Chris Ganale Posted April 17, 2015 Share #26 Posted April 17, 2015 Ganale was in a fight once against his employer/love-interest. She was rather fond of throwing bio, miasma, and virus on him while he was fighting her summons. Lots of vomited blood and nearly drowning from blood filling his lungs. Berserk is a lifesaver. Link to comment
Dasair Posted April 17, 2015 Share #27 Posted April 17, 2015 Well actually, conjury mechanically just requires aether. Same with thaumaturgy. However if you expend your own aether, you'll quickly wear yourself out, causing sickness and worst case scenario, death eventually. Conjurers learn to communicate with nature to draw aether from nature, whilst a thaumaturge pulls massive amounts of aether from the world around them to fuel their own spells. Both conjurers and thaumaturges require foci to cast complex spells however, which is why both use wands/staves (okay, blms use a cudgel type weapon, but it serves the same function). Devs have told us that cnj/thm whm/blm are two sides of the same coin. Bolded the thing I'm mostly replying to here. But this isn't quite right, and I'm only being a nitpicky butthead because I've built some stuff up for my silly nerd character around the distinction, as well as because I think it's neat to consider the differences in regards to cross-classing. Thaumaturge specifically uses their internal Aether, and draws from themselves. Not everyone can do it, as shown from the THM questlines, because they don't have the internal Aether reserves for it. Thus they might end up dying if they try. Black Mages however, draw from the world around them. ... And actually destroy the world in the process. They literally suck up the energy of their immediate environment and repurpose it for their own casting. This was, if I recall, developed mostly because casters using their own Aether alone couldn't manage to pull enough from themselves to have the extreme power they desired, thus Shantotto, an 'extremely powerful sorceress' had developed (or brought back) the method of Black Magery, which uses the Aether from the world. Conjurers can use internal Aether too, as you said, but yeah, it's implied given the sort of spells they're casting, (or maybe it's because those who are Conjurers don't need to have the same internal Aetherical fortitude as those who are Thaumaturges,) that they may end up dying from using this magic from an internal source. Interestingly, the better you seem to be at healing spells, the more Aether you'd use of your internal reserves, and the faster you might kill yourself from it. Thus, they are encouraged to essentially commune with nature, and use 'borrowed power', more or less. So while it can be done differently, it's not recommended. Given the 'right' way to cast Conjury, it's quite possible that you really don't necessarily need those 'internal Aether reserves' that Thaumaturge requires. Main point is that Thaumaturgey and Black Magic aren't the same thing, and don't draw from the same places. Thaumaturgey is the self, and Black Magic is the world (possibly in addition to the self). But Conjury and Thaumaturgey have the potential to be drawn from the same place (being one's self), just... it's not actually recommended or the best idea. I actually have a character who practices Thaumaturgey and Conjury, however, his Conjury is pretty terrible / lacking. It's not that he doesn't know the theories behind the spells, but it's heavily due to him using his own Aether to cast more than anything. Which isn't the way to go with Conjury. I've taken it that using certain spells (like Cure for instance) would take a heavy toll on someone not calling on nature to give them a hand, and even if he does pull a couple of 'wrong' spells off, he can't keep it up for very long. 2 Link to comment
Kyrrae L'minia Posted April 17, 2015 Share #28 Posted April 17, 2015 I would have to heavily disagree on your interpretation of THM. It works the same way as BLM, difference being that BLM pulls a lot more. The reason the THM questline puts an emphasis on your personal mana amount is because THM requires the most base mana to cast destructive spells. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant. THM/BLM doesn't just pull energy from the world around them and use it, that's ACN department. What they do is they use their internal reserves, then pull from the earth around them to refill, then expel it again. They're a capacitor in essence. They pull in, push out, pull in, push out. The reason why BLM nearly destroyed the world, along with WHM is because using more powerful spells means using more aether. They were pulling aether faster than it could naturally dissipate back into the Lifestream. Link to comment
Kyrrae L'minia Posted April 17, 2015 Share #29 Posted April 17, 2015 Thought I'd add on to clarify that aether used for spells takes time to dispel back into the lifestream. This is why the astral era was needed, to give time for the aether to absorb back into the lifestream. And why since then, BLM and WHM has been primarily banned. You can have a few members using that much power, but if more than a few, you have more aether coming out than is going back in. Also in reference to THM/BLM being the same concept, keep in mind that all jobs are simply more complex derivations of their base class. They keep the same types of action, but with advanced techniques tacked on. Examine for yourself and you'll see. Also, a few cures now and then won't hurt anyone. It's the constant use that becomes an issue. However, for a thaumaturge, they could cast cure like no tomorrow if they like, as long as they take the time to refill. The issue with cnj is that they don't have any kind of spell to recover their own mana. Only whm does, and that's an advanced secret technique, like all whm, and it still takes time. Link to comment
