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[NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Printable Version

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RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Steel Wolf - 11-17-2015

This has been a fun thread to read.

One word that I unearthed, though its origin is not completely known to me, is "cocksmanship". Which, as one should suppose, is defined as a man's sexual performance--a dirty play on "swordsmanship".

I have had a devil of a time finding a good point to use the word. XD

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Yssen - 11-17-2015

If you are looking for some interesting inspiration as far as period swears and what not, dig into some of the writing process notes for the HBO Series Deadwood. While a decision was made not to be 100% accurate with the scripts so that things seemed more familiar, the writers did research a LOT of what people's swears words and curses at the time were and came from. The answers were various Bible and religious references mixed with various historical events based on location. Really very interesting stuff.

Andy Wuhl's series "Assume the Position," while done for comedy/entertainment, also has some great tidbits. It includes a whole bit about how the origins of "fuck you" were rooted in the Battle of Agincourt, essentially being diluted shifted from the words "pluck yew." Though this supposedly has more to do with the meaning of the the back handed peace sign in England. Still, the series has a bunch of neat little tidbits like that for the curious.

When determining how you want you character to speak, anything really goes. Having your character talk should not be a chore. With that said, it IS fun to spice junk up with the unfamiliar. Personally, I probably use a lot more of the Planescape speech with Yssen than I am willing to admit. Which is a whacky fantasy slang based a bunch of real world stuff, but sounds just super fun when spoken/read. Give one a true sense of "was that even english?!?!?!"

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Aysun - 11-17-2015

(11-17-2015, 04:18 PM)Kage Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 03:42 PM)Aysun Wrote: Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.
This fails to answer why a word such as "fuck" is inappropriate. As mentioned before, one reason for its lack of use in a game is highly likely to be the rating of the game. It's already been stated that it's not just a modern word. At some point in time someone's going to get tired of using "pissing" or "swiving" and will want another. We all have our flavor for how we swear even in real life, perhaps they just don't like how pissing or swiving are used. Nor do they want to bugger off.

Oh. It's a personal preference. I never said it was inappropriate for use, just that I prefer when people use words that are used by NPCs (I listed some examples) instead. Not like I haven't used 'fuck' in RP before. It's not used by NPCs likely due to game rating, as you said, but they use substitute words and sayings to communicate the same thing, so why not use what they are? Just more immersive imo when people put thought into fitting into the environment we have. Doesn't mean people are wrong not to, or wrong for writing differently, or wrong for not knowing any better.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Kage - 11-17-2015

(11-17-2015, 06:55 PM)Aysun Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 04:18 PM)Kage Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 03:42 PM)Aysun Wrote: Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.
This fails to answer why a word such as "fuck" is inappropriate. As mentioned before, one reason for its lack of use in a game is highly likely to be the rating of the game. It's already been stated that it's not just a modern word. At some point in time someone's going to get tired of using "pissing" or "swiving" and will want another. We all have our flavor for how we swear even in real life, perhaps they just don't like how pissing or swiving are used. Nor do they want to bugger off.

Oh. It's a personal preference. I never said it was inappropriate for use, just that I prefer when people use words that are used by NPCs (I listed some examples) instead. Not like I haven't used 'fuck' in RP before. It's not used by NPCs likely due to game rating, as you said, but they use substitute words and sayings to communicate the same thing, so why not use what they are? Just more immersive imo when people put thought into fitting into the environment we have. Doesn't mean people are wrong not to, or wrong for writing differently, or wrong for not knowing any better.
I'm asking because I want to figure out why people think it doesn't fit, as you said. Why does the word become jarring for some? Why does the word make it stand out instead of it just fitting right in? Why does the word not fit Eorzea's environment?

Is it because it's a word we use often now?

I see no reason at all for why it shouldn't fit. It is not as if it is a new word. It's not a new phrase.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Zhavi - 11-17-2015

Frankly, it's too much effort to try to figure out appropriate word usage, so I toss words up in a blender and come out with a horrendous mess of insults and gobbledygook that's probably made at least one person wince right out of my rp with them.

I write what I feel works for each character's perspective, sometimes using words I use, sometimes using words I look up that probably shouldn't/don't work (scut, churl, rut). The end.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Aysun - 11-17-2015

(11-17-2015, 07:00 PM)Kage Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 06:55 PM)Aysun Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 04:18 PM)Kage Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 03:42 PM)Aysun Wrote: Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.
This fails to answer why a word such as "fuck" is inappropriate. As mentioned before, one reason for its lack of use in a game is highly likely to be the rating of the game. It's already been stated that it's not just a modern word. At some point in time someone's going to get tired of using "pissing" or "swiving" and will want another. We all have our flavor for how we swear even in real life, perhaps they just don't like how pissing or swiving are used. Nor do they want to bugger off.

