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ArmachiA · **09-23-2014, 07:41 PM**

(09-23-2014, 07:36 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 07:23 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: There is NO PROOF everyone on that battlefield had the Echo. None.
You're definitely confused here.

They all have the Echo. Every one of them. Some manifest them sooner or later and/or more or less overtly than others but every one of the Derplander's companions are blessed by Hydaelyn. They are all stand-ins for player characters, and thus possess all the traits common to player characters.

It may be best to take this conversation to the official lore forums in hopes that posters more knowledgeable than I can make clarifications on the matter, but I thought this was pretty clear.

There's no proof of this. Like, none. I'm not sure whats so hard to understand that there is no proof that everyone in Carteneau had the Echo. Because there is no proof. We can argue circumstantial evidence all day, but there is no proof either way. Until there is proof, we can argue what we believe till we're blue in the face.

It's SUBJECTIVE.

Kage · **09-23-2014, 07:58 PM**

I see no proof that all of them have echo. It's just as much insinuation that they might or they don't.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **09-23-2014, 08:03 PM**

(09-23-2014, 07:58 PM)Kage Wrote: I see no proof that all of them have echo. It's just as much insinuation that they might or they don't.

Remind me to bring my Collector's Edition bluray the next time we hang out. ...or load the 1.0 server emulator and see if we can get some cutscenes shown

Berrod Armstrong · **09-23-2014, 08:17 PM**

(09-23-2014, 05:38 PM)Edgar Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 01:45 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Going by that logic means that all player characters are also members of the Scions.

You do realize that out of all the members of the Scions/Crystal Braves, Minfillia and your character are the only ones with the Echo?

Statements like these make me question whether or not some of you have even played the Main Scenario in its entirety (Or rather, 2.0-2.3).

I think you needed to quote more than just that line from my post, and apply it to the context in which it was said.

Pumpkinweed · **09-23-2014, 08:43 PM**

In my personal opinion, I don't believe anyone ought to take into account their job as how experienced they are in terms of role play. Certainly at higher levels you get flashier looking armor and weapons but this should not be a defining characteristic. Also, in game mechanics should not apply to how your character performs.

I've seen many role players forego that (and they are allowed to) and they cast a spell of silence onto other players without bothering to 'attempt' casting the spell on their host. Some people are acceptable to this but I feel it's a form of metagaming in itself.

When it comes to actions/jobs, one should exercise their own creativity. After all, most jobs based off lore are mary sue, single player story lines (other than Paladin which is common).

None of us possess the Echo (no offense to those that do), none of us are warriors of light. If you want to take into account the weapon types, as some have stated before - just state you use a lance/sword/staff, ect. rather than being a 'dragoon' or 'warrior'.

It's my opinion in the end, but I find it the easiest and most flexible manner to incorporate this into role play rather than try and fit the constricting lore into the character's back story. Thumbsup

Kage · **09-23-2014, 09:32 PM**

For anyone else else responding to this please note, as I've said in the thread and in the OP, if you are commenting on how you feel on RPing the jobs, I am not interested.

I am only interested in the lore of it. Whether things are subjectively supported or objectively restrictive.

Thank you.

LiadansWhisper · **09-23-2014, 10:48 PM**

(09-23-2014, 02:55 PM)Kage Wrote: But... so... um... there was some talk about titan and the company of heroes and which primals tempered people that led to this discussion?

Right?

If I remember the story quests correctly, The Company of Heroes lost a lot of people (ostensibly to tempering and general attrition during the campaign against Titan) while trying to down the primal.

As far as Jobs go...as others have said, White Mage is the only real problematic one. Â If we had the option to use the 1.0 version of the Jobquest it wouldn't really be an issue, but yeah.

Flickering Ember · **09-23-2014, 11:09 PM**

I see a lot of posts in here wondering why anyone would want to RP a job. Well, of course you ask this question since it comes to my understanding that you have no interest in RPing a job. (You=Those wondering why anyone would ever RP a job) Just because one person cannot possibly fathom would could be appealing about RPing that doesn't mean that others don't see value or worth in it.

