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Ashe · **08-31-2015, 09:17 PM**

The Knights are full of bastard sons (Aymeric, Haurchefant) and second sons (That guy who you have to save around level 38). None of those guys are really the top of society.Â
Oh yeah, I wouldn't pull the whole real life Xenophobic examples into this...
If you are born in Japan to non-Japanese parents and lived there all your life, you will forever be a foreigner. There is no exception to that.
I've lived in Japan for 3 years and worked there and even in America I work in Japanese company...I've lived in that society >>

SO if we are using that real world example with real world logic...someone who is not Ishgardian by blood, born and raised in Ishgard, will always be considered a foreigner >>

V'aleera · **08-31-2015, 09:20 PM**

(08-31-2015, 09:17 PM)Ashe Wrote: SO if we are using that real world example with real world logic...someone who is not Ishgardian by blood, born and raised in Ishgard, will always be considered a foreigner >>

The counter-argument is addressing the notion that it is 100% implausible for non-Hyur/Elezen to exist as citizens within Ishgard. It is not meant to broach the subject of their treatment.

Verad · **08-31-2015, 10:12 PM**

Setting plausibility is the #1 reason people fail to roleplay. Ignore it.

Judielle Farendaire · **08-31-2015, 10:42 PM**

Heh, glad I read the entire thread or I would have seriously misinterpreted the topic judging from the last few posts. >.>

Dragoons and the status of hyur/other races in Ishgard seem to have been talked about extensively, but I haven't seen much mention of High House lore in my skimming.

It's easiest to begin talking about the High Houses by speaking of their Coerthan holdings.Â (And if the Houses have already been discussed you can just skip all of this Tongue

)

House Fortemps only seems to hold Camp Dragonhead, in Central Coerthas, seeming to indicate that it is the weakest of the Four High Houses.Â (Explains why Haurchefant invited so many adventurers, mania or not.)

House Dzemael once held Dzemael Darkhold, but lost it to Garlean incursion before it was completely taken over by voidsent.Â Said voidsent were cleared by the Warrior of Light, so I'm not sure what the situation is now...Â Other than Darkhold, House Dzemael shares the rebuilt Falcon's Nest with House Durendaire.

House Haillenarte used to have a great deal of holdings, to my understanding, but lost many by Dravanian attack.Â Its knights currently hold the Skyfire Locks, which the countryside peasantry are meant to flee to upon Dravanian attack.Â (Lack of said peasantry seen in-game notwithstanding...)Â House Haillenarte once held both Steel Vigil and Stone Vigil, if I remember correctly, but has lost them since the Calamity.Â House Haillenarte's final holding is Camp Cloudtop, and the Rosehouse by extension, but no one seems to take the outpost quite seriously.

House Durendaire holds Whitebrim Front and the Observatorium of Aetherical and Astrological Phenomena, along with its condominium with Dzemael in Falcon's Nest and I believe (?) Stone Vigil, reclaimed from the dragons and handed over to Durendaire control.

From what I've seen personally, House Fortemps and House Haillenarte are rather amiable with each other, and there is much traffic between Haillenarte-held Skyfire Locks and Fortemps-held Camp Dragonhead. House Fortemps and House Haillenarte - especially Haillenarte for losing the Vigils - don't seem to be taken too seriously by the rest of Ishgard, especially Dzemael and Durendaire.

I've yet to do the questline myself, but I do believe the machinist storyline involves Haillenarte-Dzemael shenanigans involving a traditional Dzemael and relatively progressive, power-to-the-people young Haillenarte lord.Â

Finally, House Dzemael is said to be the strongest of the High Houses, but I do not believe the why or how has been stated.

EDIT: Oh! House Durendaire looks down especially heavily on House Haillenarte, as the loss of Stone Vigil placed greater pressure on Whitebrim Front, which they are in control of, and Durendaire was tasked with reclaiming the fortress.

Off-topic for the moment, because the conversation is personally interesting:

Quote:V'aleera:
IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim.

Not to diminish your argument, (there's an au ra in broad tavern-light in Foundation, after all), but I believe that the roegadyn is a foreign adventurer, not a native Ishgardian.

Sylastair · **08-31-2015, 11:01 PM**

(08-31-2015, 10:42 PM)Aronaux Farendaire Wrote: Heh, glad I read the entire thread or I would have seriously misinterpreted the topic judging from the last few posts. >.>

Dragoons and the status of hyur/other races in Ishgard seem to have been talked about extensively, but I haven't seen much mention of High House lore in my skimming.

