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Caspar · **05-03-2016, 04:42 PM**

I also started with monk and expanded from there. Rest assured, I didn't find that made things hard on me. In fact, until HW, basically all other classes felt "easy" to me in comparison. (Though the reality is they have their own tricks and quirks...)

I think just focusing on doing roulettes as tank and healer regularly will help you learn. Try to first just get the basics of keeping aggro and using cooldowns, before moving on to other things like being faster and doing more damage.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-03-2016, 04:50 PM**

(05-03-2016, 04:09 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 02:23 PM)McBeefÂ© Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 01:36 PM)Aaron Wrote: Tanking and healing require a specific mindset plus spacial awareness (both of which can be learned mind you)

However some people just can't deal with the cost of failure so they don't do it.
All classes require such a mindset, if you raid.

DPS have mechanics they need to do, and buffs/debuffs they need to put on players. The Machinist needs to watch everyone's mana and time disables. The Nin needs to cast goad for tp, etc etc.Â

I actually find tanking/healing easier than DPSing. I can't concentrate on a complicated rotation and still do raid mechanics. DPS is too hard for me!
Less than half of the population cares about raiding, So I don't factor that in.

Every class is balanced around raiding though.

So it's really the only thing that matters in regards to class strength and ease of use. Square Enix doesn't give a shit how they play at lower skill levels.

Edit: Which is unfortunate at times, because there are some Classes that really only shine at high skill levels, and SE seems not to care about making them more accessible.

Aaron · **05-03-2016, 06:17 PM**

(05-03-2016, 04:50 PM)McBeefÂ© Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 04:09 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 02:23 PM)McBeefÂ© Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 01:36 PM)Aaron Wrote: Tanking and healing require a specific mindset plus spacial awareness (both of which can be learned mind you)

However some people just can't deal with the cost of failure so they don't do it.
All classes require such a mindset, if you raid.

DPS have mechanics they need to do, and buffs/debuffs they need to put on players. The Machinist needs to watch everyone's mana and time disables. The Nin needs to cast goad for tp, etc etc.Â

I actually find tanking/healing easier than DPSing. I can't concentrate on a complicated rotation and still do raid mechanics. DPS is too hard for me!
Less than half of the population cares about raiding, So I don't factor that in.
Every class is balanced around raiding though.

So it's really the only thing that matters in regards to class strength and ease of use. Square Enix doesn't give a shit how they play at lower skill levels.

Edit: Which is unfortunate at times, because there are some Classes that really only shine at high skill levels, and SE seems not to care about making them more accessible.

You can be classed around raiding all you want, 90% of content doesn't require any spacial awareness really from dps. You just hit stuff till it dies or meet the dps check.

You can do an entire dungeon and not pop one goad or whatever too and be perfectly fine. I've witnessed it.

Edgar · **05-03-2016, 06:21 PM**

(05-03-2016, 06:17 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 04:50 PM)McBeefÂ© Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 04:09 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 02:23 PM)McBeefÂ© Wrote:
(05-03-2016, 01:36 PM)Aaron Wrote: Tanking and healing require a specific mindset plus spacial awareness (both of which can be learned mind you)

However some people just can't deal with the cost of failure so they don't do it.
All classes require such a mindset, if you raid.

DPS have mechanics they need to do, and buffs/debuffs they need to put on players. The Machinist needs to watch everyone's mana and time disables. The Nin needs to cast goad for tp, etc etc.Â

I actually find tanking/healing easier than DPSing. I can't concentrate on a complicated rotation and still do raid mechanics. DPS is too hard for me!
Less than half of the population cares about raiding, So I don't factor that in.
Every class is balanced around raiding though.

So it's really the only thing that matters in regards to class strength and ease of use. Square Enix doesn't give a shit how they play at lower skill levels.

Edit: Which is unfortunate at times, because there are some Classes that really only shine at high skill levels, and SE seems not to care about making them more accessible.
You can be classed around raiding all you want, 90% of content doesn't require any spacial awareness really from dps. You just hit stuff till it dies or meet the dps check.

You can do an entire dungeon and not pop one goad or whatever too and be perfectly fine. I've witnessed it.

Yes, we called that "The time before NIN existed."