Oh. It's a personal preference. I never said it was inappropriate for use, just that I prefer when people use words that are used by NPCs (I listed some examples) instead. Not like I haven't used 'fuck' in RP before. It's not used by NPCs likely due to game rating, as you said, but they use substitute words and sayings to communicate the same thing, so why not use what they are? Just more immersive imo when people put thought into fitting into the environment we have. Doesn't mean people are wrong not to, or wrong for writing differently, or wrong for not knowing any better.
I'm asking because I want to figure out why people think it doesn't fit, as you said. Why does the word become jarring for some? Why does the word make it stand out instead of it just fitting right in? Why does the word not fit Eorzea's environment?

Is it because it's a word we use often now?

I see no reason at all for why it shouldn't fit. It is not as if it is a new word. It's not a new phrase.

It literally only doesn't "fit" well to me personally because it is not used by the NPCs. It makes it jarring at first, yes.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Oli! - 11-17-2015

(11-17-2015, 06:49 PM)Yssen Wrote: Andy Wuhl's series "Assume the Position," while done for comedy/entertainment, also has some great tidbits. It includes a whole bit about how the origins of "fuck you" were rooted in the Battle of Agincourt, essentially being diluted shifted from the words "pluck yew." Though this supposedly has more to do with the meaning of the the back handed peace sign in England. Still, the series has a bunch of neat little tidbits like that for the curious.

This is a false etymology, apparently.

It's especially noticeable if we go by dates. The papers regarding "Roger Fuckebythenavele" are from 1310, and his "last name" is clearly a sexual reference. It's therefore not unlikely that in the year 1310, you were able to say that you were going to "fuck someone," or "I'm going to fuck you," in the literal sense that you are going to have sexual intercourse with someone. The Battle of Agincourt, meanwhile, was in 1415, more than a hundred years after the word Fuck has been in use.

This isn't quite the insulting form of "Fuck You," but if the phrase was still in practice under another meaning (or potentially even the same meaning, considering that the idea of domination through sex is a concept that's basically older than the English Language itself), it's highly unlikely that it came from something that was phonetically similar.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Yssen - 11-17-2015

(11-17-2015, 07:08 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 06:49 PM)Yssen Wrote: Andy Wuhl's series "Assume the Position," while done for comedy/entertainment, also has some great tidbits. It includes a whole bit about how the origins of "fuck you" were rooted in the Battle of Agincourt, essentially being diluted shifted from the words "pluck yew." Though this supposedly has more to do with the meaning of the the back handed peace sign in England. Still, the series has a bunch of neat little tidbits like that for the curious.

This is a false etymology, apparently.

It's especially noticeable if we go by dates. The papers regarding "Roger Fuckebythenavele" are from 1310, and his "last name" is clearly a sexual reference. It's therefore not unlikely that in the year 1310, you were able to say that you were going to "fuck someone," or "I'm going to fuck you," in the literal sense that you are going to have sexual intercourse with someone. The Battle of Agincourt, meanwhile, was in 1415, more than a hundred years after the word Fuck has been in use.

This isn't quite the insulting form of "Fuck You," but if the phrase was still in practice under another meaning (or potentially even the same meaning, considering that the idea of domination through sex is a concept that's basically older than the English Language itself), it's highly unlikely that it came from something that was phonetically similar.

Etymology and symbology are both two completely different things, and both evolve quite differently. They are similar in that they are rooted in the culture and people of particular eras, but how they evolve is completely different. Both have there place in helping to understand a period culture. That said, no one can actually be 100% certain of any of it. Much like digging up dinosaur bones, we only have our best guesses.

Still, the point was interesting tid bits on the creation of curses and swears. How they are formed and how they come to be used in language by people, and how that could be applied to Eorzea. Background research and writing technique over factual etymology and symbology. For example, Ala Mhigans may use the name of their mad king as a swear or curse because he ultimately lost them their homeland.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Oli! - 11-17-2015

(11-17-2015, 07:29 PM)Yssen Wrote: Etymology and symbology are both two completely different things, and both evolve quite differently. They are similar in that they are rooted in the culture and people of particular eras, but how they evolve is completely different. Both have there place in helping to understand a period culture. That said, no one can actually be 100% certain of any of it. Much like digging up dinosaur bones, we only have our best guesses.

