RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

V'aleera · **09-22-2015, 02:17 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:11 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How is the claim that it isn't canon any more shaky than the claim that it is canon? We've seen ample evidence that flavor text can be non-canon, just as I'm sure there are examples of things such as questlines or dialogue confirming something asserted in the flavor text of an item.

We've seen a single instance of a group of localization team members, none of whom are in a position of authority, give personal opinions during a private lunch conversation about one of the most mechanically dubious objects available on the cash shop.

You're gonna need a bit more evidence than that to start throwing around words like "ample".

I'm personally not a fan of IC Fantasia, but let's not misrepresent facts here.

McBeefâ„¢ · **09-22-2015, 02:18 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:15 PM)Martiallais Wrote: All I know is I hope vampires are bullet proof from all the MCH shots being fired in this thread. I don't know how many more 'Oh snap' gifs I can find on the internet!

I think this is just going to be one of those things that 'most' people consider bad form (like saying you have the actual, one of a kind artifact weapon or some other rare item) but is acceptable in whatever group you play/rp with. Different strokes, different folks and all that. Thankfully the Balmung sandbox is big enough that you should be able to find someone that'll go along with it despite what others think.

I'm just...honestly surprised the thread has gone on this long to be perfectly honest.

.........

Also I hope someone gives me an invite when we start the Ishgardian Underground Monster Wrestling Linkshell, I'm rolling up a werewolf for that RITE NAO.

This thread cannot die.

Much like my new character Evangelampire.

Val · **09-22-2015, 02:22 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:17 PM)V Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:11 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How is the claim that it isn't canon any more shaky than the claim that it is canon? We've seen ample evidence that flavor text can be non-canon, just as I'm sure there are examples of things such as questlines or dialogue confirming something asserted in the flavor text of an item.
We've seen a single instance of a group of localization team members, none of whom are in a position of authority, give personal opinions during a private lunch conversation about one of the most mechanically dubious objects available on the cash shop.

You're gonna need a bit more evidence than that to start throwing around words like "ample".

I'm personally not a fan of IC Fantasia, but let's not misrepresent facts here.

Let's not kid ourselves. One example is really all you need.

Caspar · **09-22-2015, 02:23 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:17 PM)V Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:11 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How is the claim that it isn't canon any more shaky than the claim that it is canon? We've seen ample evidence that flavor text can be non-canon, just as I'm sure there are examples of things such as questlines or dialogue confirming something asserted in the flavor text of an item.
We've seen a single instance of a group of localization team members, none of whom are in a position of authority, give personal opinions during a private lunch conversation about one of the most mechanically dubious objects available on the cash shop.

You're gonna need a bit more evidence than that to start throwing around words like "ample".

I'm personally not a fan of IC Fantasia, but let's not misrepresent facts here.

This entre debate is over misrepresenting facts. The idea that there is nothing at all to support vampires existing is of dubious canonicity yet represented by several as ironclad. Theres nothing to say either way, and thats all we can tell.

McBeefâ„¢ · **09-22-2015, 02:25 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:22 PM)Val Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:17 PM)V Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:11 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How is the claim that it isn't canon any more shaky than the claim that it is canon? We've seen ample evidence that flavor text can be non-canon, just as I'm sure there are examples of things such as questlines or dialogue confirming something asserted in the flavor text of an item.
We've seen a single instance of a group of localization team members, none of whom are in a position of authority, give personal opinions during a private lunch conversation about one of the most mechanically dubious objects available on the cash shop.

You're gonna need a bit more evidence than that to start throwing around words like "ample".

I'm personally not a fan of IC Fantasia, but let's not misrepresent facts here.

Let's not kid ourselves. One example is really all you need.

No, one example is all /You/ need.

Get it straight. You're not the arbiter of lore for everyone.