It's easiest to begin talking about the High Houses by speaking of their Coerthan holdings.Â (And if the Houses have already been discussed you can just skip all of this )

House Fortemps only seems to hold Camp Dragonhead, in Central Coerthas, seeming to indicate that it is the weakest of the Four High Houses.Â (Explains why Haurchefant invited so many adventurers, mania or not.)

House Dzemael once held Dzemael Darkhold, but lost it to Garlean incursion before it was completely taken over by voidsent.Â Said voidsent were cleared by the Warrior of Light, so I'm not sure what the situation is now...Â Other than Darkhold, House Dzemael shares the rebuilt Falcon's Nest with House Durendaire.

House Haillenarte used to have a great deal of holdings, to my understanding, but lost many by Dravanian attack.Â Its knights currently hold the Skyfire Locks, which the countryside peasantry are meant to flee to upon Dravanian attack.Â (Lack of said peasantry seen in-game notwithstanding...)Â House Haillenarte once held both Steel Vigil and Stone Vigil, if I remember correctly, but has lost them since the Calamity.Â House Haillenarte's final holding is Camp Cloudtop, and the Rosehouse by extension, but no one seems to take the outpost quite seriously.

House Durendaire holds Whitebrim Front and the Observatorium of Aetherical and Astrological Phenomena, along with its condominium with Dzemael in Falcon's Nest and I believe (?) Stone Vigil, reclaimed from the dragons and handed over to Durendaire control.

From what I've seen personally, House Fortemps and House Haillenarte are rather amiable with each other, and there is much traffic between Haillenarte-held Skyfire Locks and Fortemps-held Camp Dragonhead. House Fortemps and House Haillenarte - especially Haillenarte for losing the Vigils - don't seem to be taken too seriously by the rest of Ishgard, especially Dzemael and Durendaire.

I've yet to do the questline myself, but I do believe the machinist storyline involves Haillenarte-Dzemael shenanigans involving a traditional Dzemael and relatively progressive, power-to-the-people young Haillenarte lord.Â

Finally, House Dzemael is said to be the strongest of the High Houses, but I do not believe the why or how has been stated.

EDIT: Oh! Â House Durendaire looks down especially heavily on House Haillenarte, as the loss of Stone Vigil placed greater pressure on Whitebrim Front, which they are in control of, and Durendaire was tasked with reclaiming the fortress.

Off-topic for the moment, because the conversation is personally interesting:

Quote:V'aleera:
IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim.

Not to diminish your argument, (there's an au ra in broad tavern-light in Foundation, after all), but I believe that the roegadyn is a foreign adventurer, not a native Ishgardian.

I believe the Roe chef in Costa is a native of Ishgard if I'm not mistaken, have to recheck though. /randomroefactsIthinkIknow

Ronin'ra · **08-31-2015, 11:12 PM**

(08-31-2015, 11:01 PM)Flynt Knoltros Wrote:
(08-31-2015, 10:42 PM)Aronaux Farendaire Wrote: Heh, glad I read the entire thread or I would have seriously misinterpreted the topic judging from the last few posts. >.>

Dragoons and the status of hyur/other races in Ishgard seem to have been talked about extensively, but I haven't seen much mention of High House lore in my skimming.

It's easiest to begin talking about the High Houses by speaking of their Coerthan holdings.Â (And if the Houses have already been discussed you can just skip all of this )

House Fortemps only seems to hold Camp Dragonhead, in Central Coerthas, seeming to indicate that it is the weakest of the Four High Houses.Â (Explains why Haurchefant invited so many adventurers, mania or not.)

House Dzemael once held Dzemael Darkhold, but lost it to Garlean incursion before it was completely taken over by voidsent.Â Said voidsent were cleared by the Warrior of Light, so I'm not sure what the situation is now...Â Other than Darkhold, House Dzemael shares the rebuilt Falcon's Nest with House Durendaire.

House Haillenarte used to have a great deal of holdings, to my understanding, but lost many by Dravanian attack.Â Its knights currently hold the Skyfire Locks, which the countryside peasantry are meant to flee to upon Dravanian attack.Â (Lack of said peasantry seen in-game notwithstanding...)Â House Haillenarte once held both Steel Vigil and Stone Vigil, if I remember correctly, but has lost them since the Calamity.Â House Haillenarte's final holding is Camp Cloudtop, and the Rosehouse by extension, but no one seems to take the outpost quite seriously.

House Durendaire holds Whitebrim Front and the Observatorium of Aetherical and Astrological Phenomena, along with its condominium with Dzemael in Falcon's Nest and I believe (?) Stone Vigil, reclaimed from the dragons and handed over to Durendaire control.

