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Ashscarred · **01-31-2014, 01:57 PM**

(01-31-2014, 01:33 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(01-31-2014, 01:13 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(01-31-2014, 01:09 PM)Naunet Wrote: What's wrong with making your character a fugitive (even if temporarily)? I really don't see the issue with that at all.

Nothing, but in my opinion it's not the other players decision to make.

I guess, but what else can one expect when discussing crimes in public? I dunno, I'm of the opinion that people should be more willing to "go with the flow" in roleplay. Yea, you have the final say on what happens to your character, but it's a bit silly to get upset when someone ICly calls out people for discussing crimes in public. I mean, that's just not a wise thing to do! xD

(01-31-2014, 01:20 PM)Musemi Wrote: But the example last night was clearly a case of someone taking over a scene and trying to GM it in a singular direction.Â

Except everyone involved (well, except maybe the lawman/woman - I'm unsure if they've posted in this thread) was apparently happy with the outcome of the scene? So I'm really not sure what the issue is here.

I would implore you to consider what playing a member of law enforcement really means and why it should be handled with care.

When you Role play, for example, a Flames officer, you are not simply playing that one individual. You are playing The Flames.Â

When you make a threat it comes with the full martial and bureaucratic might of the entire law enforcement machine. You carry in your hand the ability to met out consequences, small and dire, that other players MUST respect or be forced to break character.

To use a real world example, what happens when a police officer tries to make an arrest and things go awry? What happens if the officer is injured or even killed? Congrats, you now have to deal not with that individual, but with the entire law enforcement apparatus. That one officer is a cog in a machine that no one individual can effectively stand against.

Bringing this back to FF14, even in the realm of high fantasy, the above example still stands. Even if the officer in question was *wrong*, even if they were actively evil and corrupt, you CANNOT simply get away with crossing them. That's why, when misused, playing an officer can rise to the level of manipulating a scene. Almost no other type of character can simply walk in and create real consequences for all involved.

As for being a fugitive, if that's the logical path for a particular story to take, fine. It's not something I'd wantÂ arbitrarily imposed upon my character by someone else.

Ildur · **01-31-2014, 02:31 PM**

Players do not have any way to enforce their made up authority into others. The only authority a law enforcer player character can have is that given to them by those involved in the scene. If no one agrees OOCly to recognize him as a law enforcer, then he effectively is not an authority as far as those people are concerned. Which means there cannot be any 'real' consequences unless the players agree to it.

As usual, the key is to communicate OOCly anything that might cause lasting consequences on other people's characters.

ArmachiA · **01-31-2014, 02:46 PM**

Also, not for nothing, but I know a lot of criminal stuff goes on in public in real life. Like, a lot. In a restaurant, in a park, in a museum. Usually, unlike roleplay, voices don't carry that far and doing it in public is actually safer. Saying "You did it in public, you deserve it" is completely unrealistic.

source: I grew up in a bad neighborhood you have no idea.

LiadansWhisper · **01-31-2014, 03:36 PM**

I had this long post written out, but I scrapped it because it seemed pretentious.

Roleplay is about mutual cooperation. Â You tell a story with others, not against them. Â If everyone isn't happy, it's not a very good story. Â People need to remember that you can't win at Role-play. Â No, seriously, you can't. Â If you are trying to "win" at role-play, you're doin' it wrong, son.

If you're ever uncomfortable with a situation, speak up. Â And if the other guy gets butthurt because, omg, you won't let them do whatever they want (without any input on your part), then let them get butthurt.

And if they walk away in a snit because you didn't do what they wanted you to do, let them walk away.

Also, offing someone's character without talking to the player first? Â Um...what? Â Who the hell even does that? Â Seriously, uncool.

ArmachiA · **01-31-2014, 03:47 PM**

^ Fun story. In FFXI we had two people in our shell play our main antagonists, with one who flip floped sides a lot. Anyway, one of the main antagonists was kind of crazy so the other had to reel her in and they were doing a scene in Jueno with a member who was known for being a bit of a Metagamer, but he never did anything too bad and we mostly laughed it off.

Till we all overheard in the LS, "What the hell, dude?"

Turned out, the Metagamer found the two antagonists and cut off the sane one's head without asking. He just did it! Said he was the hero and killed the villain and now that player had to reroll.

We were DUMBFOUNDED.

So yeah, it does happen. Tongue

Steel Wolf · **01-31-2014, 03:50 PM**

(01-31-2014, 03:36 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I had this long post written out, but I scrapped it because it seemed pretentious.

Roleplay is about mutual cooperation. Â You tell a story with others, not against them. Â If everyone isn't happy, it's not a very good story. Â People need to remember that you can't win at Role-play. Â No, seriously, you can't. Â If you are trying to "win" at role-play, you're doin' it wrong, son.

If you're ever uncomfortable with a situation, speak up. Â And if the other guy gets butthurt because, omg, you won't let them do whatever they want (without any input on your part), then let them get butthurt.

And if they walk away in a snit because you didn't do what they wanted you to do, let them walk away.

Also, offing someone's character without talking to the player first? Â Um...what? Â Who the hell even does that? Â Seriously, uncool.

