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Spethah · **05-15-2015, 06:51 PM**

Moderator Note:
These types of concerns are best shared through the report function and not posted in topic itself.

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"I understand all the rules of the legit talk thread, and will obey them. If I am found to have broken any of the rules, I will refrain from posting in the thread for a week. I understand that the purpose of this thread is to try and maintain discussion in good faith"

Above, while it's acting as my forced disclaimer, is totally pointless.Â

First, some people tend to post images and then discuss as a way of setting tone. Tone is hard to read in writing unless it's involve specific wording, but images don't have that issue. There are a few people that just post an image and leave it at that and it is annoying, but don't bunch the two together.Â

Second, the rules can be viewed as backseat moderation and that's against forum rules. "If you do a 'bad', you are forced to not talk here for a week". You cannot force anyone to do without moderation approval. Now don't take this as me going "I WILL DO WHAT I WANT BEEECH", but rather think of it on the other side. You have no right to determine what people should and shouldn't do unless it's for a good purpose and sadly I'm just not seeing that good purpose.Â

Third, directly or indirectly calling out on someone leads to viewful grouping...or in layman's terms "witch hunting". Don't be Tumblr, please. If you have an issue with a person or a group of people, speak with them privately on the matter and discuss in a relatively calm fashion. If you need assistance, speak to people you trust won't make a nuclear wreck of the situation because nothing is worse than two groups of people fighting at each other. Not only does it ruin the whole point of this community (apparentlyÂ you're meant to be welcoming, watching fights and witch hunting is not welcoming) but that single rule is in violation of the forum guidelines anyway.Â

If we were to add everything up, the disclaimer is basically saying "Yo fuck the rules that are in place.". Basically, not literally. We're talking a general image here, not what I or other people might think. Everyone has difference views, the only thing I can do is think of what the general plain-ass doo-dah of a human being would do or think.

Debates will always turn into fire fights if not mediated by someone, it's the natural human cycle of things. There's pretty much nothing you can do about it without making a fire fight. And now...

[Image: giphy.gif]

...I purposefully abuse these rules so I can disrupt discussion via not being able to post so I can promote my point of "gawd just talk privately". It's ironic no? But hey, I don't want mods on my fabulous butt cheeks. I follow forum rules first, then this.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-15-2015, 06:54 PM**

Hello, please don't post in this thread for a week. You wouldn't go into a closed IC thread and post Gifs, would you? So please give the same respect towards this.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-15-2015, 07:13 PM**

(05-15-2015, 06:26 PM)Desu Nee Wrote: I feel we already know some people, and obviously these people know themselves. Some people just have a short fuse, or passionate on the speech, or whatever excuse. Ultimately, we can't really control what people will do, unless there's an according punishment because we aren't the ones typing on their keyboard.

What I do believe, is that constantly making threads about it won't help.

So is it your opinion that nothing can be done on the matter? Other than hope people realize on their own that they should be better?

I would argue with that. Some communities have made some strides in combating such behavior online. Just as an example, Riot Games has famously done a lot of work with the LoL community, which has made some significant strides. They talk about their efforts here.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/19126...egends.php

K'nahli · **05-15-2015, 07:16 PM**

I'll await feedback on the matter of the topic's legitimacy from the other moderators but personally I see no issue with the topic itself, and so it will remain open.

However, just because you are of the impression that the topic would not be permitted does not give anyone the right to intentionally derail or criticise it's presence. Report the thread and be done with it. Making claims about what is allowed and what isn't is more in line with the term backseat moderating if I recall correctly - not making rules within the topic itself. This has been allowed in the past, even outside of RP threads, and I do not see any reason for it to be discouraged so long as it has purpose and meaning.

Until further notice, please keep things civil and on-topic and abide by the requested instructions.

Edit:
For clarity, the following two rules...

(05-15-2015, 12:34 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: 1) You can only talk about people DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY who have posted in this thread. Posting in this thread puts you under the purview of the legit talk thread.

3) You can say whatever you want that does not violate the overall rules of the website. If you think I'm being a fucking idiot for thinking how I do, I'd rather just hear it.