I've only done the monk and warrior quests so far, for instance. But I found the lore of the mechanics around the jobs to be extremely interesting. I think RPing out the chakras and rages could be extremely fun.Â

More to the topic though, at least for the monk and warrior, I have seen absolutely nothing in these quest lines that would indicate that only a select few could learn these jobs. For the monks, their highlander origins are mentioned in passing. It is the same for the warriors in that it seems to originate from the Hellsguard. But in these texts there is nothing that states that only these small groups of Highlanders or Hellsguards are the only ones in the world to know these techniques. When anyone could roll a monk or a warrior, I don't consider it a stretch at all that there could be more than one way to learn these practices.Â

I have yet to delve more into the other job lore but from what it looks like to me, there is no definite answer on the availability of these jobs. There are just different interpretations of the lore. There's so few lore and text to go by off that it's so vague and be interpreted to be a multitude of different things. As such, it's a bit disappointing that the one interpretation that most of the community seems to abide by is exclusionary instead of inclusive.

Tiergan · **09-23-2014, 11:29 PM**

On the Warrior of Light front, I think all of this confusion is built up because there are multiple definitions for it within the game itself.

At the start of the MSQ, the term 'Warrior of Light' was just for "Person who fought at Carteneau and then mysteriously vanished, while also being impossible to remember." As the Adventurer Guild NPCs tell us, trying to remember them was like seeing their 'silhouette against the glare of the sun' -- that's how the name "Warriors of Light" stuck. ArmachiA is right in that there is no proof either way stating whether or not every single person who was affected by the time-skip spell was a person with Echo or if they were all just adventurers.

Then, Hydaelyn pops up later on in the story and refers to you as "Warrior of Light" -- unlike the NPCs, she literally means you are a warrior of Light that is combating the Darkness. She's blessed you and that's why you have Echo and are awesome.

THEN, the GC/Nation leaders decide to call you a 'Warrior of Light' after you help save Eorzea from the Garleans, namely because of how much your actions remind them of the original Warriors of Light that vanished from Carteneau.

So -- are all the people that Hydaelyn refers to as Warriors of Light Echo-users? Yes!

Are all the people that regular old NPCs refer to as Warriors of Light Echo-users? Probably not.

Parvacake · **09-23-2014, 11:29 PM**

I'm happy I keep things pretty easy with Lili. She's a pugilist, and even then that's more or less an easy way to explain to people what she does with a single word. Martial Artist is close, or hand-to-hand combatant, but even then it's not all encompassing.

She can use an axe but isn't a Warrior. More of a marauder, but ultimately it boils down to she liked the way an axe felt and she liked how much she could smash things.

Eventually I'm going to finish leveling Scholar, and it ties into Lili's storyline with her discovering her aetheric abilities, but she's certainly not an actual SCH.

Personally I feel like if the game makes it available, no matter how rare or otherwise, it means a player can use it. It can be played. As long as they can make sense of it and follow the lore provided and not GM or anything like that I don't see why a player can't play some of the more 'taboo' jobs (like a white mage). Would I play a WHM? Personally, no. But I'm certainly not going to bash on another player for it if they make it sound legitimate and interesting and aren't lore breaking.

Sounsyy · **09-24-2014, 12:07 AM**

WHY YOU MAKE ME WORK SO HARRRDDDD??

(09-23-2014, 03:27 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: On topic of OP, I've participated a lot in these discussions, but I don't know why there HAS to be a need to roleplay Jobs over Classes. Jobs come with all these sorts of gray areas and lore-breaking implications. Why not just be a lancer over a dragoon? Why not a gladiator over a paladin (unless you want to play Sultansworn)? Why not pugilist over monk? Other than a very small amount of differences, they're effectively the same.

I quote this mainly because not all classes and jobs are "effectively the same." Actually very few of them are as far as lore is concerned. With that in mind, let's head into class vs job lore.

To start out, the term "classes" refers to Eorzean specific professions that are commonly used in Eorzea today. "Jobs" on the other hand, (with a few notable exceptions) refers to legendary disciplines of times past. Times past might be 100 years in the case of some, it might be 5000 years in the case of others. However, all of these jobs have made a recent comeback in the 7th Umbral Era. Without further ado:

Gladiator - Refers to a Coliseum-hired fighter. These people make their living by fighting on the Bloodsands for profit, glory, or to free themselves from bondage. Though the Coliseum is known for teaching the way of the sword, not all Gladiators use a sword. A Gladiator can use any weapon.

