Miqo'te Family-Tree Dilemma

[FreelanceWizard]

Just don't make us play around with any Sulfuric Acid. I already survived (barely) that portion of my education despite the fact that we had not one, but two obnoxious class-clowns who completely disregarded safety and had no idea what they were doing .__.;

 

Johnny was a chemist.

Johnny is no more.

For what he thought was H2O

Was really H2SO4.

 

Safety first, lest you support excruciatingly bad poetry.

[Myxie Tryxle]

Doesn't that assume that the individuals present have the where-with-all to spot, and actively root out recessive alleles? Because I would argue that the Miqo'te have no idea how to do that, and cannot effectively map say...congenital forms of cancer.

 

Then, I mean...the long term effects of inbreeding have been documented to be largely influenced by societal factors (literacy, wealth, etc.), so a tribal society like the Miqo'te in a pre-industrial world like Eorzea would have a ton working against it in terms of successfully weeding out weak genes.

 

All they (the Miqo'te) have to do in this particular case is win a duel. Doesn't say how. You'd assume that the most fit individuals would get to breed, but as we can see that's not always the case, now is it?

 

The bit about Esuna eliminating contagious disease is kind of off as well. It's a videogame ability. If it were actually a cure-all beyond status effects, the world of Eorzea would have no sickness, poisonings, or even a need for the Alchemist's guild. Clearly, these factors continue to exist in the world, so we can assume that Esuna is either not readily available, and therefore is not a viable vector to totally discount an entire tribe being ravaged by the Miqo'te flu, or it is in fact not a cure-all, and is ineffective at eradicating naturally occurring diseases, being specifically for afflictions of the "magic" sort.

 

This thread is now about science.

I would argue this thread has already been about science.

 

It's actually the complete opposite of your supposition.  None of what I've described needs to occur on a conscious level.  The principles I've described are based on studies in a variety of organisms, including flies, mice, birds, snakes, and many other animals.  It's a theoretical model in which we assume only natural selection is occurring.  In many cases, these alleles are so deleterious that they lead to an abnormal development and spontaneous miscarriage.  Artificial selection or eugenics are in no way required, in fact they're assumed not to be happening, in the underlying mathematics of the population genetics I've described.  It gets muddier when you throw in morality and ethics, which is why it's not a perfect model for human systems, but it's a theoretical foundation to build upon.

 

I'm also describing just autosomal recessive disorders.  This is things like hemophilia, cystic fibrosis, PKU, albinism, etc.  Most cancers don't fall under this designation as they're a combination of genetic and environmental risk factors.  Ultimately, it depends on the overall effect of the deleterious traits on fitness as well as their current prevalence within the population.  Unfit individuals do not by definition leave no offspring.  The fact that they leave less offspring or offspring that are less fit is what defines them as being unfit in the first place.  Also, fitness encompasses a wide variety of traits, regardless of how they may be revered or shunned or valued by society.  Even if a society executes a man for adultery, if he manages to sire six offspring when the average for a monogamous male is only three, he was a fit individual.

 

It's interesting you linked a paper by another student from the exact same class I took as an undergraduate in population genetics at WVU.  It also doesn't prove your point as I don't see a single W value (the shorthand for fitness) anywhere in that paper indicating the value of inbreeding on the individual.  He's discussing the historical societal viewpoints on in-breeding and a few studies on small populations experiencing founder effect in their first 5-10 generations, which I said is the period when in-breeding is decidedly negative, thus the overwhelming societal stigma against it.  The reason this effect is so pronounced is the ethical viewpoint, not the biological.

 

All of my explanation is based on gene frequencies in large populations over vast amounts of time.  What you're likely considering "long-term effects" in this model are actually short-term effects.  I'm not talking about one or two generations, but tens to hundreds of generations over thousands of years.  If you take a historically out-breeding population and institute inbreeding, the immediate effect over the next 10, 20, or more generations is negative, on the population average.  Over time, however, the incidence of heterozygosity (individuals carrying only one copy of the negative allele) decreases.  From a statistical standpoint, you're accelerating the selection against that allele and removing it from the population faster than it would in an out-breeding population.  For a species that's been experience some level of consanguinity for a number of generations (like 50-100), those genes have already started to be weeded out, thus it's not an issue for inbreeding to continue.

