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Mavis · **02-10-2016, 03:34 AM**

-sigh- look, just look.Â
"I never did this dungeon as -insert role here-", is not an excuse. M9, you must've run Dzemael way more than me considering you got three 60s. How can you not know how to do the pulls if you've seen and done them for atleast 20 times. And if you THEN tell people who call you out on it "mean", you lost all credibility.Â
Shaking my head.

Warren Castille · **02-10-2016, 11:11 AM**

I still gripe when healers tell me to put on Shield Oath during Trial primals.

1) I'm about 40 ilvl over the requirement
2) Our DPS is pasting everything because THEY are 40 ilvl over the requirement
3) There are no scary movies in any fight except maybe Ramuh's big bolt/aa combo
4) I'm using cooldowns intelligently
5) cri moar

Tank privilege: checked, and still present

Edgar · **02-10-2016, 11:59 AM**

I've had people asking me what the fuck I know about tanking because I main a PLD, as if there's an actual stigma developed against those who play it.

Never mind that I'm i198 with this job. No, clearly, because I play the tank with the lowest amount of overall damage potency, I'm a fucking plebian who was somehow carried through the game.

I should probably also mention the person who did this was a DRK who was mad that I wanted to MT in Void Ark.

Warren Castille · **02-10-2016, 12:01 PM**

That pisses me off, too. Paladin's plenty capable of holding threat as a MT, and since both DRK and WAR should be out-damaging it, there's zero reason to reduce raid damage so someone can feel better about their peen. If the paladin's tanking and the WAR and the DRK are free to just go to town, it's helping the group, not hurting it.

Saravahn · **02-10-2016, 12:11 PM**

One could argue that because you are using the "lesser" of the three tanks and still doing well enough that you know a fair bit about tanking.

Trust me. I dislike the stigma against paladins as well. It was once my main. I switched to DRK because of the numbers and the fact that, as of right now, it is more fun to play, imo.

Perhaps the "fixes" in the upcoming patch will put PLD on par or above the other two.

Valence · **02-10-2016, 03:43 PM**

As a heal I hug all the paladins. They are the most comfy to heal, just apply regen and forget about him until it's ready to apply another one... Then holy holy holy. Even better when a MCH or BRD is in the group, and the last one a summoner. Those poor mob stacks.

PLD players are also the most likeable in my opinion, generally, since all the terrible players switched for something else META-compliant.

Edgar · **02-10-2016, 04:25 PM**

(02-10-2016, 12:01 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: That pisses me off, too. Paladin's plenty capable of holding threat as a MT, and since both DRK and WAR should be out-damaging it, there's zero reason to reduce raid damage so someone can feel better about their peen. If the paladin's tanking and the WAR and the DRK are free to just go to town, it's helping the group, not hurting it.

PLD has next to no damage, but awesome defensive CDs and a skill that procs only when successfully blocking an attack (Shield Swipe) as well as a mana-regen skill (Sheltron) that guarantees that block.

Despite having Royal Authority and Goring Blade by endgame, there is no reason PLD should ever be OTing. People like to argue Clemency at this point, but when you factor in the fact that Clemency eats huge amounts of mp, and Shelltron provides a second form of mana regen available primarily for the MT, oddly enough, Clemency is more useful to the MT than it would ever be for the OT. More opportunities to use what is already a situational skill can only be a good thing!

All of this considered, there should never be a moment where PLD is OTing. The utility is just too good.

Warren Castille · **02-10-2016, 04:32 PM**

(02-10-2016, 04:25 PM)Edgar Wrote:
(02-10-2016, 12:01 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: That pisses me off, too. Paladin's plenty capable of holding threat as a MT, and since both DRK and WAR should be out-damaging it, there's zero reason to reduce raid damage so someone can feel better about their peen. If the paladin's tanking and the WAR and the DRK are free to just go to town, it's helping the group, not hurting it.

PLD has next to no damage, but awesome defensive CDs and a skill that procs only when successfully blocking an attack (Shield Swipe) as well as a mana-regen skill (Sheltron) that guarantees that block.

Despite having Royal Authority and Goring Blade by endgame, there is no reason PLD should ever be OTing. People like to argue Clemency at this point, but when you factor in the fact that Clemency eats huge amounts of mp, and Shelltron provides a second form of mana regen available primarily for the MT, oddly enough, Clemency is more useful to the MT than it would ever be for the OT. More opportunities to use what is already a situational skill can only be a good thing!

All of this considered, there should never be a moment where PLD is OTing. The utility is just too good.

That's not how it works, though. Take a look at DRK's cooldown suite and explain how paladin comes out ahead. Look at WAR's and tell me how it comes out ahead. Paladin is behind both offensively by miles and defensively but enough for it to make no sense to use a paladin over one of the others. Sheltron guarantees a block, but still can't block magic, and that was the bulk of non-roulette damage for the almost-entirety of HW so far. Paladin takes as much damage as the others, and mitigates less and ends fights slower.

Also, Clemency isn't good. Three second cast, can be interrupted, and breaks combo. Anything that breaks combos isn't good. It's also something like 40% of your base MP, and even lining up sheltron and riot>goring to recover some, that's not enough to make up for the initial cost. And if you're spamming riot>goring for MP, you're not doing your job correctly. Paladin's in a bad state when compared to the other tanks. It's fine if its all you have, but the others will do the job better.