Still, the point was interesting tid bits on the creation of curses and swears. How they are formed and how they come to be used in language by people, and how that could be applied to Eorzea. Background research and writing technique over factual etymology and symbology. For example, Ala Mhigans may use the name of their mad king as a swear or curse because he ultimately lost them their homeland.

This is very true. However, I was responding specifically to what was stated about:

Quote:how the origins of "fuck you" were rooted in the Battle of Agincourt, essentially being diluted shifted from the words "pluck yew."

Which is both an etymology and inaccurate.

However, the rest of this is a very fun thing that people have been playing with before. I once heard of several people using the term "Mhigan Victory" instead of "Pyrrhic Victory," for instance, since Eorzea has no General Pyrrhus. The problems that arise for things like that though is expecting everyone to agree on the phrase, as well as understand the reference in the first place.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - LiadansWhisper - 11-17-2015

(11-17-2015, 05:49 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 05:10 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I generally don't try to police other people's language, because well, they're grown adults (ostensibly) and it's not my place.

If you're talking about cars in-character, though, I'll probably give you the side eye.

*sideeye*
What if you're a time travelling allagan.

Then you can talk about space ships ICly.

*sideeye*

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Sig - 11-17-2015

My main character sometimes uses contemporary profanity as if it were candy.  Contemporary profanity with some historical context amounts to little more than a plausible stretch of lore.  Many have posted examples of profanity found in the game, and it is safe to assume that there would be additional profane terms used by NPCs if the publisher did not insist upon a "T" rating.  

The /vast/ majority of RP'ers I've observed using profanity do so in a tasteful manner.  Many characters come from unsavory or morally deviant backgrounds.  It is not surprising that those characters use profanity.  If anything, the complete absence of profanity can sometimes detract from immersion in many contexts, as such terms are fairly common in real life and fantasy settings.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Katzenjammer - 11-17-2015

Any sort of comparison of words used in our world with those that may or may not be used in a totally different world based solely on the imagination of those who wrote it is a false debate from the start, imho.  One can use our own history as an example in discussion perhaps, but Eorzea is not our past and therefore the comparison is moot.  Eorzea is not Renaissance Europe, Medieval Europe, the Shogunate of Japan, or any other time period of our past.  It is only vaguely based on real world cultures.  Every civilization has had words for what we consider foul language today.  They may not be the -same- as we use or may not have really been considered 'foul' perse depending on the culture, but we do not speak Eorzean either.  What we do, as RP'ers, is use English, Japanese, French, German, or whatever language may be our medium to -simulate- the language of Eorzea.  Which I'm quite confident (considering people are people) has foul language of an equivalent to that which we have today.  Or other cultures have had in our past, whatever.  

It's fun to discuss, I suppose, but methinks it's also much adieu over nothing Big Grin

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - V'aleera - 11-18-2015

(11-17-2015, 05:25 PM)Pepe Wrote: there's not really any basis to say fuck is lore breaking

Then it's probably a very good thing I didn't say it was.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Cato - 11-18-2015

I have to admit that there's times when I find myself rolling my eyes at how crude some role-players choose to make their characters. It doesn't offend me but it does make me want to avoid getting involved. There's only so many times the word 'fuck' can be put in a sentence before it just comes across as obnoxious.

I have a strong preference for the use of creative insults native to the setting. The sort actively used by NPC's. I also feel like people should lay off cursing like a sailor in every sentence if they're in the middle of a public place. I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't want to see it when they're handing in a quest or trying the game for the first time.

Then again I've always found that the Quicksand is both very hit and miss whilst also not being a decent representation as to what the broader role-playing community is actually like.

RE: [NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it? - Ari Kagon - 11-18-2015

I agree with the OP. Regardless of how long the words have been around or used in history, they do stand out and kind of kill the some of the immersion, for me at least. Words like "whore", I can read and not be so drawn to it standing out, simply because I've seen it used quite a bit in the fantasy genre.  But things like "cunt", "fuck", and even "shit" feel out of place for me. 
I think that it's because I hear this language used so much in every day speech that I automatically associate those words with the real world. I also think it has a lot to do with the lingo we see commonly used in FFXIV as a whole. There is plenty of dialogue in which a person is clearly swearing, but it's used in a more...eloquent manner (I suppose would be the proper way of saying it) than anyone would use in the outside world. 

Even if the use of "bad words" does break immersion for a moment, it doesn't necessarily kill the entire RP for me.