05:55 PM)Momo Wrote: stuff

The concept of the thread (that was likely diluted in the pages of conversation that followed the original post) was asking whether or not there was any in-game lore to support that a lalafell could lift another race over their head and throw them like they were playing Super Mario Brothers 2.

I've got no problem with lalafell winning hand to hand combat, I just ask that they don't suddenly start picking up and throwing someone who outweighs them by orders of magnitude.

McBeefâ„¢ · **08-05-2015, 07:05 PM**

(08-05-2015, 07:02 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I've got no problem with lalafell winning hand to hand combat, I just ask that they don't suddenly start picking up and throwing someone who outweighs them by orders of magnitude.

As long as you ask nicely, they probably won't.

Remember to say 'please'

Warren Castille · **08-05-2015, 07:08 PM**

(08-05-2015, 07:05 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(08-05-2015, 07:02 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I've got no problem with lalafell winning hand to hand combat, I just ask that they don't suddenly start picking up and throwing someone who outweighs them by orders of magnitude.

As long as you ask nicely, they probably won't.

Remember to say 'please'

Not in my vocab!

Also, regarding the Grindstone: We've had housewives with frying pans reach the semi-finals in the past! There's a reason we use the phrase "Every night is anyone's night."

Momo · **08-05-2015, 07:27 PM**

Yes, but as you read at the end, that is simply because you allow anyone who rolls well to win, nothing to do with actual strength or armor and weapons, so basically you are equating a Lalafell's chance of winning hand to hand combat to a woman in a bikini top, skirt, with a garden shovel. Â If it were actual RP, with no roll to support actions, you could never work out with a Lalafell RPer, that your big strong manly character couldn't be overpowered or beaten by a Lalafell barehanded, because there is "no lore to support that, except the strength of "one-off" characters in the story who are apparently extraordinary compared to a normal Lalafell"...still don't get it.

That right there tells me I shouldn't ever try, nor should I ever support others to try this tournament, because I simply have been allowed to win as the leader has "looked the other way" because of RPG rules. Â Reminds me of when people ask me to donate blood, slightly opposite, but only less upsetting because it is irl and not ig, when they ask me to help them, but then when they ask if I have slept with men before, and I need to say no, or otherwise they can't accept my blood.

(Not that you have ever asked me personally to come, nor would I assume you to do that, particularly after this bit of discourse)

Cato · **08-05-2015, 07:45 PM**

I may be wrong but it often feels very much like some people use 'realism' as an excuse to push their own personal power fantasy. No matter what MMO I've invested in for role-play I've often seen people argue that 'realistically' the bigger races should almost always beat the smaller races in a straight up fight.

The thing is, this is pushed by some people even when there's examples given to the contrary and even when people try to explain that the same realism we'd apply to the real world doesn't necessarily carry the same weight in a heroic fantasy setting.

On the subject of the real world, however, it's worth noting that there's average women who have managed to lift up a car through sheer will and adrenaline when their child has been endangered. I can quite easily envision something similar happening in a fight between a lalafell and a roegadyn.

To be honest, I'm getting very weary of the ridiculous 'highlander/roegadyn master race xD' crap that seems to lurk beneath the surface within this community. Bigger isn't necessarily better - especially in a fantasy setting.

Besides, I'd like to think quite a lot of people invest in role-play for the sake of fun and not stroking other people's egos to perpetuate what often comes across as little more than a power fantasy.

For clarity, this isn't aimed at anybody in particular and is more a general message to the community based on what I've seen in-game.

On a side note, I do wonder if people shy away from role-playing lalafell because of the uphill struggle they often have to be taken seriously. It isn't a whole lot of fun when a character isn't allowed to score a victory - and roll fights alone aren't a fair system in every case since they usually revolve around leaving things up to chance rather than establishing that a smaller character can, in fact, beat a larger character in a straight up fight.

Warren Castille · **08-05-2015, 08:01 PM**

(08-05-2015, 07:27 PM)Momo Wrote: Yes, but as you read at the end, that is simply because you allow anyone who rolls well to win, nothing to do with actual strength or armor and weapons, so basically you are equating a Lalafell's chance of winning hand to hand combat to a woman in a bikini top, skirt, with a garden shovel. Â If it were actual RP, with no roll to support actions, you could never work out with a Lalafell RPer, that your big strong manly character couldn't be overpowered or beaten by a Lalafell barehanded, because there is "no lore to support that, except the strength of "one-off" characters in the story who are apparently extraordinary compared to a normal Lalafell"...still don't get it.

That right there tells me I shouldn't ever try, nor should I ever support others to try this tournament, because I simply have been allowed to win as the leader has "looked the other way" because of RPG rules. Â Reminds me of when people ask me to donate blood, slightly opposite, but only less upsetting because it is irl and not ig, when they ask me to help them, but then when they ask if I have slept with men before, and I need to say no, or otherwise they can't accept my blood.