Circa the year 1562 6AE, the Bloodsands played host to a tournament that would change the fate of the Gladiator's Guild forever. Two friends, Ul'dah's champion, Greinfarr the Great (referred to in 2.0 as The Bronze Bull) and J'moldva the Hellfire Phoenix, champion for the Ala Mhigan refugees seeking asylum within Ul'dah, fought the greatest duel in Coliseum history. Both champions were formerly undefeated by any adversary, and the amount of gil waged on the outcome of the fight was said to be greater than all the gold in the Sultana's coffers. But as the match went on, the crowd was whipped into a violent frenzy. A riot broke out, putting both gladiator and bystander in danger. But just as things were about to go from bad to worse, the two gladiators struck each other down, causing an abrupt end to the violence for fear of who would be the victor. Finally, Greinfarr the Great stood and claimed glory for Ul'dah, in order to save it from being torn apart.

Since that day, the Coliseum has never seen the same popularity. So it was that it fell into decline and in order to drum up interest, the Coliseum started importing vicious beasts from Ishgard and other foreign lands for the Gladiators to fight.

Paladin - Refers to members of the Royal Guard of the Sultanate. Formed roughly 800 years ago by Jhal Tristam and two other knights, the Sultansworn have protected the throne against all threats. In recent years, to combat the growing threat of the Monetarists' corruption, the Sultansworn have begun teaching their 800-year art to adventurers who swear their allegiance not to the Sultana, but to the Paladin's Oath. These new Paladins are referred to as "Free Paladins."

Marauder - This term refers to axe-wielders, the famed weapon of pirates in FFXIV lore. Similar to how we see eye-patch/peg-leg = pirate, Eorzeans see axe and think pirate. However, not all marauders are pirates, just as not all people with peg-legs are pirates. Marauders make up a large portion of Limsa Lominsa's navy, and many other marauders go on to do mercenary work abroad.

Warrior - Refers to the old art of unlocking the Inner Beast within us all and embracing and harnessing its power. Warriors were once common throughout Eorzea, however, the art fell into disuse after The Autumn War 100 years ago due to a lack of necessity for the art. Now it is believed to only reside within a few villages nestled in the Hellsguardian homeland, Abalathia's Spine. It is said that Warriors of old would attempt to wrestle bears to the ground in order to tame them.

Lancer - Refers to one who wields polearms. While the Wailing Barracks is known Eorzea-wide for being home to some of the world's greatest lancers, it is not the only place where lancers are common, nor is it the origin of the art. Ala Mhigo, before its fall in 1557 6AE, actually boasted the greatest lancer legions the world had ever seen. A force which, during the Autumn War, was able to battle the combined forces of Gridania, Ishgard, Ul'dah, and Limsa Lominsa effectively.

Ishgard is also well known for their history with the lance. Their patron deity, Halone, is represented by three spears. The lance is said to be the traditional weapon of the Templars as well as the famed weapon of Ishgard's champions, The Azure Dragoons.

Dragoon - Refers to "The Azure Dragoon," the champion of Ishgard. One Azure Dragoon is chosen by Nidhogg's Eye every generation for the last 1000 years. This person is subjected to the full might of the Dragon King's magic, for it is their destiny to once and for all vanquish Nidhogg and lead Ishgard against the Dravanian Horde. Once the Azure Dragoon is chosen, a ceremonial and functional weapon called the Gae Bolg is crafted using dragon bone. A special set of Drachen Mail is imbued with magic-dampening powers and given to the Dragoon just so that they might feel some reprieve from Nidhogg's influence and won't be driven to madness by dragon magic.

This person is not to be confused with an Ishgardian "Dragoon," who is a Knight of Ishgard that proves to the Holy See that they have slain a dragon. This title can be bestowed upon any Knight or Templar and matters not whether they use a spear or sword. Any Player Character can kill a dragon and call themselves a Dragoon, however, you are not officially a Dragoon unless you are Ishgardian. Likewise, you can do what the Player Character does in the DRG Storyline and GRAVEROB THE TOMBS OF DEAD AZURE DRAGOONS and steal their armor and weapon and call yourself a "Dragoon." However, the Holy See of Ishgard does not even recognize the MSQ Player Character as the Azure Dragoon despite being chosen by Nidhogg's Eye because we are not Ishgardian. Go back to Ser Alberic in Coerthas and talk to him. It's quite interesting. He states that never in all Ishgardian history has the Holy See been without an Azure Dragoon to lead them.