 

As for Esuna and alchemy, Esuna doesn't negate alchemy at all.  Not everyone can cast Esuna or has a close personal healer friend to take everywhere they go.  Just like in the real world, you have choices.  Depending on cost, necessity, personal preference, and availability, you may see a pharmacist, chiropractor, general practitioner, surgeon, psychologist, shaman, priest, psychic, etc. for what ails you.  Despite all these people and all the cures we've developed, people still get sick and die.  I'm not saying Esuna will prevent that (especially since it's likely there are magical diseases and curses floating around out there), but it will help offset some of the danger of reduced genetic diversity.

 

The point of this whole defense is that I'm describing the average or normal scenario within populations of a species in the real world that is uncomplicated by societal pressure, morality, and ethics.  If the previous ethical view of the Miqo'te population as a whole has allowed in-breeding to occur, this is the likely outcome for their society as a whole after 50-100 generations.

[Yoshi]

Really interesting and informative! Thanks for the various perspectives - who knew a Final Fantasy race could educate me on the ins and outs of breeding! Learn something new everyday.

 

I have a question as well, relative to the Miqo'te Keeper families - may or may not have already been touched on, and if it has been I apologize!

 

I was just curious - if the Keepers have family units that are less tribe-like in dynamic, does that mean that rather than sires and mothers, there is the regular ol' mother-father parentage? 

 

I was wondering about Cima's clan. Would her family be comprised of her mother-father, then her aunt's and uncle's children? They'd have several offspring each, but when it comes time to get settled down and continue the line, would the children get shipped/married off to other clans within the Shroud? Or would the family consist of a few different clan-names, and they're raised alongside their future mate and then split off to do their own thing? x.x Sorry if it seems vague - I can elaborate!

 

I suppose I could take it either way if I wanted, but was just hoping for some opinions/insight!

[Xha'li Moui]

Really interesting and informative! Thanks for the various perspectives - who knew a Final Fantasy race could educate me on the ins and outs of breeding! Learn something new everyday.

 

I have a question as well, relative to the Miqo'te Keeper families - may or may not have already been touched on, and if it has been I apologize!

 

I was just curious - if the Keepers have family units that are less tribe-like in dynamic, does that mean that rather than sires and mothers, there is the regular ol' mother-father parentage? 

 

I was wondering about Cima's clan. Would her family be comprised of her mother-father, then her aunt's and uncle's children? They'd have several offspring each, but when it comes time to get settled down and continue the line, would the children get shipped/married off to other clans within the Shroud? Or would the family consist of a few different clan-names, and they're raised alongside their future mate and then split off to do their own thing? x.x Sorry if it seems vague - I can elaborate!

 

I suppose I could take it either way if I wanted, but was just hoping for some opinions/insight!

This would be helpful for me as well.  I've left Xha'li's village population intentionally vague, and the only relationships I've explicitly defined is an aunt, as well as his two older brothers, and his mother with the father being MIA as far as both I and Xha'li know.

[Myxie Tryxle]

I was just curious - if the Keepers have family units that are less tribe-like in dynamic, does that mean that rather than sires and mothers, there is the regular ol' mother-father parentage? 

"Though there are ten suffixes listed above, rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race."

 

This quote comes from the wiki on this site describing naming conventions for Moon males.  In a case where you have significantly more of one gender than the other, monogamy is the exception rather than the rule.  You could have a monogamous family to be sure (especially when two individuals forge a strong romantic bond), but there must be some sort of compromise in the society as a whole to deal with the lack of males.

 

More likely is that the "tribes" (communities) consist of several closely related families of females.  For example, I plan to have Myxie's tribe consist of Myxie's mother and siblings, Myxie's aunt's family, Myxie's grandmother, and two families of Myxie's distant cousins.  The only males in the group are boys.  Once they reach majority, wanderlust kicks in (and the fact that all the immediate females are closely related and well-known to them since childhood, thus not desirable mates).

 

I remember reading somewhere that Moon males were particularly nomadic.  My guess, and the way I'm playing Myxie's tribe, is that males wander around, occasionally visiting Moon communities.  Receptive females breed with them, but don't really develop strong romantic ties, and the children are raised in a more communal manner with Aunts and Grandmothers aiding and filling in the father's role of alternate caretaker.

 

If they all settled down or tried to enforce some sort of monogamous system, it would be monogamous in name only.  There'd be a LOT of adultery in the form of females unable to find mates who weren't attached and a generally high amount of drama.  Considering the two clans likely shared a breeding system at some point in the past before they diverged, I see no reason why monogamy would have developed when there is still a major gender gap.