Dasair Posted April 17, 2015 Share #30 Posted April 17, 2015 Spoilering this because it's veering off-topic. I would have to heavily disagree on your interpretation of THM. It works the same way as BLM, difference being that BLM pulls a lot more. The reason the THM questline puts an emphasis on your personal mana amount is because THM requires the most base mana to cast destructive spells. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant. THM/BLM doesn't just pull energy from the world around them and use it, that's ACN department. What they do is they use their internal reserves, then pull from the earth around them to refill, then expel it again. They're a capacitor in essence. They pull in, push out, pull in, push out. Also in reference to THM/BLM being the same concept' date=' keep in mind that all jobs are simply more complex derivations of their base class. They keep the same types of action, but with advanced techniques tacked on. Examine for yourself and you'll see. [/quote'] Bolded what I'm talking about again. So I'm not actually saying you're wrong about this, but I'm actually really curious where you got the whole Thaumaturge does a 'push/pull' in taking Aether from the world to 'recharge' thing. I just read through a lot of the quest dialogue, and nowhere is that mentioned; only that Thaumaturge's Aether comes from within (I've got a buttload of quest quotes about that) and that the way to replenish it is either taking a break, or drinking Ether, all with emphasis on the self. It's interesting, but I just don't remember it and can't find it anywhere. Was this a 1.0 thing? Where did you get this information, or is it just your own interpretation? Also, yeah, Black Mage is essentially taking an additional source beyond just the self, and is somewhat of a branch from what Thaumaturgey is capable of, and I agree that Black Magery is a lot more extreme. But I still don't remember anywhere I've seen that Thaumaturgey takes Aether from the world. Edit: I can't speak for Arcanist, as I've been pretty curious where their Aether comes from too; I'd only gotten vague ideas, and nothing concrete on origin, other than the geometries. I'd always thought it was more from the self too, but I could be wrong. Also' date=' a few cures now and then won't hurt anyone. It's the constant use that becomes an issue. However, for a thaumaturge, they could cast cure like no tomorrow if they like, as long as they take the time to refill. The issue with cnj is that they don't have any kind of spell to recover their own mana. Only whm does, and that's an advanced secret technique, like all whm, and it still takes time.[/quote'] The Cure thing is a personal character choice, and I have a lot more reasons than just solely that for why it doesn't sit well with Xavarian. Sometimes problems compound onto other problems. It's mostly interpretation on my end, but I feel like Conjury and Thaumaturgey have some fundamental differences in the way they use and channel Aether, so I merely reflect that in RP based on the Conjury lore I've seen. Link to comment
Kyrrae L'minia Posted April 17, 2015 Share #31 Posted April 17, 2015 As to how thaumaturgy works, it's in relation to game mechanics of how much mana thaumaturgy uses in relation to other magick spells. Also how their personal mana depletes quickly, then refills. Also energy is not infinite, therefore thaumaturges *must* have a source for their mana, else lore-wise it would be noted that they can only cast spells for a certain duration of time, which we know is not the case. So you're right, much of thaumaturge's mechanic lore is based in-game, not in quests. But until I have anything to contradict that, I will stick with that interpretation. Especially since SE in general does a good job of keeping in-game mechanics in line with the lore for said job. As to conjury, we know that spells such as cures aren't immediately dangerous to use without leaning on nature from the conjurer quests. Sylphie casts conjurer spells using her own mana for at least weeks, maybe longer, before she feels ill effects. And her mother even longer. Personally with my character, he has an extremely low mana pool, so the only spells he can cast without feeling mana-deprivation effects is arcany. From what I understand from my arcanist lore friends, arcany uses a spark of your own aether to guide the aether around you through the enchanted ink, which amplifies it. But that's another, very interesting subject. Was just talking with my S/O actually about how interesting it is that theoretically, I think a conjurer/thaum could use their magic without their weapon, while an ACN would be totally screwed if you took their grimoire away. Link to comment