(Not that you have ever asked me personally to come, nor would I assume you to do that, particularly after this bit of discourse)

In combat roleplay especially, I believe in making your opponent look good. It's the wrestling mark in me, if I had to guess: I want to see good storytelling. Warren's lost in combat lots and lots of times, and making it look "real" is something I've always strived to do. Regarding Lalafell, it's a lot of overestimating attack arcs and angles (since he doesn't fight a lot of teensy people, so it's not easy for him to adjust) and lots of being clumsier than someone so much lower to the ground.

I'm not sure if you're using the universal "you" or calling me out specifically, but ask Chachanji (Gegenji on the forums, a promiment lalafell roleplayer) how his newbie-lalapaladin went against my grizzled highlander veteran.

Show Content

I try to be as "fair" as one can be in terms of combat roleplay. If the dice say you get beat up, it's on the person rolling to get beat up. Writing off an entire event (that usually sees dozens of people taking part) because you're making assumptions on behalf of the leader (that are pretty baseless, given my point of the thread) seems like a missed chance at fun roleplay.

Edit: To reiterate, I've got no problem taking my lumps from lalafell, and I have in the past. I just ask that they don't do this kind of bullshit to someone bigger than them.

[Image: tumblr_mkcgbxySwe1r37jd5o1_500.gif]

[Image: tumblr_mkcgbxySwe1r37jd5o1_500.gif]

Edgar · **08-05-2015, 08:04 PM**

This is why Koporo turns the tables and employs such tactics as landing on enemy blades, climbing on their backs, beating up their heads, and breaking their legs. It's also why he carries weapons made specifically to destroy certain parts of the body. He knows he's at a disadvantage most of the time, so he plays the part of saboteur. He destroys them one piece at a time.

He realizes his size is, in fact, a handicap against a larger opponent, so he needs to even the odds.

THAT is realism. Acknowledging the size differences lend as many disadvantages as advantages. Most people who play the "realism" card only acknowledge it to the point that it justifies their power play.

There's realism, and then there's the excuse of "Anything to allow me to kick your ass."

Caspar · **08-05-2015, 09:57 PM**

(08-05-2015, 07:45 PM)Graeham Wrote: On a side note, I do wonder if people shy away from role-playing lalafell because of the uphill struggle they often have to be taken seriously. It isn't a whole lot of fun when a character isn't allowed to score a victory - and roll fights alone aren't a fair system in every case since they usually revolve around leaving things up to chance rather than establishing that a smaller character can, in fact, beat a larger character in a straight up fight.

This thread for instance, did not sour me on being Lalafell, but golly gee it did sour me on Highlanders!

Well, not really. It just always seems like when this issue is brought up, or just realism in general, it's always a Highlander, even when it's not Warren, lol. Forgive me if my tone is kinda biting, I'm tired of this subject.

I played the character I wanted to because I felt like it. The thread was interesting in that it made me more aware that a lot of people disrespect my character concept and others like it by its very nature, and that I should avoid playing with them, so in that sense it was very useful. ICly, I've rarely actually encountered people within my RP group that demonstrate these assumptions. Certainly, I've made allowances and explained why it's possible both OOC and ICly, and have never made light of innate disadvantages like reach, but to whom is it enough and to who is it not? Why make the effort? An overemphasis on grittiness in an innately unrealistic setting discourage people from taking the time to play a fanciful character, and regulates a segment of the setting to comic relief.

I have invoked the exceptional nature of my character, who is by all intents and purposes "superhuman," or "superlala" I guess, due to training, freakishness, and a long, pretty spoilery hidden backstory, to allow for things IC. I can see a lot of people would just innately not buy it, even with said explanations in place, no matter how I sell it to them. They have a solidly entrenched view of how realistic the setting ought to be. To those players, I will flip the bird and hover away on a plume of blue Elixir Field aether. Compared to what Monks do in setting, nothing of what I've demonstrated ICly is even remotely impossible, but this speaks of a very personal system of degrees.

Just for example, Warren can make the distinction, for instance, that someone throwing a larger being is unrealistic, and then argue that it's only extreme circumstances like this that he's against, but tacitly, what's being argued is that the race's strength is innately inferior in a significant way, as opposed to the canonically demonstrated way, which is minor. An explanation Warren would buy would not appeal to the next Baralander who insists everyone Fecht and MMA their way to victory outside of the sanctioned limits of /roll RP combat. And I don't see how someone can make a distinction between a small character using tremendous force to mist your head or shatter a cobalt breastplate than a small character using tremendous force to lift another character bodily. The latter is only "less plausible" because of the fact that the person above can stand up, but as far as I was able to discern from the thread, the issue wasn't with the body mechanics as much as the strength involved. Regardless, teasing out minor points like this is pretty irrelevant, as the setting is suffused with magical influences. None of it is impossible in the slightest way.