...do not condone flaming or any other form of negative discourse. Natalie has explicitly stated that no post should step outside of the general forum rules while also requesting that no-one be indirectly referenced to from outside of the topic. People who choose to post open themselves up for discussion which may reference particular behaviours. This is a grey area but so long as it is kept civil them the topic itself may be permitted.

Confirmation from other moderators will decide the outcome of the topic.

Regardless, the topic will be watched closely so compose your posts carefully even with all of that being said.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-15-2015, 08:04 PM**

I think that the reaction to this thread proves that this thread has a purpose.

There are enough cynical feelings in this community, that the assumption by some is that such a thread /MUST/ be something negative. I don't think it has to be.

This threat is not for flame wars, it is not for causing drama, and it is not for e-points. It is to discuss issues that otherwise spiral out into flame wars and locked threads. It is my hope that the bans on callouts/macros/emptyposts and the 30 minute cool off period will let us do that.

It is something of an experiment, I'll admit. However so far it seems to be working reasonably well. How well it continues to work depends on how the community continues to interact with it.

DoomsdayClock · **05-15-2015, 11:52 PM**

I understand all the rules of the legit talk thread, and will obey them. If I am found to have broken any of the rules, I will refrain from posting in the thread for a week. I understand that the purpose of this thread is to try and maintain discussion in good faith

It took me most of the day to decide whether or not I should actually post in this thread. For obvious or less obvious reasons that is. But the more I considered it, the more I reflected over the months I've spent watching the boards, and watching the in game interactions....which compelled me to feel I'd like to speak on the matter of my findings, for whatever worth there is to them.

I DO think a thread like this can help, as long as it's watched over and the same behaviors that we are so concerned about don't flare up here. Understanding and communication will always be key.

I do feel the community has changed since I first started in the game. I do see a very different energy about, and it's concerning for certain. There is a larger focus on negativity. There is a greater magnification on a lot of ideas that tend to keep the tone at a low. There is a large sense of entitlement, coupled with being offended, slighted, or otherwise wronged. More often than not a thread is derailed with venom, or excuses and reasons why things won't work, than solutions and questions on how things CAN. That said, these are things I can't solve. That no one individual or conversation can either.

For one there are alot of new faces all over the place. And a lot of frustration spilling out at concepts like the old heads being an issue, or not having time for them. Of walled off groups that they just can't get into...There is also the stigma of how much drama unfolds on other social media sites that also sweeps into the community. People are more ready now, to raise torches and swarm than I've ever seen before. I don't remember the prevalence of either when I began, but with the influx of new and returning players and the like spilling in, I think the tone is different now, and the new people coming in are taking that as just how things are here. That the expectation becomes a negative environment whether they want that or not, which honestly saddens me.

There has to be a general turning down of the volume level on the griping and anger. On the tension and bad things, and more of a push towards the positive that foster growth as an actual community. No member here will ever be able to build it on their own, and if we all exist together, we must coexist in a fashion that promotes growth.
It's all of our stories, all happening in tandem in the same setting at the same time. I for one have never blocked out a player for their character, their lore, or their Rp ability. Every interaction, every time I meet a new person it's adding another block to the foundation of what is my Rp world. In that regard I remain open to every chance, I cherish each opportunity and will always root for the folks who are having trouble fitting in. People can and will say whatever they please about me, but I've always made the point to involve as many people as I can in the storylines I do, and the sense of a living, organic world that grew out of that is something I find sorely lacking the current environment.

Every single person here who brings forth their creativity into a new life in our communal world is important. We ALL pay the price of admission to this setting each month, and we are all equal. That is the only way this can be, the only way it can work. The walls have to be acknowledge as perceived, or torn down if they do exist at all. We each have to be kind to ourselves, and more so to those around us.
That's all I've got. Tonberry

Hyrist · **05-16-2015, 09:16 AM**

(05-15-2015, 06:33 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I think this is an aftereffect of the general mood people are speaking of.

I personally think you should get yourself involved in any discussion in which you think you might have something useful to say, or you just want your opinion to be known.

As for the RP bit, that's a thing I struggle with myself. Its why I currently don't really have a wiki, because I feel like it kills some of the mystery when I RP with people. Its better that they are curious as a player and as a character.

