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Aaron · **09-28-2016, 11:21 PM**

(09-28-2016, 11:13 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 10:38 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 10:06 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 08:50 PM)Aaron Wrote: If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,

Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.

You make it sound like wanting to stay within the bounds of the lore is a bad thing. I never got why people felt the need to tie their characters to important lore figures or give them powers on par with people/jobs that are supposed to be legends or extremely rare.

It's safer and more interesting to play something original that fits the established lore than try to find ways to bend it to justify your character having X ability.
No I'm talking about those people who don't actually care about the person's characters but only initiate roleplay with a person just to question them about why they can do X or Y and hope they find something to point out.

They happen more often than you think. I'm just pointing out if he goes for the Alexander idea he will encounter them.

I've never seen this happen, not even once. Now if you're including anyone whose character doesn't immediately buy into the fact that your character can do things that they really shouldn't be able to in the confines of the lore, that's entirely different and something you need to get used to.

You don't see it probably because the person doing it to you obviously isn't going to give hints that's what they're doing. I only know it happens because people have flat out acknowledged they've done it before. It'd ruin the entire point if just anyone knew they were doing it.

There's a difference between legit having an interest in the justification to mayhap help said person, and doing it for shits and giggles to tell your other friends

Gegenji · **09-28-2016, 11:33 PM**

(09-28-2016, 10:52 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: 1) Be aware Alexander existed in the first place. (Obviously)
2) Have sufficient Summoning knowledge to know of Trance. (Again, obviously)
3) Have the ability to identify and sift through "Alexander" tainted aether.

Oddly enough, those aren't really hefty requirements if you think about it.

#1: Anyone who has been through the Hinterlands has probably seen the kinda-really-big robot in a shield taking up a large portion of the Thaliak River. Gogon himself has been way back when Alex was still in its first stages - on an IC delve of Gubal Library. Several others have done similar delves, or even just visited Idyllshire... so it's not without reason that they might've seen the Primal and gone "Well, what's all this then?"

#2: A bit trickier, but I mentioned that there's a lot of Trancing going on at the Runestone. Taking any of that in character, the reasons for how said people gained the traits, would provide knowledge of Trancing. That notwithstanding, there's enough character cleaving more closely to the events of the SMN quest line that interacting with a couple of them could again provide the necessary knowledge. Gogon, for example, is a hoarder of knowledge and has a particular interest in Arcanima since it's the one type of magic he can do. He has had at least three people provide him information on Trancing - and two give a demonstration (Bahamut and Ramuh respectively) - even before witnessing those who do it all the time at the Runestone.

#3: This one is a good sticking point, though. Recognizing the aether - especially if the time warping diffuses it across all of Hydaelyn (or even the universe - you're changing TIME, after all) - could be horrendously difficult. It could be spread so thin that it's effectively nonexistent. Identifying it and taking in enough of it to allow for the manifestation of an Egi or for Tracing would likely be nigh impossible... if you weren't at ground zero. I would postulate that the tainted aether would be at its thickest and most identifiable near the site of the time flux. So, if you were near the Thaliak River when the time loop was fulfilled... you're probably in a good spot to take in that tainted aether. Otherwise the only other time you could submerse yourself in it is during the battles inside Alexander itself.

Kellach Woods · **09-28-2016, 11:38 PM**

Honestly that's why I wrote them out as pre-reqs. Doesn't mean you'll get to do it if you do.
But again, I'm expecting all that speculation goes out the window once second xpac hits.

Edgar · **09-28-2016, 11:42 PM**

(09-28-2016, 11:13 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 10:38 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 10:06 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 08:50 PM)Aaron Wrote: If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,

Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.

You make it sound like wanting to stay within the bounds of the lore is a bad thing. I never got why people felt the need to tie their characters to important lore figures or give them powers on par with people/jobs that are supposed to be legends or extremely rare.

It's safer and more interesting to play something original that fits the established lore than try to find ways to bend it to justify your character having X ability.
No I'm talking about those people who don't actually care about the person's characters but only initiate roleplay with a person just to question them about why they can do X or Y and hope they find something to point out.

They happen more often than you think. I'm just pointing out if he goes for the Alexander idea he will encounter them.