THIS

Every day of the YEAR.Â

I wish to hug your face for this post.Â I...er...if you'll let me, anyway.Â <33

C'kayah Polaali · **01-31-2014, 04:47 PM**

(01-31-2014, 03:36 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Also, offing someone's character without talking to the player first? Â Um...what? Â Who the hell even does that? Â Seriously, uncool.

This didn't happen. I offed C'kayah myself in response to the attacks by the Flames. This thread is about something else entirely.

Carry on. Smile

Caelia · **01-31-2014, 04:59 PM**

This might be in bad form, but I'm going to apply forum RP rules to MMO RP rules and see what happens. Â I'm new to MMO RP so if these are the same, my apologies for being redundant.

In every forum RP I've ever come across, there are two big rules that NO ONE should ever break and those are: powerplay (using OOC knowledge ICly without establishing how your character got that information) and godmodding. Â Godmodding means doing anything at all to a character (a guaranteed successful action) without A) leaving them a way to get out of it or B) checking with them first.

Doing part A means that your character can attemptÂ to punch the other character. Â It is the other character's choiceÂ as to whether it connects and hurts them or not. Â Doing part B means the above has been choreographed and the parties involved know what's coming and have compromised to make it work the best for both. Â Part A does not need OOC communication because the subtext of the action is, "Can my character do this?". Â By dodging or accepting the punch, the other player is adding the subtext of, "No" or "Yes."

I'm assuming this rule is a general rule for all RPing.

That being said, I think it's really poor manners not to at least ask OOCly if a walk in is possible/acceptable in this situation. Â There are some scenes I've seen/read where it seems like it would be in really bad form to just walk up and start doing things with the players (notice I said with, not to). Â Not just because it would derail things but because it's clear that whatever I do would fail to help the people accomplish their goals or would make their entire scene be about me instead of them.

I've never yet had a person jump into an RP scene I'm part of without asking first and checking with me in a tell. Â Usually, I say, "Yes, jump in! Â Jump in!" or I'll say, "Yes, I would love to have you join. Â Let me just get this conversation to a point where you can slide in easily without derailing anything and we'll play!" Â It sounds like this person did neither of those things and seemed to disregard the idea of "Am I adding myself to this scene for flavor or am I making this scene all about me?"

...I got lost in what I was trying to say but the point is, I think this person was a bit out of line and needs to learn when too much is too far in a walk-up rp.

Rook · **01-31-2014, 06:46 PM**

(01-31-2014, 01:57 PM)Ashscarred Wrote: I would implore you to consider what playing a member of law enforcement really means and why it should be handled with care.

When you Role play, for example, a Flames officer, you are not simply playing that one individual. You are playing The Flames.Â

When you make a threat it comes with the full martial and bureaucratic might of the entire law enforcement machine. You carry in your hand the ability to met out consequences, small and dire, that other players MUST respect or be forced to break character.

To use a real world example, what happens when a police officer tries to make an arrest and things go awry? What happens if the officer is injured or even killed? Congrats, you now have to deal not with that individual, but with the entire law enforcement apparatus. That one officer is a cog in a machine that no one individual can effectively stand against.

Bringing this back to FF14, even in the realm of high fantasy, the above example still stands. Even if the officer in question was *wrong*, even if they were actively evil and corrupt, you CANNOT simply get away with crossing them. That's why, when misused, playing an officer can rise to the level of manipulating a scene. Almost no other type of character can simply walk in and create real consequences for all involved.

As for being a fugitive, if that's the logical path for a particular story to take, fine. It's not something I'd wantÂ arbitrarily imposed upon my character by someone else.

It's important to note that this is a false analogy. Contrary to popular belief, the Immortal Flames are not a law enforcement branch. They're Ul'dah's military, and the Brass Blades are law enforcement. In your example, it would be as if an off duty US Army officer showed up and tried to act in the place of the police, rather than calling the police to deal with it. Yes, harming the officer would cause a good bit of trouble in its own right, but you're under no obligation to regard an Army officer as you would a police officer. And he'd have no right to arrest you. The Army fights our enemies, whereas the police protect and serve the people.

Just the same, the Immortal Flames don't patrol the city and make arrests. They fight the enemies of Ul'dah without. The Brass Blades take care of Ul'dah itself, policing its streets and Thanalan's roads (of course, they're often corrupt, but so are the police, on occasion). The Sultansworn are way off in Secret Service land, with authority that trumps both, but only when specifically serving the Sultanate.

Of course, the root of the problem here doesn't have too much to do with all this, but it's worth clarifying. The problem might not have existed at all if the Flames roleplayer was aware of this. Then again, maybe they were, and their character is just shady and corrupt, trying to take advantage of their position. There are certainly examples of military sorts doing that in real life.

Either way, there's plenty more at work here that others are addressing nicely.

Naunet · **01-31-2014, 06:58 PM**

(01-31-2014, 01:57 PM)Ashscarred Wrote: As for being a fugitive, if that's the logical path for a particular story to take, fine. It's not something I'd wantÂ arbitrarily imposed upon my character by someone else.