Of course you have to give them something... or they won't be interested enough to start asking questions. I have a few idea for threads helping people drop mysterious details so that other people can meet as such. I think there was a plot hooks thread in the past as well.

Â I will say that my FC leader and others tend to regard the RPC at arms length for its tendency to turn over itself over matters that ultimately do not pan out in actual RP or Gameplay. That in their ideal to avoid from, rather than deal with, catching RP issues such as Lorebending vs Loremongering and using this and similar issues as a means to judge or value one another.

See we in DE engage that positively. If someone comes up with an idea for a plot or character angle we feel bends the lore too far (Or conversely tries to stick too hard on the lore to the point of rubbing raw with others.) Well calmly talk with them about where we tend to draw the line on things and what's flexible, and then we work with and build on that. The majority of what we have is pretty low-key anyways as far as individual characters go.

I often don't understand why such acceptance can't be garnered here, if that is indeed part of the pressure going on. Well, perhaps I misspeak when I say I don't understand. I understand the difficulties in that ,but often I feel we forget ourselves too much when we wish to speak and justify our own opinion. Â Diverse and even opposing opinions can and do coexist, but often when discussed in forums we feel as if one or the other opinion must prevail. For me I feel the effort is better spent bridging the gap and brainstorming more practical solutions such as "How can we get these two styles and standards to co-exist while maintaining a diverse and interlinked RP world?" That's often the harder, and also more worthwhile question to ask, rather than spending time poking holes in someone else's argument.

As far as RP details on Wiki. I'm the opposite to your perspective. I want to share ,but I have difficulty on the time it takes for me to write an artistic depiction in brief. I want someone to be able to read up on the history of the character, and then, doing so, become invested in that character and desire to participate in some manner. So long as they can separate their knowledge to their character's knowledge, then we're golden. Discovery through roleplay is great as well.

Again, my only problem is getting the time and appropriate diction down.

Kellach Woods · **05-16-2015, 12:49 PM**

Quote:I understand all the rules of the legit talk thread, and will obey them. If I am found to have broken any of the rules, I will refrain from posting in the thread for a week. I understand that the purpose of this thread is to try and maintain discussion in good faith

(05-15-2015, 12:34 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: The first question I will ask is:
What do you think of this thread? Do you agree with what I think has happened in the RPC community? Was the RPC community always this way?

What do I think of this thread? I think it'll be locked at around... page 6. Page 7 if we're lucky. Already, you could see people sniping at each other. I also do not believe that anyone using the term hugbox unironically is actually coming into a discussion with the intent of actually being fair to all positions. This isn't just for you Natalie because there's a couple of other peeps who I don't know if they've posted in this thread or no that've used it in the past. It's extremely reductive of what these threads do.

You see them as "hugboxes", I see 'em as necessary threads to counterbalance the other threads. I'll give you an example : The compliment thread - It's nice to be complimented, and I'd dare say there ain't a lot of that going on elsewhere. Sure we have the Kudos! thread, but how many go on there and take the time to actually give them out? Not a lot. That you have to give out a compliment to receive one is a good idea that forces people to actually give before they can receive. More people have interacted with me with that thread than they have from me actually posting good content.

Has the community changed? As someone who never really fully integrated in it (you might think differently - but post count only means I post a lot. If you take a look at any of the IC threads I have had I've not really interacted much because they're either journal threads or the Bulletin Board) I'm pretty sure nothing changed, just that the level of snark went extremely high because we all got used to the previous level of snark. Like we were actively looking for negative reactions and to piss people off just to prove our words have an effect. Then we turn around and disparage people for being affected by "mere words" when, let's be honest here, we SPECIFICALLY worded the posts for that purpose. So when people stopped reacting we started piling on more of it until hey everyone's passively-aggressively sniping at each other for shit that happened 3 threads past on the same subject.

But whatever you know, RPers gonna RP and I'd be hard pressed to find a community where that shit didn't happen.