I've never seen this happen, not even once. Now if you're including anyone whose character doesn't immediately buy into the fact that your character can do things that they really shouldn't be able to in the confines of the lore, that's entirely different and something you need to get used to.

I've seen it happen. Hell, its happened to me, my friends, and their friends.

Consider yourself lucky, because those kinds of people are annoying as hell to deal with, and they do not like to let up.

Gegenji · **09-28-2016, 11:45 PM**

Completely understandable, and at its core... a large portion of this discussion is trying to at least reasonably explain the whole idea in a way that seems reasonable to others - and, to some degree, convincing myself. Heck, my responses to your pre-reqs were basically my way of making excuses for why Gogon "should" be able do it at their core. Of course, ultimately that "do what you think is fun" bit holds quite true... but it's a bit of a personal preference to try and have that reasonable explanation to provide (potentially through a story post or something) that ultimately doesn't impose too harshly on the head-canons of the people I may end up RPing with.

Which would hopefully help avoid the types of situations being mentioned in the thread's side-conversation on the matter. I had a... "fun" situation very early on where I had a person ICly and OOCly berate me for trying to play a Lalafell from Doma. Having something that I could point to as evidence - provided by our wonderful Sounsyy - helped a bunch with that. So, I kinda like having a reasonable explanation for anything that might raise some manner of question.
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... Though, technically, my "reasonings" could mean any other number of Summoners somehow place themselves at the Hinterlands at the point of time travel could potentially gain access to doing such things as well. Which, as you stated, could be a whole situation of them just being "pre-reqs." For all we know, the same "requirements" to access and use the Codex would also be applied to those seeking to use an Alex-Egi or Trance it.

Aaron · **09-28-2016, 11:47 PM**

Alexander's entire existence reminds me of cosmic strings.

Look it up, interesting read, hell you might be able to even use that to help you.

Valence · **09-29-2016, 06:47 AM**

I personally tend to think that there is very little that strictly goes against lore. Want to play a White Mage? Sure you can. It will certainly put you far ahead in the special snowflake ranking, but sure you can. You can always find a reason for it to work. Maybe you are an heir of Amdapori lineage and padjals/elementals don't know about you? Maybe you went through those dirty means to obtain Succor through what the lore team seemed to tease us with?

And then you can say pretty much the same thing with most jobs, a black mage stumbling on a gem of Shattoto (How rare are those? Are they even many or just a single one?). Down to the more mundane jobs and soulstones really. It's just a matter of how "special" you want to be. Most jobs are already special in themselves. A soulstone is special. Some more than others. I mean, even a summoner (which is already damn special), playing with a Ramuh-egi, or a Leviathan-egi, or even an egi from the super powerful Warring Triad, is not stricly against lore. It just puts you directly above the WoL, is all.

So I believe that yes, you can perfectly find explanations (stretched or less stretched) on how you can tap into Alexander's taint and use it as a trance. And so, like we have seen in those countless thread about "is it ok if I play a WhM?", the answer is always the same: do what you like, just be aware that it can close doors with many players.

(09-28-2016, 11:42 PM)Edgar Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 11:13 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 10:38 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 10:06 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:
(09-28-2016, 08:50 PM)Aaron Wrote: If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,

Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.

You make it sound like wanting to stay within the bounds of the lore is a bad thing. I never got why people felt the need to tie their characters to important lore figures or give them powers on par with people/jobs that are supposed to be legends or extremely rare.

It's safer and more interesting to play something original that fits the established lore than try to find ways to bend it to justify your character having X ability.
No I'm talking about those people who don't actually care about the person's characters but only initiate roleplay with a person just to question them about why they can do X or Y and hope they find something to point out.

They happen more often than you think. I'm just pointing out if he goes for the Alexander idea he will encounter them.

I've never seen this happen, not even once. Now if you're including anyone whose character doesn't immediately buy into the fact that your character can do things that they really shouldn't be able to in the confines of the lore, that's entirely different and something you need to get used to.

I've seen it happen. Hell, its happened to me, my friends, and their friends.

Consider yourself lucky, because those kinds of people are annoying as hell to deal with, and they do not like to let up.