[Zyrusticae]

That's not to say that individuals, of course, may not experience varying levels of "squick" at their own culture, depending on the personalities in question and the closeness of the biological relationship involved. "Call me Daddy," indeed. 8-)

I haven't read through the entire thread (great thread, btw), but this caught my eye.

 

Much of the "squick" factor with relation to incestuous relationships has to do with physical proximity over an extended period of time, particularly during the formative years. You will get a similar "squick" reaction from two adopted children who are completely unrelated physically, for example. Meanwhile, a brother and sister who are directly descended from the same parents but haven't ever met each other before they hit puberty will have no problem getting it on (hence the portrayal of Luke and Leia kissing in Star Wars is actually quite accurate).

 

I have no idea how this works with regard to Miqo'te due to a lack of knowledge about their particular living arrangements, but I assume the constant rotation of Nunh helps to quell this effect.

[FreelanceWizard]

Much of the "squick" factor with relation to incestuous relationships has to do with physical proximity over an extended period of time, particularly during the formative years. You will get a similar "squick" reaction from two adopted children who are completely unrelated physically, for example. Meanwhile, a brother and sister who are directly descended from the same parents but haven't ever met each other before they hit puberty will have no problem getting it on (hence the portrayal of Luke and Leia kissing in Star Wars is actually quite accurate).

 

I have no idea how this works with regard to Miqo'te due to a lack of knowledge about their particular living arrangements, but I assume the constant rotation of Nunh helps to quell this effect.

 

Yep. My recollection is that the incest taboo seems to have an instinctual wiring, and it seems to be triggered by seeing a family member during those formative years. I'll have to hit up my SO for the study reference, since it escapes me. Nunh rotation and a large breeding population where the nunh doesn't breed with every female (and where it's entirely possible for half-brothers and half-sisters to not see each other -- say, because the territory is large and nunh is basically a travelling, um, "genetic salesman") would seem to be important elements.

[Desmond Aryll]

"genetic salesman"

 

lol. Quick! Somebody RP'ing a male Miqo'te change their User Profile tag to this.

[Swift]

 

lol. Quick! Somebody RP'ing a male Miqo'te change their User Profile tag to this.

 

Done, for the lulz ;D

(Will have to change it back soon though, before anyone without the context of this thread thinks I'm a weirdo )

 

On topic:

I'm really enjoying all the insight that's being slung around in here. I have a feeling that by the end of things, we'll have a plausibly-solid idea of how to work out the details associated with our Miqo'te families.

[Yoshi]

I was just curious - if the Keepers have family units that are less tribe-like in dynamic, does that mean that rather than sires and mothers, there is the regular ol' mother-father parentage? 

"Though there are ten suffixes listed above, rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race."

 

This quote comes from the wiki on this site describing naming conventions for Moon males.  In a case where you have significantly more of one gender than the other, monogamy is the exception rather than the rule.  You could have a monogamous family to be sure (especially when two individuals forge a strong romantic bond), but there must be some sort of compromise in the society as a whole to deal with the lack of males.

 

More likely is that the "tribes" (communities) consist of several closely related families of females.  For example, I plan to have Myxie's tribe consist of Myxie's mother and siblings, Myxie's aunt's family, Myxie's grandmother, and two families of Myxie's distant cousins.  The only males in the group are boys.  Once they reach majority, wanderlust kicks in (and the fact that all the immediate females are closely related and well-known to them since childhood, thus not desirable mates).

 

I remember reading somewhere that Moon males were particularly nomadic.  My guess, and the way I'm playing Myxie's tribe, is that males wander around, occasionally visiting Moon communities.  Receptive females breed with them, but don't really develop strong romantic ties, and the children are raised in a more communal manner with Aunts and Grandmothers aiding and filling in the father's role of alternate caretaker.

 

If they all settled down or tried to enforce some sort of monogamous system, it would be monogamous in name only.  There'd be a LOT of adultery in the form of females unable to find mates who weren't attached and a generally high amount of drama.  Considering the two clans likely shared a breeding system at some point in the past before they diverged, I see no reason why monogamy would have developed when there is still a major gender gap.

Thank-you very much, that was incredibly helpful! \o/ It gives me a better idea of how she was raised, and it makes sense that they wouldn't have the typical father-husband dealio when you put it like that. I'll treat it the way you suggested. Digging the female influence though!