Verad · **05-16-2015, 05:51 PM**

I understand all the rules of the legit talk thread, and will obey them. If I am found to have broken any of the rules, I will refrain from posting in the thread for a week. I understand that the purpose of this thread is to try and maintain discussion in good faith

Nat, could you provide a clear and concrete example of what you consider to be "unsanitized" good-faith discussion? It doesn't have to be something from the RPC itself, but I'm hesitant to say we've fallen from some Platonic model of what the community "should be" without knowing what the "should be" was or if it ever existed at some point.

Regarding the rest of the topic, I have spoken in the past about why I have engaged in hostilities. I don't feel I need to go into that a second time. I can, however, explain why I avoid threads which appear to exist purely for the purpose of promoting positivity: many times, they feel false.

Kellach (and I name him only because I am still grappling with nesting quotations) explained why he prefers the Compliment thread over, say, the Kudos thread. I've reviewed both. I've posted in the Kudos thread, but never in the Compliment thread. The material in the Kudos thread feels more earned, more genuine, and usually comes from posting good content. Those in the compliment thread feel very superficial - in the past ten pages of that thread, the overwhelming theme of them, with some variation, is "X is a good person." I don't really need to hear that. I'd rather hear "X posted good content for X, Y, and Z reasons."

I agree with Kellach that they're necessary. I don't agree that they're necessary as a counterbalance. Rather, I think they're important because they highlight the fact that this is notÂ a single community. Rather, it is multiple separate communities bashing against each other on the same website, confusing themselves into believing they are a contiguous group. I will likely never interact with the majority of the posters in the Compliments thread in roleplay, especially those who make a point of posting regularly, because we expect different things out of the website in terms of content and purpose.

So what you see, Nat, as aÂ sanitizingÂ and a splitting of the community when it comes to discussions, I see as peopleÂ realizing that there isn't - can't be - a single community. People are still fighting to believe it is, hence "why have people gotten so mean/so relentlessly positive, why can't things go back to how they were." It's wiser to accept that it can't be so. Acknowledge the difference, recognize posters who fall outside your conception of what the website's community "ought to be," and steer clear.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-16-2015, 08:05 PM**

Forgive multiple replies, I feel it will make more sense that way though.

(05-15-2015, 11:52 PM)DoomsdayClock Wrote: There is a large sense of entitlement, coupled with being offended, slighted, or otherwise wronged. More often than not a thread is derailed with venom, or excuses and reasons why things won't work, than solutions and questions on how things CAN. That said, these are things I can't solve. That no one individual or conversation can either.

This is a thing I have been noticing as well. Before there were conversations that got out of hand, and threads that were closed because of it. (Housing even required a ban on housing threads). However I feel people were legitimately angry about it, and there were a lot of high strung feelings.

Too often I think in recent arguments, those who do not like either the discussions or opinions taking place simply just try to have the thread obliterated. Again, the reaction to this thread is a good example. There is no requirement to read this thread, or to speak in it. There is even a rule against calling people out. So if you don't post in it, you'll never even be spoken of.

However for some, just the existence of a thread they do not like is offensive. It happens so often though, and it has become so predictable, that the community can tell when it is happening. Whenever you see a thread with 30 people watching it, its almost never because they all have something relevant to say and contribute. Generally we're all spectators at the bullfight, waiting for the matador to get gored.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-16-2015, 08:08 PM**

(05-15-2015, 12:34 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: The first question I will ask is:
What do you think of this thread? Do you agree with what I think has happened in the RPC community? Was the RPC community always this way?

What do I think of this thread? I think it'll be locked at around... page 6. Page 7 if we're lucky. Already, you could see people sniping at each other.
[/quote]

I'm actually very curious about this. Where do you think people are sniping at each other? There have been a few posts that have either ignored the rules of the thread or the forum rules, so I've ignored them.

I think discussion has been relatively reasonable. I worry that things have been so toxic lately that disagreement and discussion are assumed to be hostile.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-16-2015, 08:29 PM**

Quote:Nat, could you provide a clear and concrete example of what you consider to be "unsanitized" good-faith discussion? It doesn't have to be something from the RPC itself, but I'm hesitant to say we've fallen from some Platonic model of what the community "should be" without knowing what the "should be" was or if it ever existed at some point.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=7486
I feel like this was a reasonable and honest discussion about a topic that could have very easily exploded. Now some threads did explode back then, it is true. Some threads can talk about sensitive topics now with no problems. It seems to be an issue of trends rather than absolutes.

