How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Printable Version +- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18) +-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8) +--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13) +--- Thread: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? (/showthread.php?tid=12251) |
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Verad - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:53 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:44 PM)Verad Wrote: People are relying on this argument of investment, but I have to say that somebody who has played this game for a long time and has remained at a low level is showing a level of commitment that can't help but make me doff my hat towards them. I am honest with myself - I recognize there is no done well or poorly. There is whether I like them or do not like them, which may have nothing at all to do with quality of execution. Certainly level has little to do with it, and I would ask that people who insist on viewing level as a metric of character power chastise the 60s for playing 15s as much as they do the 15s for playing 60s. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Dogberry - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:46 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:40 PM)Dogberry Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:28 PM)Sin Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:11 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I tend to play out The Journey.So because the character is wearing weathered horas he's going to see things wrong with his body mechanics. Not just assume, nor think he sees, but literally you're going to assign wrong factors to the other characters mechanics because you know that that is a level 1 weapon and you've Inspected his level to be low? This is a fantastic question. Can the character equip gear that would be practical for a skilled swordsman to wear? It doesn't take a whole lot of levelling to achieve that look. So the character claims to be a Flame Sergeant. Can the character equip the Flame Sergeant set? That's only what, level 20 gear? It's entirely believable for a level 20 character in Flame Sergeant gear to be a skilled swordsman, and be taken seriously in character. I don't think "skilled swordsman" is an outrageous claim for a character of that level and gear. "Legendary swordsman" would be pushing it. But if you're not even willing to level up your flame sergeant character to that level, don't start barking orders in my ear like your Gunnery Sergeant Hartman. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Arik - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:40 PM)Dogberry Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:28 PM)Sin Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:11 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I tend to play out The Journey.So because the character is wearing weathered horas he's going to see things wrong with his body mechanics. Not just assume, nor think he sees, but literally you're going to assign wrong factors to the other characters mechanics because you know that that is a level 1 weapon and you've Inspected his level to be low? To me, this just feels like the equivalent of seeing a guy at an expensive restaurant dressed in cheap jeans, converse sneakers and a T-shirt, assuming that he's clearly "poor"-- and then watching him drive away in his Rolls Royce. Just like real life, you can't judge someone nor their standing in life entirely by what they look like or what they're wearing. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Hammersmith - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:57 PM)Dogberry Wrote: This is a fantastic question. See, this is another example of less "Level represents RP" and more "If you don't level to the amount I expect you don't have the social capital to spend to make your concept valid my eyes" Which is a different kettle of fish I feel from "Does level represent ability IC" Edit: Actually it might be a different perspective on how level represents/warrants IC behavior instead. Hrrrrm! RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Blue - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:54 PM)Sin Wrote: I don't know where Gaia online is bro, but here's my character. That 0 Botanist though, that's unforgivable. He's certainly not a god amongst the Greatloam Growery. EDIT: On the topic of the grand company gear though, does it mean that people will scowl if I use an alt that claims to be Ishgardian even though he isn't past 2.55 and as such has no access to Ishgard? Food for thought. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - McBeef™ - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:56 PM)Verad Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:53 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:44 PM)Verad Wrote: People are relying on this argument of investment, but I have to say that somebody who has played this game for a long time and has remained at a low level is showing a level of commitment that can't help but make me doff my hat towards them. I don't think people are arguing that. I think they're saying they take it as a measure of trust and investment into the game. People can play what they like, and I have no issues with high level people playing high or low, or vice versa. I agree there is no subjectively 'done well' or 'done poorly'. I accept strong characters that I like, same as you. However, as I've said, putting yourself under the power of a stronger character required a deal of trust, as once you've acknowledged them as being powerful, you're no longer in complete control of the scene. OOC Char level is just one of many metrics I use to make that decision. