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Manari · **08-26-2015, 11:30 AM**

I wasn't aware that was the LB etiquette now. I thought it was standard to wait until both level 1 and level 2 bars were full before using it on the last boss of a dungeon. I don't really read up on this kind of thing.

Gegenji · **08-26-2015, 11:51 AM**

(08-26-2015, 11:30 AM)Manari Wrote: I wasn't aware that was the LB etiquette now. Â I thought it was standard to wait until both level 1 and level 2 bars were full before using it on the last boss of a dungeon. Â I don't really read up on this kind of thing.

I know you can usually bust out a LB on the first boss if you have enough charge (and even the second if you think you can build up enough before the final one), but I usually see people saving for dropping a two on the last boss as well. It's usually for melee DPS to pop, but I've seen my fair share of casters (and now BRDs and MCHs) that will "steal the glory" and pop it if the melee isn't doing it fast enough for their tastes. Or they just want to see their LB. I dunno.

Cato · **08-26-2015, 12:07 PM**

I had...the most bizarre run of The Vault yesterday. I pulled the first group of enemies and then, suddenly:

Healer: WTF!!!? tank why u wasting cooldown on trash????
Me: Rampart? It'll be ready for the next big group and then for the boss after that. I do it every run like this and there's never been a problem...
Healer: lol? only bad tanks need to use cooldowns on trash u only need flash
Me: No, I need to use my entire kit efficiently to put less strain on the group overall.
Healer: omg bye we cannot do last boss like this
Me: Safe travels! I hope you have a very pleasant day!Â

At that point the healer 'disconnected' and once we'd gotten rid of her we got another healer instead. The run was smooth and we had no issues after that. At the end of the run the two DPS players admitted that felt intimidated trying out tanking because of players like the first healer and I ended up chatting with one of them and setting him up on his career to try out tanking for himself.

Sylentmana · **08-26-2015, 01:25 PM**

(08-26-2015, 12:07 PM)Graeham Wrote: I had...the most bizarre run of The Vault yesterday. I pulled the first group of enemies and then, suddenly:

Healer: WTF!!!? tank why u wasting cooldown on trash????
Me: Rampart? It'll be ready for the next big group and then for the boss after that. I do it every run like this and there's never been a problem...
Healer: lol? only bad tanks need to use cooldowns on trash u only need flash
Me: No, I need to use my entire kit efficiently to put less strain on the group overall.
Healer: omg bye we cannot do last boss like this
Me: Safe travels! I hope you have a very pleasant day!Â

At that point the healer 'disconnected' and once we'd gotten rid of her we got another healer instead. The run was smooth and we had no issues after that. At the end of the run the two DPS players admitted that felt intimidated trying out tanking because of players like the first healer and I ended up chatting with one of them and setting him up on his career to try out tanking for himself.

I hear stories like this fairly often and it always makes me sad. We healers need to support our tanks. Healers and tanks work off each others synergy more than any other roles so I've always seen them as partners. Besides, as long as the tank is holding aggro, the healer shouldn't have anything to complain about. She was probably just looking for an excuse to leave.

Jana · **08-26-2015, 01:27 PM**

(08-26-2015, 11:51 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 11:30 AM)Manari Wrote: I wasn't aware that was the LB etiquette now. Â I thought it was standard to wait until both level 1 and level 2 bars were full before using it on the last boss of a dungeon. Â I don't really read up on this kind of thing.

I know you can usually bust out a LB on the first boss if you have enough charge (and even the second if you think you can build up enough before the final one), but I usually see people saving for dropping a two on the last boss as well. It's usually for melee DPS to pop, but I've seen my fair share of casters (and now BRDs and MCHs) that will "steal the glory" and pop it if the melee isn't doing it fast enough for their tastes. Or they just want to see their LB. I dunno.

Building the LB bar depends on the group's iLv tii, it goes slower the better your gear us. So the only place I get mad about an aoe one being used over my melee one one is on the second boss of Neverreap... There are a few groups now who will prefer for a caster/ranged LB1 on a big trash pull instead since bosses should die just fine without it.

Sin · **08-26-2015, 01:35 PM**

With the obvious exception of certain strategies like the aforementioned last pull in Wanderer's Palace.... USE THE LB!

Nothing bothers me more than staring at an unused full bar for the entire dungeon. It charges back up. Blow it on the first boss, blow it on the second, and blow it on the third.

Ask the melee to LB if he's not, do it yourself if there's no melee. Use it! Speed up that run, no need to hold on to it like its precious and we gotta take it to the last boss.

Also, sounds like you got trolled by a retard Graeham.