S'imba · **05-03-2016, 07:13 PM**

Yes you will be fine, cause dungeons are designed to be more forgiving. But just because it's not required doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Dungeons are the best place to get muscle memory down on your job. It gives you more wiggle room to watch the rest of your team and see how they're functioning. You got a big bag of tools no matter what your class is. Even if your not an end game raider there's no reason why you shouldn't be using them. Unless you go into a duty with the mindset you're going to half ass it cause it's only a dungeon. We cry when Bards don't sing but there's a huge list of abilities other jobs have that could fall into the same category that no one will ever touch cause breaking out of their rotation to use one ability will hurt their dps.Â

I'm sure lots of people couldn't care less about how good they are in the dungeon. Which is all well and good, but if you don't at least try and learn ways to improve your performance then that's a problem.Â

Sorry about the rant, I just had to listen to a friend rage how everyone else sucked in our dungeon, yet he was doing the bare minimum for his job and refuses to take any advice on how he can do better.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-03-2016, 07:17 PM**

(05-03-2016, 07:13 PM)S Wrote: Yes you will be fine, cause dungeons are designed to be more forgiving. But just because it's not required doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Dungeons are the best place to get muscle memory down on your job. It gives you more wiggle room to watch the rest of your team and see how they're functioning. You got a big bag of tools no matter what your class is. Even if your not an end game raider there's no reason why you shouldn't be using them. Unless you go into a duty with the mindset you're going to half ass it cause it's only a dungeon. We cry when Bards don't sing but there's a huge list of abilities other jobs have that could fall into the same category that no one will ever touch cause breaking out of their rotation to use one ability will hurt their dps.Â

I'm sure lots of people couldn't care less about how good they are in the dungeon. Which is all well and good, but if you don't at least try and learn ways to improve your performance then that's a problem.Â

Sorry about the rant, I just had to listen to a friend rage how everyone else sucked in our dungeon, yet he was doing the bare minimum for his job and refuses to take any advice on how he can do better.

Yeah I think everyone should challenge themselves.

It's fun to try to get dungeons done quickly, better it takes 20 minutes than 30 or 40.Â

Just because you can make it through a dungeon as DPS with facerolls, doesn't mean you should. Same thing with healers, try to DPS as much as you can, find where your limits are.

Valence · **05-04-2016, 04:03 AM**

That's usually the difference between a normal player (with mediocre but okay-ish DPS and only doing that), a good player (with good DPS and optimal rotation but not using supports or interrupts much unless they do damage), and a great player (good DPS and optimal rotation accomodating the use of support skills).

Every time I see the latter, which is rare, I immediately comm, even if the tank and heal did great. Like, you know, a MCH or BRD using regens, ninja using goad (those are so rare...), that kind of things. Even when the guy is not great for DPS, the simple care to use those skills is so much appreciated at times...

Aaron · **05-04-2016, 09:01 AM**

(05-03-2016, 07:13 PM)S Wrote: Yes you will be fine, cause dungeons are designed to be more forgiving. But just because it's not required doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Dungeons are the best place to get muscle memory down on your job. It gives you more wiggle room to watch the rest of your team and see how they're functioning. You got a big bag of tools no matter what your class is. Even if your not an end game raider there's no reason why you shouldn't be using them. Unless you go into a duty with the mindset you're going to half ass it cause it's only a dungeon. We cry when Bards don't sing but there's a huge list of abilities other jobs have that could fall into the same category that no one will ever touch cause breaking out of their rotation to use one ability will hurt their dps.Â

I'm sure lots of people couldn't care less about how good they are in the dungeon. Which is all well and good, but if you don't at least try and learn ways to improve your performance then that's a problem.Â

Sorry about the rant, I just had to listen to a friend rage how everyone else sucked in our dungeon, yet he was doing the bare minimum for his job and refuses to take any advice on how he can do better.

If it's not required it also means I don't have to do it either.

It goes both ways. Me for example, when it's early in the morning and I'm doing my expert as a tank half the time I don't use stuff like dark dance or another victim, because I don't feel like doing all that shit. Granted there's plenty times where I do use everything to optimal potential but that's only when I'm awake and it's not me auto tanking because lolitstwosomethinginthemorning. Regardless My hp never drops to low levels and the rest of the group never complains because I don't cast salted earth or something. The only reason you even need to do half of those things in regular content is if your party is Just bad. You're not losing anything by it. Yet if people are in a iffy mood an feel like only doing the bare minimum and they DONT complain about anyone else OR get yelled at, why would you care what they did?