Kyrrae L'minia Posted April 17, 2015 Share #32 Posted April 17, 2015 Also I'd like to note that much of our THM lore are stabs in the dark, since the 1.0 THM lore was basically retconned. It's ignored in 2.0, and 2.0 emphasizes elements, vs in 1.0 THM didn't use elements, and was Astral/Umbral, Life/Death, Light/Dark. So basically what I've done, and most of the people I've rp'd with saw it the same way, so I didn't even realize it was different with others. (Yay for diversity! ) was simply taking the basics of how the job worked, based off of the actual in-game mechanics. I completely understand if someone sees it differently however, seeing as how vague the game is. But in regard to the THM's using ether, it seemed like it was just a boost to their mana, not something that was depleted. I didn't see anything in the THM quests that indicated them depleting their resources, and then sitting around for it to regenerate. Especially since we know rp-wise, aether doesn't naturally refill very quickly, in any body. Link to comment
Dasair Posted April 17, 2015 Share #33 Posted April 17, 2015 Also I'd like to note that much of our THM lore are stabs in the dark, since the 1.0 THM lore was basically retconned. It's ignored in 2.0, and 2.0 emphasizes elements, vs in 1.0 THM didn't use elements, and was Astral/Umbral, Life/Death, Light/Dark. So basically what I've done, and most of the people I've rp'd with saw it the same way, so I didn't even realize it was different with others. (Yay for diversity! ) was simply taking the basics of how the job worked, based off of the actual in-game mechanics. I completely understand if someone sees it differently however, seeing as how vague the game is. But in regard to the THM's using ether, it seemed like it was just a boost to their mana, not something that was depleted. I didn't see anything in the THM quests that indicated them depleting their resources, and then sitting around for it to regenerate. Especially since we know rp-wise, aether doesn't naturally refill very quickly, in any body. Based on what you're saying, I'm guessing what you're referring to about Thaumaturges using Aether from the world is more your specific interpretation than something stated anywhere In-Game or by the Devs. Still, it's an interesting take on it. And yess. I really enjoy all the different ways one can go with magic, so it's neat to see how else it can be interpreted into a character. As for Ether, I wasn't lying when I said I had a bunch of quotes! Here are some straight from the THM quests about how Ether is used to replenish depleted Aether. #9 Cocobani “But, oh, such desperation when the wellspring runs dry. Flame sputters out, ice melts into slush, and lightning sparks no longer. Know you this threat, and mind you the limits of your mortal vessel.” #10 Cocobani A terrifying thought, isn't it? A thaumaturge who has exhausted her arcane reserves is naught but a woman with a stick and a funny hat! #11 Cocobani For we mages, you may as well equate the aetheric energy flowing through our veins with our very lifeblood─should a battle find us lacking in this precious resource, we are as good as dead. #17 Cocobani Tell me, . What action would you take if you found your thaumaturgical endurance exhausted in the midst of battle? #18 Cocobani Oho? Most practical, indeed! A discreet withdrawal to await the replenishment of your energies is a sound strategy. But should there be nowhere left to run, a vial of ether can be your stoutest ally. #20 Cocobani And we certainly do not hit them with our finely crafted tools of thaumaturgy! Pray consider replenishing your energies with a vial of ether before humiliating yourself in melee combat. Bolded for relevance. I know some people might choose not to acknowledge this, because a 'quick fix' isn't always the most interesting solution to a problem in any story, (nevermind it's likely just informing new players that 'hey look, this is a thing you can use to replenish your MP') but that's the reference to it I was talking about. Link to comment
Kyrrae L'minia Posted April 17, 2015 Share #34 Posted April 17, 2015 Well yes, I know the references you're referring to, but I saw it as if a thm bottoms out so that they can't even cast an ice spell, or sometimes two, to move themselves into Umbral ice, then they could use an ether to boost them to the point to cast that spell. And when it refers to withdrawing when your reserves are spent, that it means withdrawing until your umbral ice has sufficiently replenished your reserves to move back into Astral Fire. I'd spoiler myself, but I don't know hot to make that script work. Link to comment
Aduu Avagnar Posted April 22, 2015 Share #35 Posted April 22, 2015 Thaumaturgy comes from within. Class Description: In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction. At the heart of this school of magic lies the ability to call forth and command the latent aether within oneself through deep introspection. To then mold that aether into sorcery, the thaumaturge makes use of a scepter or staff, within which is housed a medium—a natural stone imbued with magical properties. Thus armed, the thaumaturge is capable of wreaking considerable havoc via ruinous spells and curses. you are litteraly using your own aether to power your spells, focused through the scepter. Nowhere in any quests does it mention THM's drawing from anywhere apart from oneself. Link to comment
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