Flashhelix · **09-22-2015, 02:26 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:17 PM)Valeera Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:11 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How is the claim that it isn't canon any more shaky than the claim that it is canon? We've seen ample evidence that flavor text can be non-canon, just as I'm sure there are examples of things such as questlines or dialogue confirming something asserted in the flavor text of an item.
We've seen a single instance of a group of localization team members, none of whom are in a position of authority, give personal opinions during a private lunch conversation about one of the most mechanically dubious objects available on the cash shop.

You're gonna need a bit more evidence than that to start throwing around words like "ample".

I'm personally not a fan of IC Fantasia, but let's not misrepresent facts here.

There's not too much mechanically dubious about it. People on the dev team charged with translating, interpreting and (quite) often changing the lore of the game are probably qualified to make a statement such as "Is this object that would break the setting of the game over its knee canon?" The lore status of Fantasia matters far less than the many, many pointless roleplayer (IE a demographic that SE pretty much is unaware of the existence of) discussions would lead you or I to believe so. You don't exactly need a live confirmation by Yoshi P himself.

Warren Castille · **09-22-2015, 02:26 PM**

Let's not lose sight of the real argument here:

If there WERE vampires in Eorzea, they most certainly didn't get there by hogtying an elemental and then somehow turning into a bloodthirsty fiend as a result of a pact.

SE, don't you DARE prove me wrong in the future.

Oli! · **09-22-2015, 02:26 PM**

Okay but seriously folks.

All we know is that there's a vampire myth.

We have not proved and will not prove whether or not the myth points to fact.

That's all we've got.

Val · **09-22-2015, 02:26 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:25 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:22 PM)Val Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:17 PM)V Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:11 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How is the claim that it isn't canon any more shaky than the claim that it is canon? We've seen ample evidence that flavor text can be non-canon, just as I'm sure there are examples of things such as questlines or dialogue confirming something asserted in the flavor text of an item.
We've seen a single instance of a group of localization team members, none of whom are in a position of authority, give personal opinions during a private lunch conversation about one of the most mechanically dubious objects available on the cash shop.

You're gonna need a bit more evidence than that to start throwing around words like "ample".

I'm personally not a fan of IC Fantasia, but let's not misrepresent facts here.

Let's not kid ourselves. One example is really all you need.
No, one example is all /You/ need.

Get it straight. You're not the arbiter of lore for everyone.

Okay, then allow me to rephrase: the fact that one exists opens the idea that others may possibly exist. Whether you choose to agree with that is on you, but it doesn't discount that it's there.

Vitamin C · **09-22-2015, 02:27 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:06 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:00 PM)V Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 01:34 PM)Val Wrote: Then we must also go on the assumption that because it isn't in game, it doesn't exist? Like how there's no justification for miqo'te dragoons and such beyond the super special main character?
Or how there's no lore justifying the existence of a Hyur/Miqo'te pairing that doesn't end in them getting run out of town?
Or that there are no toilets.

WHERE DOES THE POOP GO.

Orenji had a daydream that he asked Hydaelyn this, and she disappeared before she could give the answer. There's something fishy here guys.

And I'm going to find out what.

Ignacius · **09-22-2015, 02:28 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:26 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Let's not lose sight of the real argument here:

If there WERE vampires in Eorzea, they most certainly didn't get there by hogtying an elemental and then somehow turning into a bloodthirsty fiend as a result of a pact.

SE, don't you DARE prove me wrong in the future.

.... You know Merlwyb is pretty pale...
.... and wears a long black coat....

Oli! · **09-22-2015, 02:29 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:28 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:26 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Let's not lose sight of the real argument here:

If there WERE vampires in Eorzea, they most certainly didn't get there by hogtying an elemental and then somehow turning into a bloodthirsty fiend as a result of a pact.

SE, don't you DARE prove me wrong in the future.

.... You know Merlwyb is pretty pale...
.... and wears a long black coat....

She uses a gun though, and as we all know the only vampire cool enough for guns is Blade.

DISPROVED.