To me it's not exactly rocket science why it seems to only happen to the people resorting to a certain kind of special/specific abilities, and not to the mundane characters. It stems from a conflict taking its roots directly into power play and the level of characters "OPness".

I'm not saying this negatively! The fact is that people have various tastes and so have roleplayers. We can already see it pretty strongly in that thread here but that's a recurring discussion.

I think you will find bad apples in both sides: as much as you probably have had to deal with RP ayatollahs that just show up with the petty OOC motives in mind you describe, I have had to deal with the opposite, which is RPers with a whole other level of power play than my own that just show up specifically to turn their edgy characters into the spotlight in some sort of attention seeking display by just crushing all the mundane characters around, perfectly knowing that they will have to turn their attention to the edgelord newcomer (how would you react if the WoL suddenly shows up in your everyday life and started showing all their skills?).

However I learned to temper that a bit because it also often stems from basic misunderstandins and false expectations. The intent is not necessarily malicious. In the latter case, some players just don't realize immediately that they are choking all the RP around them by the mere presence of their powerful character (and they just like being the center of attention and the hero of their own story, it's only natural in RP). In the former case, I have also seen a lot of the people you point out doing what they do because that's the only logical way their characters would react to someone claiming to be super powerful or using some very unusual/stretched powers suddenly showing up with a big smile and a flower in the mouth (how would you react if someone suddenly claims to be literally batman IRL? Do you tell him "omg I believe you, you are so awesome!", or do you answer with a lot of sarcasm?).

This is incidentally why I learned to take extreme caution with the kind of RP affinities and characters people play, before going to actually interract with them. Most of those issues always come from that particular issue of power friction.

Aaron · **09-29-2016, 07:07 AM**

Good point, I'm not implying it's happened to me persay (I'll admit my debut to this site and the rp scene in generally I had no idea wtf I was doing, probably still don't but w/e) but the reason I even brought it up was because to this day I'm aware of two particular people in game who go out their way to pick at the slightest things for shits and giggles in their LS, and I've seen them pick apart people (even if the rp wasn't about a power creep) and go on harassing the players about it for months afterwards.

One of them likes to run around Runestone like an idiot in the middle of the event. But I won't name them.

I just would rather Gegen be careful, because he frequents a spot where one of those dickheads likes to scope out.

Edvyn · **09-29-2016, 08:13 AM**

this is veering pretty close to a callout, aaron - try not to let your concern for your fellow roleplayers get in the way of rule adherence

timey robot wizard man sounds pretty cool but making it work sounds tricky, maybe he hung around goblins and picked up legends about the time robot and then was inspired enough by the time robot to build a time robot of his own - assuming such legends exist if the time robot can exist and then not exist

regardless, worrying about people policing your rp is a pretty efficient way to end up paranoid - if you don't actually like them or want to deal with them, their opinion of you is largely meaningless, irrespective of what you may be told

at any given point in time, someone is talking about you or thinking about you and you may never know what they thought or said unless they straight-up tell you, at which point you know exactly what's going on and can discard their opinions - what they're saying and what they're thinking is of little concern, unless you actually seek to impress those people, in which case the impetus is on you to impress them

forgive me im not making sense but do what you like gegenji, my other tangent had some point to make about fearmongering and how you shouldn't pay attention to it so hopefully my point was made amidst this booze-fueled stream of consciousness trash i just typed

Aaron · **09-29-2016, 08:15 AM**

That was amazing.

Gegenji · **09-29-2016, 08:22 AM**

I get what you mean, Edvyn, don't worry. Laugh

As I mentioned, a good portion of this is my own innate need for validation on my ideas. Even if it's ultimately a moot point since I can choose who I RP with and thus only include those willing to accept that Gogon is able to trance Alexander due to whatever crackpot explanation I put together. The rest is me trying to validate myself - making sure there's nothing in the lore that explicitly says "YOU CANNOT DO THIS" that I might've missed from my comprehension of the events.