I'm not sure one would call it arbitrary if the story went down a path of "law person overheard what was construed as criminal conspiracy and decided to take action". That's just reasonable. Arbitrary would be more "I was just standing here and some Blade/Flame/whatever (ooc: yes, I know the difference - that the person in question might not have is another topic entirely) came up and randomly arrested me!"

LiadansWhisper · **01-31-2014, 07:03 PM**

(01-31-2014, 06:58 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(01-31-2014, 01:57 PM)Ashscarred Wrote: As for being a fugitive, if that's the logical path for a particular story to take, fine. It's not something I'd wantÂ arbitrarily imposed upon my character by someone else.

I'm not sure one would call it arbitrary if the story went down a path of "law person overheard what was construed as criminal conspiracy and decided to take action". That's just reasonable. Arbitrary would be more "I was just standing here and some Blade/Flame/whatever (ooc: yes, I know the difference - that the person in question might not have is another topic entirely) came up and randomly arrested me!"

Sure. Â But...from the description, I'm not sure how the person interpreted it as that. Â Since one character was turning himself into another character (who actually had the authority to take him into custody), and a third character - apparently overhearing the conversation - buts in and decides that he/she will take them both into custody. Â I know it didn't really come up, but the Flame didn't have the authority to arrest anyone, much less a Sultansworn. o_O

Ilwe'ran · **01-31-2014, 07:21 PM**

It's an uncool situation you got into Natalie.

I will not repeat what the other people said about respect and talking OOCly with people that interfere in YOUR plot while they have nothing to do with it.
I completly agree that anything looking like slavery, rape, death, captivity have to be accepted beforehand by the victim.
People talked a lot about surprise and I do some surprises as well. But with my partner only because I know him, I know what he wouldn't like and I can respect his character even if I sometimes push him onto some limits (beside, we talk OOCly, checking if everything is alright).
I don't agree with the idea that you should RP in party when you're RPing something "sensible" (unless ERP of course). Before interfering on some sensible situation (like what happened to you yesterday), people outside the plot should think five minutes to consider the consequences for the one they will RP with. I can understand the fact he wanted to fit to his character, but sometimes, to not destroy some other RPer pleasure, better act as if you didn't read anything.

Beside, if at any point, any moment, you feel uncomfortable or forced to something. You HAVE to stop the situation OOCly and not waiting a point you cannot stand it anymore. And if the one that RP with you doesn't listen to you, it just means that it's time for you to go away and ignore that person that doesn't respect you as a RPer and only want some selfish RP pleasure.

Never ignore your own feelings. That's the most important and even if you end to scratch someone else pride, you have to say when you're not feeling good IRL about some IC situation. It's RP, it's suppose to be fun, not something you have to endure.

Clover · **01-31-2014, 07:24 PM**

(Sorry if my reply is strange at this point. I've only read the first two pages ;_; )

I tend to go with the flow when I RP. To me, it's actuallyÂ interesting to seeÂ the huge turns RP can take, and how heavily it can influence your story.

This said, I know that not everyone enjoys losing all control over their own story, and to be fair, not all outcomes are pleasant even for me. So I believe that asking permission for important things would prevent future headaches.

I have a personal example from GW2. I played a girl who was in position to arrest some thieves. However, I whispered them asking them to help me find a reasonable excuse for my character not to arrest them, unless they were okay playing an arrest scene (I didn't mind which so long as it made sense). In case they wouldn't cooperate with making the story reasonable, I'd have simply walked away imagining that the sceneÂ didn't happen. You can't force an arrest to others, but others can't force you to be OOC either. A mutual agreement is necessary or things won't work.

Naunet · **01-31-2014, 09:52 PM**

(01-31-2014, 07:03 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Sure. Â But...from the description, I'm not sure how the person interpreted it as that. Â Since one character was turning himself into another character (who actually had the authority to take him into custody), and a third character - apparently overhearing the conversation - buts in and decides that he/she will take them both into custody. Â I know it didn't really come up, but the Flame didn't have the authority to arrest anyone, much less a Sultansworn. o_O

It could easily be played as an IC misunderstanding, wherein the soldier in question (again, ignoring the fact that Immortal Flames don't really have law enforcement power - that's a specific detail that's unnecessary when generalizing out the situation) perceived the man turning himself in as actually the man conspiring with the woman. Sultansworn certainly aren't immune to corruption, after all, and how is one to tell the difference between "I'm telling this person my plans because I'm turning myself in" and "I'm telling this person my plans because I'm hoping for their help" when you just overhear some words? Easy resolution would have been that, after being taken to the jail for booking, the Sultansworn could have explained the whole situation. They would've then had to wrestle with the choice of actually turning in their friend in the interest of preserving their own image or not. The former might have gotten said friend medical help, though, as certainly the Blades wouldn't have wanted to leave a criminal laying on the street; as soon as the Sultansworn gave them the what's what, they could've gone off to pick him up.

Renault Delumiere · **01-31-2014, 10:13 PM**

Â This is tommy the tonberry

Tommy the tonberry stabs this thread.

This thread has 0hp

This thread has died.

Do not keep beating the dead thread.

Let the damn thread die.

And all the beautiful people lived happily ever after.

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Seeking advice on dealing with conflict

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