Not everyone plays a class to be the best at it, I know people who play ninja solely because they like the animations and they still do decent enough not to get yelled at. As long as stuff dies and everyone lives in average content nobody should care if a BRD didn't sing or something. And if they do? Then they need to find something better to do than trying to criticize what people do when said person didn't ask for their help.

Let bygones be bygones as they say. If a person doesn't ask for your help with playing their class and they aren't causing the party to die or something blatantly crippling, don't worry about what they're doing and just focus on you.

Warren Castille · **05-04-2016, 09:25 AM**

Most of those skills and abilities become muscle memory after you're set in the groove, though. One could argue that if it's taking brainpower to manually go about using them, it's a sign you're maybe not as good as you think you are. This is why cutting edge raiders are able to maintain hilariously high DPS numbers while also handling multiple mechanics at the same time, while Greg Ninja doesn't bother goading anyone even when the DRG runs their TP out.

At the end of the day, the grumpiness still comes from playing with people who don't know how to play, or worse, are actively choosing not to because fuck everyone else's time. Don't flag for a dungeon if you're not going to work through it.

Aaron · **05-04-2016, 09:33 AM**

Brainpower can bypass muscle memory, especially if you're using a controller where you have to hold the trigger button to switch hotbars and THEN pick a action.

Regardless, I know for fact as long as I clear a dungeon smoothly without wipes I couldn't give less of a fuck if the healer afked and let eos do all the work and the dps were eating a sandwich while rotating. These dungeon don't require the skill of a pro raider to do. They can be cleared in under thirty minutes with or without max output.

Warren Castille · **05-04-2016, 09:36 AM**

Minor inconveniences can pile up, though. Maybe I'm just crankier than some/most about this, but if we have the means to do something in 20 minutes or 30 minutes, I'm going to take 20 as often as I can. I get breezing through a dungeon and all, but it feels like willful gimping to not try.

Imagine if you and your DPS were on fire, and you had to wait after every single pull because the tank wanted to stoneskin the entire party before pulling more. That's what it feels like as a tank when your DPS won't use cooldowns or your healer does the bare minimum. Sure, we're clearing it, but why are you making this take longer than it has to?

Aaron · **05-04-2016, 09:44 AM**

I guess it comes down to patience, or opportunity. If I was waiting on a tank to stoneskin everybody in stead of twiddling my thumbs I'd probably be answering a text on my phone or eating another spoonful of cereal.

Point I was making is if there's nothing too debilitating about what another job players doing, who's breath and time do you think you'd be wasting more of, yours with giving them advice they may or may not care to hear which could easily devolve into "Fuck you bitch" insults, or just letting it slide because you're clearing at a reasonable pace?

I'd choose the latter, I don't offer anyone advice or criticism unless they ask for it.

Caspar · **05-04-2016, 09:52 AM**

I think it's easier to do that if you don't play jobs other than your own. I play basically every job, some more than others, so the odds are good I will encounter a player who is using one I understand. For that reason, I can't help but notice the Monk who doesn't use Dragon Kick ever, even on bosses.

Sure there's something to be said of not communicating like a jerk, but sometimes they truly are in the dark and casually mentioning it can smooth out a run significantly.Â

Also I don't roulette to play with my cellphone. I'd rather go quickly.

Warren Castille · **05-04-2016, 09:53 AM**

Nah, I agree with you. It's definitely a matter of patience (or just time-consumed). Chewing someone out in a dungeon is fairly uncouth and unless someone's being so horrible it causes wipes there's arguably no point to doing it.

That's what this thread is for, though. Making loud noises about annoyances and trying to understand why someone would choose not to use mudras or positioning or songs or drones or dots or cleric stance or holy or whatever.

The reason is usually one of two things: Ignorance, which is sometimes excusable, or laziness. In my book that shit doesn't fly when you purposefully flag for content you don't feel like doing, and then sandbag through it. Just don't flag. One person's time in a group is not more valuable than anyone else's, and expecting your party members to give a fuck isn't that strange.

Aaron · **05-04-2016, 09:55 AM**

Better a lazy one than a bad one.

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