I'nhalki · **08-26-2015, 08:26 PM**

My first time running Brayflox normal still makes me feel cringy. It was the first example of a true "speed run" I had seen. I was a Lv32/33 or so fresh WHM and had a WAR tank who began the dungeon by stating he was going to see if he could tank while drinking his coffee. We began and he pulled the first three groups--he died a small way in to the pull and began to berate me. Our NIN pointed out that he didn't have Defiance up. He laughed it off. The entire remainder of dungeon he continued his speed run pulls, ignoring his cool downs and relying on what I assumed he thought was gear that would carry him through on its own. He would stop every time I was drained of MP and point out how I couldn't keep up and we had to keep waiting on the healer.Â

This run taught me, especially now that I main a tank, to be a lot more considerate of each individual party that I get. I always start out, much like Graeham did in the post above, by popping my cooldowns prodigiously during our first few trash pulls just to get a feel for how the healer is keeping up. I have found nothing to be more painful in this game so far than tank-healer animosity. There can be a lot of vitriol and cross-blaming. I'm sure my 'test the waters' tanking method has annoyed some groups who are looking for the blistering speed run every time, but I feel it's nice to keep in mind that there are new people left when you're running leveling roulette. Even higher level content, too, because someone may be returning after a long time.

Enla · **08-26-2015, 09:15 PM**

(08-26-2015, 01:25 PM)Sylentmana Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 12:07 PM)Graeham Wrote: I had...the most bizarre run of The Vault yesterday. I pulled the first group of enemies and then, suddenly:

Healer: WTF!!!? tank why u wasting cooldown on trash????
Me: Rampart? It'll be ready for the next big group and then for the boss after that. I do it every run like this and there's never been a problem...
Healer: lol? only bad tanks need to use cooldowns on trash u only need flash
Me: No, I need to use my entire kit efficiently to put less strain on the group overall.
Healer: omg bye we cannot do last boss like this
Me: Safe travels! I hope you have a very pleasant day!Â

At that point the healer 'disconnected' and once we'd gotten rid of her we got another healer instead. The run was smooth and we had no issues after that. At the end of the run the two DPS players admitted that felt intimidated trying out tanking because of players like the first healer and I ended up chatting with one of them and setting him up on his career to try out tanking for himself.

I hear stories like this fairly often and it always makes me sad. We healers need to support our tanks. Healers and tanks work off each others synergy more than any other roles so I've always seen them as partners. Besides, as long as the tank is holding aggro, the healer shouldn't have anything to complain about. She was probably just looking for an excuse to leave.

Pretty much how I feel as well; though I usually have the opposite problem of tanks -not- using their cooldowns and making it very hard to survive even basic trash pulls if the rest of the party isn't up to snuff in the damage department. HW in particular was designed to be much harder than the instances from the base game and the attitude of 'lol I can handle it' really only ends up hurting people more than not.

Also a short mini rant that's several weeks late from the day it happened... Please for the love of god do NOT run to me if you have the bomb status in Fractal. That fight is hard enough as is with DPS who aren't firing on all cylinders and by forcing me to cure through a bomb blast it only ensures I probably won't have anything in the tank by the end. It's also the one fight where my esuna loves to glitch out on a regular basis, sometimes not even casting even though it reached the end of it's bar and the animation has finished. So there's a double reason -why- I don't want people running bombs to me; on top of the fact that sometimes the reason I'm not getting to it is that the tank or someone else just took a huge hit and needs a quick cast to survive. I see the status, I will get it off immediately. You're not helping by bringing it over to me.

rainichan · **08-27-2015, 04:04 AM**

I generally try not to pug too much, mainly because I've had enough nasty groups that I tend to get anxiety flare-ups. I'm usually ok if I have people I know with me (1-2 others) but sometimes even then I get nasty people. Case in point:

When Caelia dinged 50, it was a time of "gear up enough to get the relic and move on up." I was high enough ilvl to run Lost City, and was using that to get out of my level 45-50 Wizard's gear (y'know, the stuff from the quests.) I had gotten the Darklight cowl and one of my friends had made rose gold accessories + Astrolabe for me to be able to pop into the dungeons that mattered to me. I decided I wanted to run Lost City again, husband joined me as the other dps. We get into the dungeon, and the healer immediately asks the tank if they can pull pretty big. Tank goes "sure!" and pulls the first two trash groups.