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Lilia Lia - 06-24-2015 There are a lot of OOC gameplay aspects of our characters that we turn a blind eye to. Most characters are not the WoL, obviously, but even moster are not actually White Mages, Black Mages, whatever other distinctive special traits you get. The fact that we spend time "offline" and aren't always around. The fact that our characters disappear into "duties" and fight monsters and whatnot. MOST characters are nowhere near as powerful as their OOC versions. The amount of gil is another good one. Can I play a poor character if I actually have 10 million gil laying around? How about a wealthy one if I'm below average by way of means? If I want to play a character who is a martial arts master, do I have to play them as a grasshopper until I get them to level 50 at which point I retcon them? And then I just RP having become a master of the martial arts in a matter of days? RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Gegenji - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:57 PM)Dogberry Wrote: This is a fantastic question. Supplementary question. Let's say they add enough vanity gear that you can make a level 1 character look like a Flame Sergeant. Preordering the next expansion gives you a set of dye-able Sergeant-looking gear that is all level 1. Said working mom does this and dresses up her level 1 swordswoman - wearing that gear and her starting sword. Would she be considered any less than if she had leveled to 20 and gotten the "proper" Flame Sergeant gear? Or, alternately, someone decides to play a Highlander refugee street-brawler who runs around in shorts and sandals looking for a good fight. He can easily looks the part he is trying to RP - a streetwise, underhanded fist-fighting thug - even at level one. He even goes so far as to portrays his Weathered Hora as being a set of knuckles he's been using for years and have worn down to the point that they look weathered - since he can't afford to replace them and they have sentimental value. Would he be considered "too fresh" to be taken as a weathered brawler with years of combat under his (possibly made of rope) belt? RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Verad - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 03:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I don't think people are arguing that. I think they're saying they take it as a measure of trust and investment into the game. People can play what they like, and I have no issues with high level people playing high or low, or vice versa. There are a number of people who have specifically said that they view level as more than a metric of investment - although I think it's a dubious method of determining investment, at best, for both the logic I've described, however absurd, and for the more practical and likely reasons others in the thread have mentioned. So yes, some people in the thread are arguing that. They're just not on this particular conversational track. But I disagree. You are in complete control of the scene at all times, regardless of character power. But you are in control in a way that people who value immersion find to be uncomfortable and refuse to acknowledge. You, as a player, always have the ability to walk away, ignore, and retcon as necessary, regardless of IC character power. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Faye - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:27 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:(06-24-2015, 01:36 PM)Faye Wrote: I'm of the unpopular opinion that I think in-game achievement has some bearing on your characters strength. It's just difficult to bump into a total stranger with a level five character with godlike strength!!!!11 and be okay with them beating my level 50+ decently geared character into the ground. There are plenty of exceptions, of course, like if someone can give me a good reason why their level five character is so much stronger than mine, or if they just legitimately outsmart/outdo my character, if it was an alt made for a storyline I'm participating in, etc. It blends together for me, honestly. Levels don't mean much to me, but levels can indicate how much time, energy, and effort someone has put into their character, be it for the sake of RP or otherwise, which is what I do care about. I think Jancis summarized it well a couple pages back. If I'm going to invest in another person's character, it helps if their player has done the same. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Dogberry - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 02:54 PM)Sin Wrote: This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum. If the character uses weathered hora to portray that their character is humble, and uses simple weapons, go ahead and use them. But if your character is using weathered hora because they literally can't equip anything else, then I don't feel your character can claim status as a legend. I interpret Level 1 as the point where your character devotes their life to a certain thing. They are the novice that has taken their first serious steps toward mastery. Everyone starts out making that decision. They will devote their life to mastery of the sword, or they're going to become a great fisherman. If you are skilled in something, and see a novice attempt the thing you're skilled in, you can immediately tell they are a novice. To make a character and role play mastery of a thing is truly godmoding. Emoting isn't just the be-all-end-all of RP for me, I guess. I consider my character something like a puppet, and characterization for puppetry goes a lot farther than sticking your hand in a sock and moving your hands. You can do what you like with your $15, but don't presume upon my $15. And to answer your question, I know nothing about you OOC, let alone, IC, so you could probably come up in any kind of gear you wanted, claiming to be anything at all, and my character could have no real reason to doubt you, even if you were claiming to be a bard and your character was actually a paladin or something. But, what's that thing where you use OOC knowledge to gain something over on another character called? I think it's called... metagaming? RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Sin - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 