Quote:Regarding the rest of the topic, I have spoken in the past about why I have engaged in hostilities. I don't feel I need to go into that a second time. I can, however, explain why I avoid threads which appear to exist purely for the purpose of promoting positivity: many times, they feel false.

Kellach (and I name him only because I am still grappling with nesting quotations) explained why he prefers the Compliment thread over, say, the Kudos thread. I've reviewed both. I've posted in the Kudos thread, but never in the Compliment thread. The material in the Kudos thread feels more earned, more genuine, and usually comes from posting good content. Those in the compliment thread feel very superficial - in the past ten pages of that thread, the overwhelming theme of them, with some variation, is "X is a good person." I don't really need to hear that. I'd rather hear "X posted good content for X, Y, and Z reasons."

I agree with Kellach that they're necessary. I don't agree that they're necessary as a counterbalance. Rather, I think they're important because they highlight the fact that this is notÂ a single community. Rather, it is multiple separate communities bashing against each other on the same website, confusing themselves into believing they are a contiguous group. I will likely never interact with the majority of the posters in the Compliments thread in roleplay, especially those who make a point of posting regularly, because we expect different things out of the website in terms of content and purpose.

So what you see, Nat, as aÂ sanitizingÂ and a splitting of the community when it comes to discussions, I see as peopleÂ realizing that there isn't - can't be - a single community. People are still fighting to believe it is, hence "why have people gotten so mean/so relentlessly positive, why can't things go back to how they were." It's wiser to accept that it can't be so. Acknowledge the difference, recognize posters who fall outside your conception of what the website's community "ought to be," and steer clear.

Interesting, I don't ever thing I've quite thought of it that way. I agree about the relentlessly positive threads (I suppose that is a far more neutral term than hug box). To me there is no point in praise and compliments for their own sake. However I do not begrudge people for making them. If that is what makes people happy then they are welcome to it.

Also as you say, there are groups of people who do not care about that, and come to the RPC for different reasons.

However how then do you fix the fact that we are, if two communities, we are two communities on adjacent seats on a long distance flight. We have one website and one set of forums, and I for one have no desire for the community to fragment. If one group of people thinks threads should avoid conflict and negativity, and the other thinks it is ok if the gloves come off. How do we prevent both sides from having a shitty time?

It's a slightly rhetorical question, because I made this thread to both discuss and experiment if different rules could help on certain threads.

There are however deeper issues that the two group theory unmasks. Issues that also cause problems in the community, such as the different groups and their different ideas of RP excluding people who believe otherwise. Though I don't think there are really /any/ solutions to that.

Kellach Woods · **05-16-2015, 09:28 PM**

(05-16-2015, 05:51 PM)Verad Wrote: Kellach (and I name him only because I am still grappling with nesting quotations) explained why he prefers the Compliment thread over, say, the Kudos thread. I've reviewed both. I've posted in the Kudos thread, but never in the Compliment thread. The material in the Kudos thread feels more earned, more genuine, and usually comes from posting good content. Those in the compliment thread feel very superficial - in the past ten pages of that thread, the overwhelming theme of them, with some variation, is "X is a good person." I don't really need to hear that. I'd rather hear "X posted good content for X, Y, and Z reasons."

I don't disagree with that assessment of it being more earned on one thread over the other. Earned has nothing to do with the compliment thread more so that you get what you give. The Kudos thread requires that the person who wishes to give you thanks actually knows of the thread and decides to actually post in it. Which, other than a few people, barely anyone does. I've done it once when I thought it appropriate, but most of the time I'll thank people in person rather than use the forums because most of the peeps I know don't care much for actual interactions on the forums. Never cared for why, they got their reasons.

So not for nothing but the Kudos thread can be read as pretty much a circlejerk same as the Compliments thread, except in my eyes the latter is easier to access than the former because the requirements are far less stringent and they are not dependent on other people.

I can also understand why they feel false - a lot of them have to do with the person posting not really knowing the person they have to say something good about. I, however, believe that's still a fairly good perspective to have if you force yourself to post for someone you've had a disagreement with. It humanizes the other person, which is something I've not seen with people mentioning entitlement.