Sounsyy · **09-22-2015, 02:31 PM**

(09-22-2015, 01:39 PM)Val Wrote: But now it's okay to assume based on what we see? I haven't seen a single miqo'te NPC in Ishgard outside of any recent immigrants, nor have I seen a single Miqo'te NPC dragoon and there is no flavor text relating to it afaik, so they must not exist.

Quite literally have no idea what your point is that you're trying to get across.

The thread you were linked to explores that in the past there were a very small number of Miqo'te who were canonically citizens of Ishgard. It also explored that in recent years there have been a number of foreigners coming to Ishgard who have risen to positions of esteem in Ishgardian society.

The lore-stated requirement for becoming a dragoon is that you must show you killed a true dragon. Correct? But there's nothing in lore that precludes the possibility of a Miqo'te killing a dragon. Whether they be an Ishgardian citizen or not. We have Lucia who is foreign born, who now is second command of the Temple Knights. There's Dyrstweitz, whose Roegadyn family has worked under House Dzemael for several generations. Sthalmann, who's native Lominsan who's reached a position of respect and esteem under House Durendaire(?). And Ser Grinnaux, who, like his brothers, left Ishgard before his father took ill, was a Gods Quiverman in Gridania for a decade at least before returning to Ishgard and becoming one of the Heaven's Ward.

Now with the influx of foreigners, some of whom are Miqo'te, as was pointed out in that link, there's absolutely nothing that precludes the eventuality that one of them might slay a dragon and pass the Knights Dragoon training.

From there - the applicant then goes into a rigorous training regiment with other green 'dragoon' wannabes.

More Than One Way Wrote:A dragons natural armor may seem impenetrable to an untrained eye, but a true dragoon knows well whence the vulnerabilities lie - a darkened spot, a bent plate, or if one is lucky, a barren patch. These days, too many youngbloods sign up for the training to join our noble ranks without showing a shred of decent talent, hence I have decided to thin out the crop through a trial. If the men can identify and destroy the spots on targets wrapped in scaleskin, they may continue their training. If they fail, they are to relinquish their weapon and accept pursuit of a less virtuous craft.

Look Before You Leap Wrote:Among the aspiring Knights Dragoon are a talented few who practice jumping attacks in equipment crafted from adamantite, the weight of which will help them to crush a dragon's skull as an eggshell. Alas, one such youth misstepped during his training and landed among the crags, breaking both his legs and armor in the impact. Though his injuries will heal, he requires a new pair of leg guards, and I would entrust none other than a skilled craftsman with the task.

All of that takes canon lore that we know and works within the realm of lore-possibility to create a character that can feasibly exist in lore.

On this topic, we were tasked with exploring whether or not a human vampire is possible in lore. The lore is not clear on whether or not it is, but definitely leans towards the existence of a vampire mythology that may or may not be based on some sort of fact. The mythology expressed in the lore snippets takes parts of real world vampiric mythologies and applies them to Eorzea. Ishgardians believe vampires are killed by driving a stake through their hearts or that they can transform into bats. Do vampires truly exist? Who knows. But the lore snippets included in my previous post merely discredit statements from the thread's first page that vampirism is not canon in FFXIV at all. Which is, as I pointed out, not entirely true.

(09-22-2015, 01:44 PM)Val Wrote: This is what I'm getting at. Flavor text =/= truth, as it has been used not only in XIV, but many other games and things to add.. well. Flavor. If you don't have sound lore, you shouldn't be going to the flavor text to find it like some kind of starved crack-fiend.

Again, a lot of our lore comes from these so-called "flavor texts." In-so-much that I hesitate to call them... flavor texts. Fishing Lore, especially, has an entirely different blurb (like mounts and minions) for related lore.

[Image: gwhe9NO.png]

This is flavor text:

Vampiric Tapestry Wrote:A flying cephalopod that rarely strays from the skies near Mok Oogl Island.

This is a lore blurb:

Vampiric Tapestry Wrote:Despite the fear-inducing moniker, this flying cephalopod neither sups on blood nor transforms into a bat. Rumors that it does not cast a shadow are unfounded, and all manner of stakes, from oak, to iron, to granite, to cermet, have been found effective in impaling this rather peaceful creature of the clouds.