03:26 PM)Dogberry Wrote: If the character uses weathered hora to portray that their character is humble, and uses simple weapons, go ahead and use them. But if your character is using weathered hora because they literally can't equip anything else, then I don't feel your character can claim status as a legend. I interpret Level 1 as the point where your character devotes their life to a certain thing. They are the novice that has taken their first serious steps toward mastery. Everyone starts out making that decision. They will devote their life to mastery of the sword, or they're going to become a great fisherman. If you are skilled in something, and see a novice attempt the thing you're skilled in, you can immediately tell they are a novice. To make a character and role play mastery of a thing is truly godmoding. Emoting isn't just the be-all-end-all of RP for me, I guess. I consider my character something like a puppet, and characterization for puppetry goes a lot farther than sticking your hand in a sock and moving your hands. As to the first half of your post, I think we simply see roleplay differently. I see it as more pure storytelling and you see it as more of a hybrid of gameplay and storytelling. That's fine, live and let live. As to the second half of your post, I think somewhere along the line you must've misunderstood what I was saying, I'm assuming that by your play of words you're hinting at an instance of me metagaming. That is quite frankly impossible in a discussion wholly outside of the game and roleplay. I don't think you quite understand the concept. All I was trying to say is that I don't think people should take levels as a metric for nearly anything, but specially not IC power. But even if they do, then they should specially not go ahead and godmode that the character has flaws because you inspected them and they are low level. My point by displaying my own character is showing you the inverse. My character is (was) max level nearly everything, but I roleplayed him as an average swordsman with no other skills. The only way you could know this is through my emoting. The opposite should be true as well. That's my point, character's shouldn't assume people with all 50's are gods, and people with one character at level 20 is a novice. Either way is bad, because either way is metagaming, and you specifically have stated that you will hands down emote that your character sees flaws and can outright know the person is a novice. Not by judging their emotes, or making a value call based on their clothes IC'ly, but by inspecting their character and declaring because of that OOC knowledge that your character knows they're a novice. It is my opinion that that is an egregious mistake to make in a storytelling format. Specially if we're trying to be respectful of each other's characters. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Dogberry - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 03:13 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:57 PM)Dogberry Wrote: This is a fantastic question. Another fantastic question. I suppose this comes from my penchant for RPing actual game content. If I met this character in Ul'dah, and they came across as an authority figure, I would most definitely treat them as such. That ends when they leave the city and they are et by a 'bon. That would likely lead to snarky remarks about how they'll make anyone a Flame Sergeant these days oo-rah hooray Maelstrom. In the second instance, it's entirely possible to play a streetwise, underhanded fist-fighting thug at level 1. Characters lead lives before we create them, and if that's been his life so far, it's fine, people can spend years in mediocrity and obscurity before they make their major break. Level 1 for me represents the first break from mediocrity. The point at which your character first shows a spark for greatness, and it can happen at any point in someone's life. You can claim years of experience, but not mastery. I have years of experience playing the guitar, and I can shred reasonably well but I am by no means a master on the level of Yngwie Malmsteen. If I lived in an guitar-based MMO, I would say the moment I make a breakthrough in my playing from "hobbyist" to "amateur" would be the point at which I hit level 1. RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Dogberry - 06-24-2015 (06-24-2015, 03:38 PM)Sin Wrote: Not by judging their emotes, or making a value call based on their clothes IC'ly, but by inspecting their character and declaring because of that OOC knowledge that your character knows they're a novice. Can you show me where I said this? RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Melkire - 06-24-2015 ...when did being respectful of others' characters become a requirement or a communal expectation? I'm totally down for respecting others' rights to RP what they want, to spend their $15 and make use of it the way they want, etc. ... but to me, that doesn't translate into a necessity to respect someone's character. I'm going to laugh at the interdimensional traveler who is Pinkie Pie from MLP:FiM reincarnated as a Miqo'te and runs around town declaring such. I can't help that. That has to do with my preferences. I won't try to shut them down; it's their time, their money, and their fun. That, I can and will respect, and I'd hope everyone would feel the same. That said? I will quietly remove myself from the vicinity so that I can roleplay in a separate space from them so as to avoid clashing. Conversely, folks can feel free to make fun of my characters and laugh at them / diss them / etc. Hell, at times I roleplay a lore-breaking LOST-smoke-monster zombie. That's absolutely ridiculous and I don't expect anyone to respect that character... but it's there for folks who want to roleplay with it, and I won't force that character on anyone, nor do I ever expect others to be okay with it or accept it or spend time anywhere near it. EDIT: tl;dr, I respect players, I don't necessarily respect each and every character concept. That's just me, though, as a person. |