We wipe. Immediately it was on me, the blm, because I "wasn't doing enough damage" according to the healer. I shrugged it off and they pull again. I was quad-flaring, doing damage, doing more quad-flaring, we wipe again. The healer goes "I'm out of here, you have a bad black mage who can't do any freaking damage and can't play their class" and left after more berating I don't really care to remember, and some jabs from the tank as well. My husband finally goes "Hey tank, you wanna stop dying? You're ruining my dps." They try to do the "well things would be dying faster if the blm was doing their job right!" to which they got the response back "No, you're being an asshole because maybe if you were looking, you'd see she's still wearing her job quest equipment from levels 45 and 50. She can't do the damage you're looking for and instead you berate them for it? Really?" They said nothing more, and we left. It took me an hour to want to go back in. Husband tanked, and we went through two healers before we got one who stuck with the group (myself, mid-zeta husband tanking, and another fresh 50) since we weren't speed-running it.

The other time it was bad was when I was on my main trying to get my blm relic, on the Titan HM fight. We had two new healers healing it and a bitchy beyond belief tank who berated us every time we died. At the last time before we said eff it and left, the tank demanded we use the stack method for the weights. The only problem is that at the time, my connection was not that great and stacking was a bad idea for me (I couldn't ever get out in time because I was lagged out and I'd either be hurt badly or die.) I would stagger away from the group a little so one weight on me wouldn't kill me and it was instantly "Omg I'm going to votekick you, you're not listening you need to be stacking or are you too stupid to do that?!" I explained that no, I understood it but stacking was a bad method for me because lag. More berating, myself and the few FC members with me said "Nope, f you, we're out." and we left. Went back with a full party of FC members, cleared it in one go.

Recently though, it was only some slight passive aggressiveness that made me roll my eyes. I was in Sastasha as a level 15 conjurer, and regardless of actual level and gear, I know that things can go south pretty quick if a healer isn't on their A-game.Â In the Babby's First Dungeons I'm not entirely keen on stance dancing too heavily because of the aforementioned fights going south, but I was going back and forth, turning off stance when the tank got to about half life, and then going back to doing my subpar dps when he was near topped off/full health (my comfort zone.) One of the dps only types ">.>" and then marks the tank as "Target to Ignore 1." I know exactly why they did it, and I couldn't care less about it. I kept up on what I was doing and didn't hear anything else. I wasn't just standing when I could be helping, but ultimately? Sorry, my comfort in how often the tank should be healed is priority. Every healer has a different comfort level, and sorry you don't like it? But don't be PA and just ">.>" and say nothing to me otherwise. Looked the dps up later and saw they had whm at 60, and went "Oh. No wonder." That's not the way you get people to do something you want, you ask first. It's probably why I'm not looking forward to actually leveling AST at this point despite wanting to. Sad

tl;dr I don't like pugging if I can help it because on the off-chance I don't get some pretty fabulous people, they're Grade A Dicks that make me wish I could do dungeons by myself and get exp for it.

Korin · **08-27-2015, 07:04 AM**

(08-27-2015, 04:04 AM)rainichan Wrote: Â and then marks the tank as "Target to Ignore 1." I know exactly why they did it, and I couldn't care less about it. I kept up on what I was doing and didn't hear anything else. I wasn't just standing when I could be helping, but ultimately? Sorry, my comfort in how often the tank should be healed is priority. Every healer has a different comfort level, and sorry you don't like it? But don't be PA and just ">.>" and say nothing to me otherwise. Looked the dps up later and saw they had whm at 60, and went "Oh. No wonder." That's not the way you get people to do something you want, you ask first. It's probably why I'm not looking forward to actually leveling AST at this point despite wanting to. :(

tl;dr I don't like pugging if I can help it because on the off-chance I don't get some pretty fabulous people, they're Grade A Dicks that make me wish I could do dungeons by myself and get exp for it.

I've been there, and it's one of the reasons I don't like to pug as a healer. To be honest your entire post shouted out as a "hnngh I hear you loud and clear, this is EXACTLY why I don't like to pug". I levelled WHM on Raeth for a little while, for stoneskin (he kinda hit 30 and then stopped, though...) but occasionally my desire to at least do that daily roulette on those classes tends to drop and I just stop doing it. Queueing as a DPS just to get...say, Cutter's Cry, and then everyone immediately leaves? Not all that pleasant.

I just wish I could underman content and still get exp. :v I don't want to hassle people for boosts, I just want to be able to slowly haul my poor healer friend through dungeons while I level my tank...Without having to worry about getting some of the worst, most ungrateful DPS players of the duty finder.

On the subject of people subtly marking things for you, though...I queued Levelling Roulette: Qarn on my warrior - I was feeling pretty good, I was confident that I could tank a roulette! On very rare occasions, these things happen! And since it was an easy enough dungeon, I had no enmity issues, and didn't bother marking the mobs. Usually I'd mark at least one, to make my life easier, but today I didn't need it! Fortunately, the DPS did focus down my target, for the most part. One of them didn't really bother, but it didn't matter - FOR I AM WARRIOR, HEAR ME ROAR. I felt very optimistic!