Edgar · **02-10-2016, 04:51 PM**

(02-10-2016, 04:32 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(02-10-2016, 04:25 PM)Edgar Wrote:
(02-10-2016, 12:01 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: That pisses me off, too. Paladin's plenty capable of holding threat as a MT, and since both DRK and WAR should be out-damaging it, there's zero reason to reduce raid damage so someone can feel better about their peen. If the paladin's tanking and the WAR and the DRK are free to just go to town, it's helping the group, not hurting it.

PLD has next to no damage, but awesome defensive CDs and a skill that procs only when successfully blocking an attack (Shield Swipe) as well as a mana-regen skill (Sheltron) that guarantees that block.

Despite having Royal Authority and Goring Blade by endgame, there is no reason PLD should ever be OTing. People like to argue Clemency at this point, but when you factor in the fact that Clemency eats huge amounts of mp, and Shelltron provides a second form of mana regen available primarily for the MT, oddly enough, Clemency is more useful to the MT than it would ever be for the OT. More opportunities to use what is already a situational skill can only be a good thing!

All of this considered, there should never be a moment where PLD is OTing. The utility is just too good.

That's not how it works, though. Take a look at DRK's cooldown suite and explain how paladin comes out ahead. Look at WAR's and tell me how it comes out ahead. Paladin is behind both offensively by miles and defensively but enough for it to make no sense to use a paladin over one of the others. Sheltron guarantees a block, but still can't block magic, and that was the bulk of non-roulette damage for the almost-entirety of HW so far. Paladin takes as much damage as the others, and mitigates less and ends fights slower.

Also, Clemency isn't good. Three second cast, can be interrupted, and breaks combo. Anything that breaks combos isn't good. It's also something like 40% of your base MP, and even lining up sheltron and riot>goring to recover some, that's not enough to make up for the initial cost. And if you're spamming riot>goring for MP, you're not doing your job correctly. Paladin's in a bad state when compared to the other tanks. It's fine if its all you have, but the others will do the job better.

Then I suppose we'll have to see what 3.2 does for us.

Warren Castille · **02-10-2016, 05:08 PM**

(02-10-2016, 04:51 PM)Edgar Wrote: Then I suppose we'll have to see what 3.2 does for us.

Yep. People trying to get SE to understand this was likely the reason they kept saying things in Live Letters about "We can't just change a class, these things take time and research." It was established very early into Savage that Paladin wasn't holding up, and over time and people got better at the encounters it just stockpiled. Majority of players won't notice or care, but the disparity is there. It's not as bad as 2.0 Warrior but it's still questionable.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the updates, but this is SE. I'm not too optimistic.

Edgar · **02-10-2016, 05:26 PM**

(02-10-2016, 05:08 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(02-10-2016, 04:51 PM)Edgar Wrote: Then I suppose we'll have to see what 3.2 does for us.

Yep. People trying to get SE to understand this was likely the reason they kept saying things in Live Letters about "We can't just change a class, these things take time and research." It was established very early into Savage that Paladin wasn't holding up, and over time and people got better at the encounters it just stockpiled. Majority of players won't notice or care, but the disparity is there. It's not as bad as 2.0 Warrior but it's still questionable.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the updates, but this is SE. I'm not too optimistic.

Well, if it's any consolation, I've been cynical about SE, too.

Saravahn · **02-10-2016, 06:38 PM**

(02-10-2016, 03:43 PM)Valence Wrote: PLD players are also the most likeable in my opinion, generally, since all the terrible players switched for something else META-compliant.

(02-10-2016, 12:11 PM)H'rehn Wrote: Â It was once my main. I switched to DRK because of the numbers and the fact that, as of right now, it is more fun to play, imo.

Â Ouch... why are you so mean?

But yes, as Warren pointed out... even defensively (now) paladin doesn't really outright beat the other two tanks.

I miss my sword and board. Sad

Valence · **02-10-2016, 06:54 PM**

(02-10-2016, 03:43 PM)Valence Wrote: As a heal I hug all the paladins. They are the most comfy to heal, just apply regen and forget about him until it's ready to apply another one... Then holy holy holy. Even better when a MCH or BRD is in the group, and the last one a summoner. Those poor mob stacks.

PLD players are also the most likeable in my opinion, generally, since all the terrible players switched for something else META-compliant.

I certainly didn't mean all the people that switched were terrible. I know a fair bit of tanks that got disgusted of their main PLD and switched out of options. That would be quite the non sequitur to assume that all the terrible players switching means automatically that everyone switching is a terrible player...Â Blush

But maybe it's just personal experience of course. I just maintain it though: the most resilient tanks I ever have had the pleasure to deal with were PLDs. I dislike healing warriors, they are just huge HP sacks with no resists. A nightmare to heal. They suck all your MP in no time.

Aaron · **02-10-2016, 07:00 PM**

It'd be funny if PLD come 3.2 just destroys the others.

Martiallais · **02-10-2016, 07:11 PM**

(02-10-2016, 07:00 PM)Aaron Wrote: It'd be funny if PLD come 3.2 just destroys the others.

It'll be like back in WoW when paladins got buffed to the heavens and were able to lounge in the sun, floating on the tears of our former oppressors.

Of course they were nerfed "into the ground" after that but..it was a wonderful time while it lasted.

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