So, a discussion thread like this helps me find out the stuff that supports the idea, what stuff detracts from it (and thus know what I might have to "explain" should people raise those questions), and get at least a sort of feeling how various groups might react to the idea. Basically seeing how many doors may close from this idea being put out there, and how quickly. Though, despite all this pussyfooting around, this is a plot point that may only come up in self-written story (once the spoiler timer is over, unless I flag the post itself as spoilery) or in dire straits in RP. So, it could very well just be self-afflicted paranoia. Blush

Killerwing · **09-29-2016, 05:40 PM**

I am one of those people that made a lot of use of Trance out in RPs as a Summoner, with pretty much all the ARR primals(except Odin), and I've been one of those that did a lot of Trance at Runestone. I have sometimes thought about how many of the other primals coul;d maybe be drawn as Trances.

But to me, Alexander is simply beyond us. We can't use him as Trance, much less as an Egi and for a very simple reason.

Alexander SEALED itself in time.

Meaning: Alexander isolated itself in such a fashion that you can no longer reach him in any possible manner.

Yes, we can still see Alexander out in the Dravanian Hinterlands, but if you look at the bubble, everything(water included) is frozen in time. Nothing goes in or out anymore.

Therefore to me, Alexander is a primal that can no longer be summoned. Simply because he's already summoned(meaning you can't summon a copy) and Summoners can't draw on his Egi or Trance with him because there's no Alexander aether to attune to.

Gegenji · **09-29-2016, 07:17 PM**

(09-29-2016, 05:40 PM)Killerwing Wrote: I am one of those people that made a lot of use of Trance out in RPs as a Summoner, with pretty much all the ARR primals(except Odin), and I've been one of those that did a lot of Trance at Runestone. I have sometimes thought about how many of the other primals coul;d maybe be drawn as Trances.

But to me, Alexander is simply beyond us. We can't use him as Trance, much less as an Egi and for a very simple reason.

Alexander SEALED itself in time.

Meaning: Alexander isolated itself in such a fashion that you can no longer reach him in any possible manner.

Yes, we can still see Alexander out in the Dravanian Hinterlands, but if you look at the bubble, everything(water included) is frozen in time. Nothing goes in or out anymore.

Therefore to me, Alexander is a primal that can no longer be summoned. Simply because he's already summoned(meaning you can't summon a copy) and Summoners can't draw on his Egi or Trance with him because there's no Alexander aether to attune to.

That's an interesting way to look at it. Is it mentioned anywhere that multiples of the same Primal can't be summoned at the same time? Or is it merely a situation of no one actually trying it yet? I mean, thinking back on it, it kind of makes sense since there's been no multiple instances of any of the other Primals - they're always re-summoned after they're gone.

Still, that's an explanation for why no one after he sealed himself away in time. Anyone who encountered him prior to that point would have been able to attune to his aether. Hence why my ideas involving having fought alongside the WoL or being present at the "two" outward manifestations of its power (travel from present to past and back). If one has managed that in a manner contextually similar to what happened with Bahamut's aether, I would figure one would be able to Trance him.

Warren Castille · **09-29-2016, 07:54 PM**

It's not a seal if he's not sealed.

Question edit: Does that really matter for a Trance, though? I was under the impression Trance drew on residual energies to make things happen. If it's not that and you just needed to get dosed by it to work, then there'd reasonably be a "time limit" lockout sort of deal for anyone prior to 3.4 to have experienced it.

I didn't do SMN quests, so I don't know these things: Is it enough to just get splashed by aether or do you have to knowingly manipulate it at the time?

Edgar · **09-29-2016, 09:02 PM**

(09-29-2016, 07:54 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: It's not a seal if he's not sealed.

Question edit: Does that really matter for a Trance, though? I was under the impression Trance drew on residual energies to make things happen. If it's not that and you just needed to get dosed by it to work, then there'd reasonably be a "time limit" lockout sort of deal for anyone prior to 3.4 to have experienced it.

I didn't do SMN quests, so I don't know these things: Is it enough to just get splashed by aether or do you have to knowingly manipulate it at the time?

The Dreadwyrm Trance called upon the aether that Bahamut bathed Carteneau. You just have to be at a place bombarded by the energies of the Primal itself.

The site where Alexander manipulated time would probably work.

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[Discussion] [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners

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