From what I've seen personally, House Fortemps and House Haillenarte are rather amiable with each other, and there is much traffic between Haillenarte-held Skyfire Locks and Fortemps-held Camp Dragonhead. House Fortemps and House Haillenarte - especially Haillenarte for losing the Vigils - don't seem to be taken too seriously by the rest of Ishgard, especially Dzemael and Durendaire.

I've yet to do the questline myself, but I do believe the machinist storyline involves Haillenarte-Dzemael shenanigans involving a traditional Dzemael and relatively progressive, power-to-the-people young Haillenarte lord.Â

Finally, House Dzemael is said to be the strongest of the High Houses, but I do not believe the why or how has been stated.

EDIT: Oh! Â House Durendaire looks down especially heavily on House Haillenarte, as the loss of Stone Vigil placed greater pressure on Whitebrim Front, which they are in control of, and Durendaire was tasked with reclaiming the fortress.

Off-topic for the moment, because the conversation is personally interesting:

Quote:V'aleera:
IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim.

Not to diminish your argument, (there's an au ra in broad tavern-light in Foundation, after all), but I believe that the roegadyn is a foreign adventurer, not a native Ishgardian.
I believe the Roe chef in Costa is a native of Ishgard if I'm not mistaken, have to recheck though. /randomroefactsIthinkIknow

There is, yeah. He mentions that his family served in House Dzemael.

EDIT: "But if I wasn't bowing and scraping to some pretentious Ul'dahn mechant, I reckon I'd be doing the same to Count Dzemael. That may have suited my father and grandfather, but I've aspirations for a better life."

He's involved in the 1.0 Adders/Darkhold quest. "Into the Dark (Gridania)"

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Into_t...ot_Details

Picture of him then:

V'aleera · **08-31-2015, 11:17 PM**

(08-31-2015, 10:42 PM)Aronaux Farendaire Wrote:
Quote:V'aleera:
IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim.

Not to diminish your argument, (there's an au ra in broad tavern-light in Foundation, after all), but I believe that the roegadyn is a foreign adventurer, not a native Ishgardian.

It's been a while since I did those quests, so you may be right. If you know of any relevant quest text I'd be curious to read it.

Judielle Farendaire · **08-31-2015, 11:21 PM**

(08-31-2015, 11:17 PM)V'aleera Wrote: It's been a while since I did those quests, so you may be right. If you know of any relevant quest text I'd be curious to read it.

I'll look now and see what I can find! Smile

Riven · **08-31-2015, 11:31 PM**

Also forgot to ask.Â Good dragoon last names?

Sounsyy · **08-31-2015, 11:42 PM**

(08-31-2015, 05:31 PM)Ashe Wrote: I play by the rule that if you haven't seen it in the MSQ or in the towns around you, it probably doesn't exist...There should be no miqo'te in Ishgard as Ishgardian citizens. Like...period. There are no non-outside people in Ishgard who are Miqo'te. At all.

Um. There's a lot of things that exist in the game world that you don't see but are there. Like schools in Ul'dah or a library in Stillglade Fane. Or the fact that there's a Shepard's Guild in old Falcon's Nest.

There are Ishgardian Miqo'te...

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Even outside of Ishgard there are Miqo'te like Q'yantaa and O'bhen Tia, who are hunters in Dravania. There's L'khonebb, a Garlond Ironworks engineer and pilot operating in Ishgard. Mujih Mewrilah, a Gridanian native, infiltrates Ishgard using several of her acquaintances. No one seems to bat an eye at her presence.

Now this is the logic I can't follow... Elezen and Hyur are undoubtedly the two most populous races in Ishgard. No one is questioning that. But the peace between their races only occurred within the last 500 years in Gelmorra. There's a reason the Gelmorran flag is of twin serpents (Elezen and Hyur) encircling a Lotus (symbol of peace).

So within the last 500 years, Hyur were allowed to assimilate into Ishgardian society, achieve some small manner of prestige, become knights and dragoons - BUT you believe that Miqo'te would be outright rejected from Ishgard? Miqo'te have been living in Dravania, Sharlayan, the Black Shroud, Gyr Abania, and in Coerthas itself for easily a thousand years and have had no stated history of violence against the Ishgardian Elezen, but in all this time they wouldn't be accepted into Ishgardian society, despite surrounding the region on all sides? What then keeps Roegadyn out of Ishgard? Dzemael seems to have a few Roegadyns hanging about in 1.0 and 2.0.