Later on in the dungeon, however, someone started marking a kill order. Not just an "I am attacking this target" mark - They were marking the entire pulls! I hadn't lost enmity once through the entire dungeon, it was an extremely smooth run, but...For whatever reason, they started marking mobs. Naturally, the other DPS...Completely ignored these marks anyway. No one questioned it. I was a little confused, because...Well, surely mob marking is what I should be doing, right? If I'm struggling to hold enmity, i'd like people to focus X target so I have an easier time, right? Whatever reason they had for marking them, it didn't really serve any purpose.

And eventually I pulled that "asshole pugtank" card and started de-marking them for my own pleasure, giggling to myself behind the screen. :c I'm probably no better...I'll just go and sit in the corner now.

But as a side note, one of my pet peeves is when people don't say hello when I greet them. ;; It's not that hard to say hi, is it? You're going to be spending the next 30 mins or so stuck in this dungeon with me! Say something, at least! *sobs*

Gegenji · **08-27-2015, 07:43 AM**

(08-27-2015, 07:04 AM)Korin Wrote: But as a side note, one of my pet peeves is when people don't say hello when I greet them. ;; It's not that hard to say hi, is it? You're going to be spending the next 30 mins or so stuck in this dungeon with me! Say something, at least! *sobs*

I'm actually pretty bad about this, especially in my Expert roulette. I tend to go into "autopilot" in these things at this point - just going in and spamming heals (and then DPS on the bosses) to get towards my Eso cap for the week. If I have bad DPS, I don't really pay much attention as long as things die. If I have a bad tank, I grumble but do my best to keep them up while they ignore the Minotaur's swipes entirely in Fractal while still in mostly 58/59 gear. It's going through the motions for me at this point.

If I'm going with friends, or the party actually turns out to have a rather friendly person or two? Sure, I'll start chatting them up if I can between my heals and whatnot. Most of the time though, I'm dead silent and just looking to get in and out with as minimal headache as possible. Blush

ProvaDiServo · **08-27-2015, 08:10 AM**

(08-27-2015, 07:04 AM)Korin Wrote: But as a side note, one of my pet peeves is when people don't say hello when I greet them. ;; It's not that hard to say hi, is it? You're going to be spending the next 30 mins or so stuck in this dungeon with me! Say something, at least! *sobs*

I don't say hello back, I'm not really in duty finder to make friends.

I mean If I know you and recognize you I'll say "what's up" but otherwise nah.

Korin · **08-27-2015, 12:14 PM**

(08-27-2015, 08:10 AM)ProvaDiServo Wrote:
(08-27-2015, 07:04 AM)Korin Wrote: But as a side note, one of my pet peeves is when people don't say hello when I greet them. ;; It's not that hard to say hi, is it? You're going to be spending the next 30 mins or so stuck in this dungeon with me! Say something, at least! *sobs*

I don't say hello back, I'm not really in duty finder to make friends.

I mean If I know you and recognize you I'll say "what's up" but otherwise nah.

I can understand people being in autopilot mode or whatever, but still...It can't hurt for some people to type...what, two letters? I don't get at them for it, because like I said - It's just a pet peeve! But when you're stood around in the entrance waiting for someone to load in/finish watching/skipping the opening cutscene/casting protect and whatnot...Eeeh. It doesn't take that much effort, right?

I suppose it just makes me feel a little sad. Most pug groups do bother to respond, so I guess I notice it more if I'm doing the entire dungeon in silence...Which isn't a problem in itself - Until people decide to vocalise, at last, when something hasn't gone their way. I find a little bit disappointing when people only really have bad things to contribute in that kind of situation.

Whether people speak in party or not doesn't make much of a difference to me in the end, I'll just keep stubbornly throwing my greetings at them regardless. I just feel like it makes it a bit easier to communicate later on - especially in a lowbie roulette - If something is going wrong. For me, at least!

I'nhalki · **08-27-2015, 01:12 PM**

Playing on PS4, there are times I just want to lean back and not be hunched over my keyboard some evenings when I play, so I keep typed communication to a minimum and just use emotes. It's not too tough to use the controller keyboard, but it can be irritatingly slow. I would bet a lot of people who don't say hi in lowbie roulette dungeons are just lazy PS4 players like me! I always wave or /welcome, though.

Kellach Woods · **08-27-2015, 01:53 PM**

Collectables.

That is all.

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The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales

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