Other things can apply this too. Some would find the idea of a lala punching powerfully believable, but not any of the things Monks regularly do in the setting, canonically, or even things much less exotic, such as not even throwing hadoukens of aether but cutting with waves of air pressure, a really common fictional motif in Asian fantasy, to the point of being nearly pedestrian. Sure, I've got my biases, I watch Wuxia and enjoy a lot of anime that uses similar motifs to it, but a lot of what Monks do demonstrates superhuman strength, so why is it that practically every member of a caste of warriors, regardless of race (Lalafell Monks appear in MNK quests pretty regularly too.) demonstrates supernatural physical prowess canonically, but it is impossible for a Lalafell of unusual strength to knock a man over?

Because some players have already decided, before you ever played with them, that the Lala character is a joke. I see that, personally, as imprinting one's own subjective suspension of disbelief onto someone else's character. That's godmodding.

Warren Castille · **08-05-2015, 10:22 PM**

(08-05-2015, 09:57 PM)Caspar Wrote: valid stuffs

Again, the discussionargument got diluted a bit, but my OP does state aetherless/generic circumstances first. As soon as we involve backstories and chakras and the sort it muddles the field, absolutely.

I guess it's my own biases that lend to that: Virara is (to me) very much the Martial Arts Disciple, capable of the Five Palm Exploding Heart Technique and that sort of mysteriousness and danger that comes with kung fu tropes and stuff. You rarely see that sort of kung fu master fling people around by their ankles, though, especially not someone grossly larger.

...unless you do see that and my own (un)familiarity outside of the stereotypes is what's giving me my blinders on this subject. Basically, if someone's going to throw someone larger, I'd prefer (and this is the personal opinion, obviously) to see it come down to something more than grab+lift+hurl. To use myself as an example, I had Warren judo-throw Judge, both of them in full armor, but I made it a point to cite momentum and intention as opposed to something outright looking silly.

Work smarter, not harder, basically. Not aimed at you, and you know that I hope, but yeah.

To reiterate a point that got brought up I think a year ago when this was first discussed: The impetus for this thread was watching a lalafell at a fighting expo emote lifting a prone miqo'te by his belt, over the lala's head, and then trying to dart throw that miqo'te into a wall, all as one action. Try not to picture Mario 2.

Edit:

OP quote for emphasis Wrote:What are some certifiable, actually-sourced lore bits that say that lalafells are as strong as a Roe? I'm not asking for aether theories or Hydaelyn bits, and I also don't care about game-mechanics ("A lala war has the same strength as a highlander one!") for obvious balance reasons. I just want to know how the average lala is able to bench press as much as a <literally any other race here> and throw a punch able to knock down anyone who isn't also a lalafell.

Caspar · **08-05-2015, 10:31 PM**

(08-05-2015, 10:22 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(08-05-2015, 09:57 PM)Caspar Wrote: valid stuffs

Again, the discussionargument got diluted a bit, but my OP does state aetherless/generic circumstances first. As soon as we involve backstories and chakras and the sort it muddles the field, absolutely.

I guess it's my own biases that lend to that: Virara is (to me) very much the Martial Arts Disciple, capable of the Five Palm Exploding Heart Technique and that sort of mysteriousness and danger that comes with kung fu tropes and stuff. You rarely see that sort of kung fu master fling people around by their ankles, though, especially not someone grossly larger.

...unless you do see that and my own (un)familiarity outside of the stereotypes is what's giving me my blinders on this subject. Basically, if someone's going to throw someone larger, I'd prefer (and this is the personal opinion, obviously) to see it come down to something more than grab+lift+hurl. To use myself as an example, I had Warren judo-throw Judge, both of them in full armor, but I made it a point to cite momentum and intention as opposed to something outright looking silly.

Work smarter, not harder, basically. Not aimed at you, and you know that I hope, but yeah.

To reiterate a point that got brought up I think a year ago when this was first discussed: The impetus for this thread was watching a lalafell at a fighting expo emote lifting a prone miqo'te by his belt, over the lala's head, and then trying to dart throw that miqo'te into a wall, all as one action. Try not to picture Mario 2.

Edit:

OP quote for emphasis Wrote:What are some certifiable, actually-sourced lore bits that say that lalafells are as strong as a Roe? I'm not asking for aether theories or Hydaelyn bits, and I also don't care about game-mechanics ("A lala war has the same strength as a highlander one!") for obvious balance reasons. I just want to know how the average lala is able to bench press as much as a <literally any other race here> and throw a punch able to knock down anyone who isn't also a lalafell.

You can make as many allowances as you want, but what you're talking about is believability, and one excuse given ICly is not worth the same to different people. Mundane or no, the ridiculousness of the situation is what you're evaluating and that has as much to do with your own suspension of disbelief as it does theirs. I suppose you could blame the implausibility of the mental image for the entire topic of discussion, really, as it's mostly due to the writer creating a scenario where it shouldn't be possible due to the character standing up, and actual physical strength has nothing to do with it.

Melkire · **08-05-2015, 11:22 PM**

[Admin Hardhat]

Welp. This was a huge necro and the only place left for this thread to go is back into the same circular arguments. I'm going to take the liberty of locking this. Any tangential discussioj should be had in a new thread. This one is played out.

[/Admin Hardhat]

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