Pugilist - Refers to the debt collectors of the Platinum Mirage. The Platinum Mirage is a Vegas-styled exclusive club for only the most elite of Ul'dahn elite. Like Vegas, if you can't pay your due or you try to cheat the Mirage out of money, the Pugilists will sort you out. Giving rise to their motto: "A closed fist drops no gil."

Monk - Refers to those members of the former Order of the Fists of Rhalgr. This Order trained both mind and body in an effort to achieve greatness in the eyes of the Destroyer. However, as their religious and political influence grew greater and greater in Ala Mhigo, the then King of Ala Mhigo, Theodoric, now known as the King of Ruin, began to fear the Fists of Rhalgr, so 1552 6AE, he ordered his lancer legions to surround the Temple of Rhalgr and they slaughtered all within and burned the temple to the ground. Men, women, and children fell to the King of Ruin's madness. Though this secured Theodoric's hold on power, it sewed the seeds for civil unrest throughout Ala Mhigo, eventually resulting in the fall of the city-state to the Garlean Empire.

Archer - Refers to bow users. These are common enough all over the world. There is, however, a racial distinction made between Elezen archers and Miqo'te archers. Elezen archers are masters of the Longbow, while Miqo'te archers are masters of the Shortbow. Those rangers of the Gods' Quiver are noted as the best in the Shroud, if not the world.

Bard - Refers specifically to archers of old who used music to inspire and invigorate their fellow soldiers on the battlefield. The practice fell into disuse roughly 100 years ago during the Autumn War. Since that time, Bards have used their gift more within taverns than on the battlefield.

One Bard of note, Gilbert the Godsbow was said to have slain seven Ixali chieftans with a single arrow. Because his love of song was well known, a unique bow harp was crafted for him and he was bestowed the title "Godsbow." Gilbert's Artemis Bow was on display within the Archers' Guild until it was stolen in an Ixali raid on Gridania.

Thaumaturge - Refers to those practitioners of the Order of Nald'thal. Thaumaturges trace their routes back nearly 3000 years ago to the original Magi of the 5th Astral Era. Modern day Thaumaturges are deeply invested in the study of Life and Death and the cycle of aether in between the two. This duality persists through all Ul'dahn culture and because of this, the Order acts as the religious and political center of Ul'dah. Thaumaturges are the city-state's morticians as well as their lawmakers.

Black Mage - Refers to practitioners of Forbidden Magic. In the early years of the 5th Astral Era, an ambitious Magi named Shatotto wished to harness unlimited power, however her own aether was too limited. So she devised a technique to drain the aether of the land around her instead of her own aether. This technique was coined "Black Magic." As its use spread, so too did the destruction it wrought, eventually draining the world of its aether during the War of the Magi at the end of the 5th Astral Era, ushering in the 6th Umbral Era. Because of this, the technique was forgotten to most in the nearly 1600 years since, and forbidden to all those who did still recall its power.

Conjurer - Refers to persons with the ability to commune and manipulate the aether in Nature. 500 years ago, in the time of Gelmorra, the Hyur and Duskwight in the subterranean city sought to live within the Twelveswood. After a time, the Elementals sent Moogles to teach the Gelmorrans a method for communication between Man and Elemental, and so Conjury was born. There were some gifted with this communion from birth, children able to hear the call of the Elementals, and these young conjurers were called Hearers. Not all conjurers are Hearers, but all Hearers are conjurers. From there, these young conjurers are trained at the Stillglade Fane.

White Mage - Refers to users of the Elemental's magic, Succor. This powerful restorative magic was gifted to mankind during the 5th Astral Era to balance the destructive power of Black Magic. For a while, it worked, the White Mages of Amdapor were able to heal the deep wounds caused by the ever more glorified experiments by Black Mages. Until the War of the Magi broke out near the end of the 5th Astral Era. So much aether was drained from Hydaelyn to bare the strain of the Magi that the land died and the Elementals were forced to summon a great flood which wiped the taint of magic from the world. For 1000 years Succor was lost to the world, until 500 years ago, the Elementals gifted their magic once more to the Padjal.

Arcanist - Refers to practitioners of arcanima. While Melvaan's Gate was only built after the ascension of Admiral Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn circa 1562 6AE, Arcanists can trace their routes back to the ancient civilization of Nym in the 5th Astral Era. These mages and mathematical geniuses use a mixture of geometry and enchanted inks to manifest incantations of both destructive and restorative processes. They are also capable of drawing their aether to form a Familiar, a property of their magic most likely left over from the ancient Allagan Summoner.

Scholar - Refers to a group of phrontists, chirurgeons, and tacticians of ancient Nym, a civilization which thrived during the end of the 5th Astral Era. Similar to Arcanimia, Scholars used geometric shapes and glyphs and the ink in which they were inscribed to invoke power restorative magicks. It is believed that the Nymians were aided by Faeries, magical beings possibly akin to Familiars. However, in the aftermath of the War of the Magi, the Nymians were afflicted with a terrible plague which deformed their inhabitants and struck from them their ability to invoke their former magicks, including the Fae. After the most recent Calamity, ruins of ancient Nym were uncovered in Vylbrand, making the rediscovery of that ancient magic possible.

Summoner - Refers to users of a form of magic once used by the ancient Allagans in the 3rd Astral Era over 5000 years ago. The Allagans are believed to have possessed great knowledge of magic and technology that has since been lost to the world. One of these forms of magic was known as Summoning, wherein a mage would invoke the essences of Primals they had defeated in combat. One such Allagan hero, named Wiyu, faced off against the Dark Divinity using the power of the Primals. However, the battle took an ill turn, and Wiyu sacrificed herself to seal the Elder Primal Odin from the world for the next 5000 years.

Today, there are very few who are even aware of this practice, let alone capable of wielding its power. However, with the Sons of Saint Coinach delving deeper and deeper into the secrets of the ancient Allagans and the ever growing popularity of Allagan artifacts on the market, knowledge thought lost for over 5000 years has slowly crept back to the surface. As for the summoner in the SMN storyline, he was taught this power by the Ascians, not via a soulstone or having fought a Primal.

Going further into this tangent of Summoners having to face the Primals, it is merely stated in the SMN storyline that your proximity to a Primal Summoning and its subsequent death is what awakens the power within you and allows the Player Character to draw forth that essence into an Egi. It does not specifically say that you, the Player Character, must needs be the blade which slays it. One could merely be a close observer to the fight, like Urianger oversees our duel with Ramuh in the MSQ.

(OMG, can you tell I got tired there towards the end. Guys are killing me.)

/Deep breath.

ECHO!

Let's delve right in. In response to Zyrusticae's link to Anonymoose's summary of the differences between Warriors of Light, Twelvesblades, 1st Wave, and 2nd Wave, I agree with Anonymoose. However, I must also agree that we have no steadfast lore evidence that ALL Warriors of Light have the Echo. While it is possible and perhaps even probable, we cannot say with 100% certainty that they do ALL possess the Echo.

Remember, we actually know very little about the Echo. If it is truly a "gift" from Hydaelyn, why do the Ascians have it? How do the Ascians gift it to the Sahagin? Why do the Ascians know so much more about it than we do, if it is truly Hydaelyn's gift? We do not yet have answers to these questions.

What we do know about the Echo, is that it seems to prevent the wielder from dying and returning to the Aetherial Plane. However, on the flipside of this, we see many Echo users slain during the 2.0 MSQ "All Good Things" soooooo... We know that for some reason it prevents tempering from Primals, as we are already "claimed" supposedly. We know that in some cases, but not all, it allows a passage from the user's mind into the past of another. It also in certain cases permits the comprehension of any speech, no matter how foreign the tongue. However, this ability, according to the 1.0 MSQ, is limited to only the Player Character to the best of Minfillia's knowledge.