(05-16-2015, 05:51 PM)Verad Wrote: I agree with Kellach that they're necessary. I don't agree that they're necessary as a counterbalance. Rather, I think they're important because they highlight the fact that this is notÂ a single community. Rather, it is multiple separate communities bashing against each other on the same website, confusing themselves into believing they are a contiguous group. I will likely never interact with the majority of the posters in the Compliments thread in roleplay, especially those who make a point of posting regularly, because we expect different things out of the website in terms of content and purpose.

I don't see how one thread means the community's splintered. The Compliments thread is just a random thread in an off-topic forum. I wouldn't be quick to dismiss everyone in there unless you decided to take your peddlin' ways exclusively out of the actual FFXIV game. Saying that one thread means the people posting in there would not use the website in the same way you or anyone else does is dishonest. I use the website same as most, I just post in a positive thread from time to time, either for humor or to move the thread along.

As for the rest, I use RP discussion to discuss RP, I use FFXIV discussion to discuss FFXIV, Character Development to develop my characters, I rarely post Bulletin Board stuff IC or do letters anymore if people want to read that. I don't see how this usage is any different than any other user on the website with the exception that I don't expressively RP on the website, saving that for in-game.

Kellach Woods · **05-16-2015, 09:49 PM**

(05-16-2015, 08:08 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I'm actually very curious about this. Where do you think people are sniping at each other? There have been a few posts that have either ignored the rules of the thread or the forum rules, so I've ignored them.

I think discussion has been relatively reasonable. I worry that things have been so toxic lately that disagreement and discussion are assumed to be hostile.

There's the two posters you "banned" for a week from posting in here, but unless you got mod powers to actually prevent that from happening it'll probably happen again. I'm not saying discussion hasn't been reasonable, nor that it won't be in the future. Just the natural way things have been happening here lately, I don't think it'll last longer than that - Thread is already under moderation watch, and it only really needs an errant firebrand to explode. Something we have in excess here if we're to look at locked topic history throughout the past few months.

I want to give this thread a chance really, but already we're re-treading the same subjects - community is splintered, nobody wants to actually interact with one another, positive vs. negative posting, etc. At one point you have to wonder how much we actually care about these subjects to do something about them, rather than just talk endlessly about them. Personally, I don't believe the community is splintered to such a point that you can fit them in tiny little boxes, and I'm starting to actually think that all of this endless talk is sorely because people aren't giving others enough credit.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-18-2015, 01:05 PM**

(05-16-2015, 09:49 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(05-16-2015, 08:08 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I'm actually very curious about this. Where do you think people are sniping at each other? There have been a few posts that have either ignored the rules of the thread or the forum rules, so I've ignored them.

I think discussion has been relatively reasonable. I worry that things have been so toxic lately that disagreement and discussion are assumed to be hostile.

There's the two posters you "banned" for a week from posting in here, but unless you got mod powers to actually prevent that from happening it'll probably happen again. I'm not saying discussion hasn't been reasonable, nor that it won't be in the future. Just the natural way things have been happening here lately, I don't think it'll last longer than that - Thread is already under moderation watch, and it only really needs an errant firebrand to explode. Something we have in excess here if we're to look at locked topic history throughout the past few months.

I want to give this thread a chance really, but already we're re-treading the same subjects - community is splintered, nobody wants to actually interact with one another, positive vs. negative posting, etc. At one point you have to wonder how much we actually care about these subjects to do something about them, rather than just talk endlessly about them. Personally, I don't believe the community is splintered to such a point that you can fit them in tiny little boxes, and I'm starting to actually think that all of this endless talk is sorely because people aren't giving others enough credit.

I didn't actually ban them, I just asked them to keep out unless they're were planning on following the rules. I can't actually stop them from posting, obviously.

I don't think the thread will explode though, but not because everyone is calm. I just think people are more interested about complaining than changing things. I can't say I'm not guilty of this as well, as you say.

I feel like things /have/ been calmer though in the last week or so. Perhaps people have been making decisions to be more geniuine? Or maybe we just haven't had the proper thread for everyone to explode on.

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