If that's not lore, perhaps we should discount that Ala Mhigans had griffin riders as part of their army?
Flavor Text:

Griffin Wrote:Summon forth your griffin - half eagle, half lion, all business.

Lore Blurb:

Griffin Wrote:Fantastical winged beasts native to the unscalable peaks of Abalathia's Spine, griffins actually have a long history of serving as mounts. Indeed, before the city-state's fall, the Ala Mhigan army maintained a regiment of griffin-back soldiers who would harry opposing forces.

So is that not canon? What if I personally find that lore blurb laughably rediculous? Is it suddenly not canon now? No. Whether I like it, laugh at it, or otherwise, we 100% absolutely must take that Ala Mhigo had Griffin riders as part of its canon because we have nothing to dispute the claim and what one person individually might find humorous, another person can take quite seriously.

If you take away item descriptions, you're taking a way an absolute shitton of lore, I promise you. And the next time you ask me for lore help, if you expect me to avoid certain sources or even sources that don't appear in multiple places in the game, you're going to get a really thin response. If you don't wanna take it as your personal canon, by all means, don't. But it's part of the game's canon until stated otherwise.

Caspar · **09-22-2015, 02:32 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:26 PM)Val Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:25 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:22 PM)Val Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:17 PM)V Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:11 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How is the claim that it isn't canon any more shaky than the claim that it is canon? We've seen ample evidence that flavor text can be non-canon, just as I'm sure there are examples of things such as questlines or dialogue confirming something asserted in the flavor text of an item.
We've seen a single instance of a group of localization team members, none of whom are in a position of authority, give personal opinions during a private lunch conversation about one of the most mechanically dubious objects available on the cash shop.

You're gonna need a bit more evidence than that to start throwing around words like "ample".

I'm personally not a fan of IC Fantasia, but let's not misrepresent facts here.

Let's not kid ourselves. One example is really all you need.
No, one example is all /You/ need.

Get it straight. You're not the arbiter of lore for everyone.

Okay, then allow me to rephrase: the fact that one exists opens the idea that others may possibly exist. Whether you choose to agree with that is on you, but it doesn't discount that it's there.

If that logic makes sense to you, it should not seem unreasonable to assume that the flavor text does point in the direction of possible vampire myths existing, just maybe not necessarily the creature itself.

Kage · **09-22-2015, 02:33 PM**

(09-22-2015, 02:26 PM)Flashhelix Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:17 PM)V Wrote:
(09-22-2015, 02:11 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How is the claim that it isn't canon any more shaky than the claim that it is canon? We've seen ample evidence that flavor text can be non-canon, just as I'm sure there are examples of things such as questlines or dialogue confirming something asserted in the flavor text of an item.
We've seen a single instance of a group of localization team members, none of whom are in a position of authority, give personal opinions during a private lunch conversation about one of the most mechanically dubious objects available on the cash shop.

You're gonna need a bit more evidence than that to start throwing around words like "ample".

I'm personally not a fan of IC Fantasia, but let's not misrepresent facts here.

There's not too much mechanically dubious about it. People on the dev team charged with translating, interpreting and (quite) often changing the lore of the game are probably qualified to make a statement such as "Is this object that would break the setting of the game over its knee canon?" The lore status of Fantasia matters far less than the many, many pointless roleplayer (IE a demographic that SE pretty much is unaware of the existence of) discussions would lead you or I to believe so. You don't exactly need a live confirmation by Yoshi P himself.

I won't go further but having one tumblr name say "my brother is this and so I got to eat lunch with a few people on the team and asked them some questions" is not something I carry as far as I would "My name is ___, I write on behalf of this site's section, spend a lot of time on the lore forums, and I spoke with Fern himself; here's the record of it and what I took away from his answers!"

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Plausibility of Vampire RP

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes