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**Unnamed Mercenary** · **09-17-2015, 02:58 PM**

(09-17-2015, 02:49 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(09-17-2015, 01:48 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-17-2015, 01:44 PM)Oli! Wrote: They mean the Job lore.

He was talking about Thaumaturges in his post.

It was mentioned, but their main point about the retconning of 1.0 Jobs is still widely correct.

1.0 classes were mechanically retconned between patches 1.18 to 1.20 to better fit the battle team's ideas about how the game should play. This was also when the game introduced the job system, writing in brand new loreâ„¢. You can read about the massive 1.20 changes here. (Basically, they decided that FFXIV's classes should act more "traditional" and the battle system was adjusted to reflect this. CNJ became a healer and lost most elemental magic, THM stopped being about astral and umbral magic of life and death and became fire, ice and lightning. Other classes were adjusted, but these were the two where the lore and mechanics became the most separated.)

Ashe · **09-17-2015, 02:58 PM**

(09-17-2015, 02:57 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(09-17-2015, 02:51 PM)Ashe Wrote: I don't mind people RPing a black mage. I RP one who doesn't show himself as a mage at all because....duh >> That and Black Magic is dangerous to use in general...wouldn't recommend doing it without 1) keeping it a secret and 2) ICly having a soul stone for it 'cause if you don't and you use it too much/wrong you will just blow yourself up (literally).

Sorry, your wiki lead me to believe otherwise.

Quote:Black Mage Asheloux is, through and through, a Black Mage. He is very open about his interests in the void and darker magics. While itâ€™s technically shunned upon, Asheloux embraces it, and he is very good at it.

Ain't shunned upon. Illegal, with immediate consequences upon discovery.

Sorry my wiki needs mad updating and need a lot of re-writing and retconning since I wrote it months ago without knowing the lore as well as I do now and haven't found time to go back and read it.
Most people I RP with know my characters Black Mage-ness is not the main part of his character. I changed a lot because I know that black magic is illegal. My character is mostly ICly just a researcher of Allagan tech...and and anddddd uses "Doman Magic" (/cough ninjutsu) for combat.
I had to change a lot of stuff because I was gonna kill him off anyways and then decided against it >>

Thanks for reminding me since I was working on Zeph's wiki so much~ I'll get to it once I'm done with a ton of work I have to get done~

Oli! · **09-17-2015, 03:00 PM**

(09-17-2015, 02:52 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: 1.0 class lore stands just fine for the Ul'dah classes. 1.0 Pugilists were not trained by Holyfist, they were finger-and-knee-breakers working for the gambling den on the strip. 1.0 Gladiators were not a mercenary band of disciplined swords, they were legitimately-fighting-in-the-Coliseum-like-Raubahn gladiators. It's entirely reasonable that the Ossuary, inundated with adventurers as they would have been since 1.x, have changed their schooling and tutelage to be more widespread.

Think about it: A gaggle of powerful mages with power over LIFE AND DEATH would not share those secrets with the masses. The Ossuary used to be where the rich and powerful were interred. Adventurers don't give a damn about that (and it means less people take a cut of the sweet, sweet payday). The 1.0 lore works just fine if you're someone who played back then, because those legacy characters would have literally learned differently than these damn kids people starting now.

I'm sure Classes are fine, but there was still some retconning done to Jobs (WHMs originally controlled all elements, including those now belonging to THMs / BLMs, time was turned back on the progression of Erik and Widargelt, etc.). The confusion seems to be stemming from the use of the word "classes" to refer to what we would have called Jobs, most likely because using Classes to refer to everything is common in other games.

Oli! · **09-17-2015, 03:02 PM**

(09-17-2015, 02:53 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-17-2015, 02:49 PM)Oli! Wrote: It was mentioned, but their main point about the retconning of 1.0 Jobs is still widely correct.

I never said that it wasn't. Â I was very, very, very specific that I was referring only to Classes, and not to Jobs.

Oh, cool. Yeah, I think there was some confusion there then.

Warren Castille · **09-17-2015, 03:02 PM**

(09-17-2015, 02:58 PM)Ashe Wrote: Sorry my wiki needs mad updating and need a lot of re-writing and retconing since I wrote it months ago without knowing the lore as well as I do now~

S'cool. Mine's woefully out of date, too.

Also, leading some fact to THM lore being different because of new leadership (like PUG and GLD), there's the teensy fact that the former THM guild leader is the lalafell you fight at the end of Halatali HM.

The Ossuary's got new teachers, like everywhere else. It's fine to play with the old methods, but most people genuinely won't know about them, IC or OOC, so it's something of a nostalgia trip for me to see them. It's not so much a hard retcon as it is a change of pace in the five year gap.

Ashe · **09-17-2015, 03:08 PM**

Is it bad that I refused to make a THM over a BLM 'cause of the THM guild being a punch of dumb as horse poop Lalafells? >>Â
Someone in my FC's wiki says he has the echo and I was like "OMG YOUR CHARACTER HAS THE ECHO WHY DIDN'T I KNOW THIS AFTER RUNNING AN FC WITH YOU FOR A YEAR?!" and he's like "...I changed my mind once I realized it's not that big of a thing for RP." So yeah....I'm betting a lot of people's wikis have crazy things on theirs that....don't make sense now xPP

And yeah, that was my main point. A good portion of players didn't play 1.0 or...were like me and gave up after a week 'cause it was broken (like legit, broken).Â Edit: My game was also moldy Japanese version >>
I'm prolly just using the word wrong.Â
That's my big issue with 1.0-based content RP. Not everyone went and rewatched other's play through 1.0 (and if it sounds like I have no life that I did....I had a lot of free time while I was searching for a job >>)

Warren Castille · **09-17-2015, 03:13 PM**

(09-17-2015, 03:08 PM)Ashe Wrote: And yeah, that was my main point. A good portion of players didn't play 1.0 or...were like me and gave up after a week 'cause it was broken (like legit, broken).Â Edit: My game was also moldy Japanese version >>
I'm prolly just using the word wrong.Â
That's my big issue with 1.0-based content RP. Not everyone went and rewatched other's play through 1.0 (and if it sounds like I have no life that I did....I had a lot of free time while I was searching for a job >>)

You're not wrong, 1.0 was laughably broken. The game simply didn't work. That aside, though, why should the people who did stick it out be forced to change their canon backstories or lore because other people didn't like it? It's not as if Square came in and said "This never happened" or anything. The lore panel that commented on it basically agreed that the lore and the mechanics don't mesh, but the lore was still valid. I think. SOUNSYY DO THE THING YOU DO.

If you didn't play 1.0, and you come across someone RPing with 1.0 abilities, is that really so horrible? Warren's backstory has him affiliated with the Coliseum in the background, should I change that because the GLD guild doesn't do that anymore? It's one thing where, say, White Mage got forcibly addressed, but the THM changes aren't nearly as bad. Further, they don't disprove that people don't sacrifice bits of themselves for power, or that it isn't a feasible change. There's so many gaps and spaces in what we're shown, what was shown, and what actually got changed or swapped out.

People are going to RP what they RP, and someone using the Umbral/Astral spells isn't a bad thing. No less than people mix-and-matching class powers to do whatever they want.

Mikoto · **09-17-2015, 03:14 PM**

(09-17-2015, 02:42 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Mechanics =/= Lore.

Black Magic isn't Thaumaturgy, it's a technique and it's entirely fucking illegal. People openly talking about being black mages are worse than anyone RPing with lost limbs for power, because one of these is defined in-lore as being cause for arrest/death/horrible things and the other exists as a plausible grey area.

Also: Convert. Sacrifice HP for magical power.

And Another Thing Edit:

Posted below Oli, ignore

I personally agree with the bolded part. I'm taking extra measure in making sure that being a THM is the main thing about the character and being a BLM is a side thing that people might run into if they are lucky or manage to find him in the act.Â He is doing the full duties of a THM that they usually have done back in 1.0 [Working with Funerals, taking care of the dead, giving blessings of Nald'thal to those that seek him out, etc] instead of focusing on the pure blasty blasty death part like the new leadership that he finds himself disagreeing with.

1.0 THM was all about sacrifice to gain something out of it, especially with the healing where they drained their own HP to heal others. My character was taught the 2.0 THM ways but is being drawn into the teachings of the 1.0 THM through older tomes but he will never be to the same level as someone who was actually training during the 1.0 days.

Ashe · **09-17-2015, 03:21 PM**

Nope, it's not horrible. I'm saying that it may confuse the crap out of someone else.
Then again...considering 90% of the RP I see going on about petty quarrels in the QS when I afk there, prolly will never be a problem ahahah >>

I don't RP in taverns so maybe that's why I think differently. I do a lot of IC exploration and dungeons and lore/research-based type RP (yay IC excuses to run Fractal as my character so he can be like a kid in a candy store 'cause the library wasn't enough >>)Â
So if I see someone pull a move out from their class/job that legit doesn't exist, like Â /emote casts a move that seems like it came straight out of WoW or another game and flies in the air like a majestic fucking eagle.
....then I get confused xPP

Warren Castille · **09-17-2015, 03:23 PM**

(09-17-2015, 03:21 PM)Ashe Wrote: So if I see someone pull a move out from their class/job that legit doesn't exist, like Â /emote casts a move that seems like it came straight out of WoW or another game and flies in the air like a majestic fucking eagle.
....then I get confused xPP

How did you feel about Ilberd imbuing his sword with glowy red power and flying through the air in the climax of 2.55?

Oli! · **09-17-2015, 03:28 PM**

It's important to note that the separation between mechanics and lore occurs when those that are modeling the assets and coding the functions aren't given the ten years and several terabytes of data-space they would need in order to program-out every single possible application of what the lore says, while simultaneously maintaining some semblance of balance to give players equal footing.

You could probably give a THM a sword and have them swing it around like Gandalf while simultaneously shooting fire and magical lasers from it. You could also make a staff-fighting Monk that heals their buddies with Conjury.

They're not impossible, we just don't have those things because programming them in wouldn't necessarily make for a balanced / good / timely-released game.

Warren Castille · **09-17-2015, 03:31 PM**

True, and if someone came at that angle with an appropriate level of gravitas and explanation, I don't see it being a problem. Handcuffing people to only using hotbar skills in RP is a bit strange for roleplayers, though.

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Ashe · **09-17-2015, 03:33 PM**

(09-17-2015, 03:23 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(09-17-2015, 03:21 PM)Ashe Wrote: So if I see someone pull a move out from their class/job that legit doesn't exist, like Â /emote casts a move that seems like it came straight out of WoW or another game and flies in the air like a majestic fucking eagle.
....then I get confused xPP

How did you feel about Ilberd imbuing his sword with glowy red power and flying through the air in the climax of 2.55?

Hmmmmm....I've been through 2.55 twice now and every time I watch those cutscenes I am already so fucking mad I forget to think about that haha.
The feels never go way, man.
Buuuut...I honestly don't know what to make of that. It's like DRK crap but it's not? Honestly those scenes were mostly for dramatic effect. I think it's possible to channel your aether into stuff...monks that heal with conjury (as Oli! was talking about), aren't impossible. There are cross class stuff and I know people who RP as having skills in more than one "class" ICly. Â Monks who can heal are more believable than someone who is a summoner, white mage, and black mage and channels their geometries, elemental stuff and earthly aether through their spear while leaping around like a dragoon while murdering primals >>

Quick edit: I've had Ashe channel through another mage's staff while fighting him as a ninja. I don't mind stuff that is BELIEVABLE that is not on your hotbar...but if you're gonna make your character fly you better be able to back that shit up haha

Warren Castille · **09-17-2015, 03:36 PM**

There's precedent for off-hotbar skills, though. There's multi-colored Carbuncles we never got to see before. There's an entire school of sword skills that we don't have access to. Why not 1.0 spells, then? Why not waves of fire, or balls of lightning, or any number of things imagined?

If you write it well enough, people won't care what you do with it.

Ashe · **09-17-2015, 03:54 PM**

Apparently you can't quote yourself?

"I don't mind stuff that is BELIEVABLE that is not on your hotbar"

That is the case and point

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