(08-31-2015, 11:01 PM)Flynt Knoltros Wrote: I believe the Roe chef in Costa is a native of Ishgard if I'm not mistaken, have to recheck though. /randomroefactsIthinkIknow

Dyrstweitz Wrote:Sometimes I question if opening the Flying Shark was the right decision. But if I wasn't bowing and scraping to some pretentious Ul'dahn mechant, I reckon I'd be doing the same to Count Dzemael. That may have suited my father and grandfather, but I've aspirations for a better life.

EDIT: Eir beat me to it.

I literally do not see why sometime during all of Ishgard's long existence a Miqo'te family could not have moved into the city-state, killed a dragon, become a citizen, knight, retainer, or whatever. There's nothing barring them from being in the city any more than there is barring Hyur. No one's saying Miqo'te have to be in huge population (lore says they're supposed to be incredibly rare race anyways). And no one's saying there should be Miqo'te nobles or dragoons everywhere. But to outright be incredulous to their existence? There's no reason to be. And don't say xenophobia cuz they've got a bloody Garlean as their second in command of the Temple Knights and Dzemael has several generations of Sea Wolves at their service. Meanwhile, Fortemps hires all manner of foreigners:

House Fortemps Steward Wrote:As for those sworn to House Fortemps... In addition to the knights, squires, and infantry, more than a hundred craftsmen, retainers, and other servants possessed of notable skill are pledged to our service. Given our strong position, one might expect us to have no truck with foreign merchants and sellswords. However, nothing could be further from the truth. I should think that my lord the count was quite clear on this point, but it was our hope that you and your allies would, by your deeds, help us to convince the other High Houses of the wisdom of opening the Gates of Judgement to all - among other things.

Do you NEED to have Ratatoskr's blood in your veins to be a Dragoon? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You just need to kill a dang dragon. Go to the Convictory and you'll find all manner of folk out there trying to do just that - noble, lowborn, foreigner, and sellsword alike. Do you need Ratatoskr's blood to perform super crazy Azure Dragoon-esque aether stunts? IDK. But you've got Hyuran dragoons and if they can interbreed with Elezen I don't see why a Miqo'te couldn't in twice the number of years.

These race exclusions are ridiculous y'all. Every race exists in every city-state and if you don't believe me I can show you canon examples. If you think certain examples don't count just because the source came from 1.0 you best check yourself cuz like 60% of the lore we know about this world comes from 1.0 and most of the new info they add was just recycled from old 1.0 NPC chat.

/endrant.

Bonus: Have a Far Eastern Miqo'te.

Ashe · **08-31-2015, 11:58 PM**

(08-31-2015, 11:42 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(08-31-2015, 05:31 PM)Ashe Wrote: I play by the rule that if you haven't seen it in the MSQ or in the towns around you, it probably doesn't exist...There should be no miqo'te in Ishgard as Ishgardian citizens. Like...period. There are no non-outside people in Ishgard who are Miqo'te. At all.

Um. There's a lot of things that exist in the game world that you don't see but are there. Like schools in Ul'dah or a library in Stillglade Fane. Or the fact that there's a Shepard's Guild in old Falcon's Nest.

We know that Hyur are treated as low born from the 3.0 MSQ so why would miqo'te be treated higher than that?
Also....those examples are all in the game, so those are all valid.Â
If Ishgardians are defined by

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then no one besides the Elezen are Ishgardians. Period. The rest, even if born there and lived there entire lives and even if their parents were born there later, are foreigners. And that is how Japan works too...and this is a Japnese game.

Jana · **09-01-2015, 12:00 AM**

Ishgard is not Japan. There are plenty of Hyur in the country that aren't lowborn. They are still nobles, even if they're just not heads of the four main houses. The sidequests in there imply you can become a noble by slaying an important enough dragon (which is what a lot of the knights/"plain dragoons" are trying to do in W. Coerthas).

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 12:02 AM**

I'm pretty sure the Elezen have neglected to inform the other races than have been fighting for Ishgard against the dragons for 1000 years of that little "fact".

As far as the lore has been written to this point, nobility is defined by blood. Citizenship is not clearly defined, but probably involves birth, naturalization, and religion.

Judielle Farendaire · **09-01-2015, 12:03 AM**

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Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 01:13 AM**

To just assume that Ratatoskr's blood, one of the biggest revelations in the HW MSQ, doesn't figure into the job class that are not only considered to be the symbol of Ishgard but also stated to have an "inner dragon" of sorts that is implied to be far more than metaphorical is pretty ridiculous.

When we see a miqo'te dragoon somewhere, I'll believe it. Simple as that.

There are so many ways in which you could say "Well I know the lore says this but ACTUALLY IT'S" yadda yadda but at some point you have to wonder how far bending the lore and abusing the hell out of poor, innocent grey areas is worth it to have a dragoon with cat ears and a tail.

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