Now, a bit of a history lesson. The Scions of the Seventh Dawn is only a 5 year old organization. Prior to the Calamity, the current Scions were part of two entities: The Path of the Twelve and The Circle of Knowing. The Path of the Twelve was an underground organization run by Minfillia whose members were those who possessed the Echo as part of the "1st Wave." 1st Wave referring to people who received the Echo's Blessing between the years 1562 and 1572. (In almost all of the cases of 1st Wave Echo users, lore states that they witnessed a "star shower" which looks oddly similar to the fall of Dalamud.) So in some form or another, they all possessed the Echo.

The Circle of Knowing, on the other hand, was a group of scholars from Sharlayan determined to prevent the coming of the Seventh Umbral Era. The Circle of Knowing was lead by the Archon Louisoux. Louisoux was the only one of the Circle EVER referred to as an Archon. Yda, Papalymo, Thancred, Urianger, and Y'shtola are never ever referred to as fellow Archons. Nor, is it ever suggested that they too, possess the Echo. In fact, in 1.0 MSQ "Beckon of the Elementals," when the Player Character pulls Papalymo and Yda into an Echo, they are at a total loss of what the heck just happened to them or who could wield such power as to revisit the past.

/dying. I hope... (wheeeeze) I hope this... (huff puff) helps! ^^;
Lore! As requested by OP. All of this information is available via your Class/Job Guildmasters in 2.0, particularly Erik in Ul'dah. OR, you can view the 1.0 Class Storylines, as they are much more informative about class history than anything we were given in 2.0. Grumblegrumble.

Kage · **09-24-2014, 12:20 AM**

((IS IT HORRIBLE THAT I WAS SECRETLY HOPING YOU WOULD POST?))

((I'm gobbling that up))

Unfortunately I am filthy 2.1 player T_T

Roswyn · **09-24-2014, 12:40 AM**

*waves to Sounsyy*

SENNNNPAAIIIII

In regards to scholars, my understanding is you can't really qualify as one without the fairy. You can't have the fairy without the stone. As it stands, about the only way I can think of to acquire one is to have a character trek into Wanderer's Palace and somehow come out alive and having found one. Then you'd have to be of extreme intelligence to process the geometric equations and Arcanima.

Can a typical meatshield axe-wielding character equip a scholar stone and somehow process the mental capacity to use the art? o_o (Flowers for Algernon style) The lore on that is really sketch, hence my current interpretation.

ArmachiA · **09-24-2014, 01:00 AM**

(09-24-2014, 12:07 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: ECHO!

Let's delve right in. In response to Zyrusticae's link to Anonymoose's summary of the differences between Warriors of Light, Twelvesblades, 1st Wave, and 2nd Wave, I agree with Anonymoose. However, I must also agree that we have no steadfast lore evidence that ALL Warriors of Light have the Echo. While it is possible and perhaps even probable, we cannot say with 100% certainty that they do ALL possess the Echo.

While I agree that Anonymoose's theory is good for the MSQ PC themselves, and some gameplay cutscenes - I don't think it has much bearing on the roleplay lore. Of course all the MSQ people are going to have the Echo so you get special cut scenes to show this. This doesn't really show probable evidence that all Twelvesblades had the Echo. In fact, he just makes a weird logical leap in his assertion without any evidence to back it up, it's just "The Twelvesblades couldn't have done what they did without the Echo." and it's over. No other explanation.

It really only explains you, as the player, in the MSQ and nothing else. As RPers we pretty much disregard it. There's just a lot of questions about the Battle of Carteneau that lore doesn't answer.

Sounsyy · **09-24-2014, 01:19 AM**

(09-24-2014, 12:40 AM)Roswyn Wrote: Can a typical meatshield axe-wielding character equip a scholar stone and somehow process the mental capacity to use the art? o_o (Flowers for Algernon style) The lore on that is really sketch, hence my current interpretation.

Considering the individual (Alka Zolka) who actually translates the stone and helps the Player Character unlock the secrets of Scholar wisdom is one of said meatshield axe-wielding types, I would say yes, it is possible. I believe that's more of a character-by-character basis though. Do you think your character is intelligent enough to decipher the stone by themselves? Or would they need a little expert help? (I know mine would need a LOT of expert help. She's not too bright with magical thingies.)

I do not think simply holding the soulstone will make you smart. In the case of most job quests, the Job NPC is doing a lot of work reading your soulstone for you while you're off gallivanting or smacking things in the face. Lazy Player Character making NPCs do all the real work...

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