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Lore/culture related question....


Kyatai

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I am really, really desirous of solid canon and lore info. I've read Endemerrin's synopsis and seen his YouTube montage (great job! :moogle: thank you!) and been poking about the wikis... so am pretty up on what lead up to the Fall of Dalamud... but, I'm a culture/lore geek. And I'm behind the 8 ball as far as each unique culture, language, relations, and... well all that 'picky' stuff that makes our characters unique and awesome.

 

One question in particular I had was (and mention it here as several have mentioned having extensive info on Garlamond):

I know the Garlean Empire is primarily Hyur- but they take over areas, so... I'd assume other races are assimilated. But are they assimilated and held to the same scale (aka work hard, advance...) or are they seen as 'lesser'? Or are they ousted from their homelands to keep the Garlean's "pure"?

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Well, Garlemald just so happens to be my specialty as well~

 

You'll honestly get both sides of the fence with this question. While it appears that Hyur may have dominance in Garlean culture, this isn't necessarily true. The other races are members of the Garlean Empire, and some have reached very high places. We've seen Miqo'te, Roegadyn, and even Lalafellin footsoldiers. Nael van Darnus was also most likely an Elezen. We never saw his face, however his animations in-game and body type are that of an Elezen. Plus his name follows Elezen naming conventions, and the XIV team has been very adamant on naming convention consistency. There's always the possibility he wasn't, but almost all signs seem to point to him having been.

 

Which, in that case, means Elezen are also allowed within positions of power. A Legatus is basically one of the emperor's lap dogs, so that's pretty damn important. I doubt he'd allow an Elezen into such a position if he was extremely racist.

 

Now, one could argue that Elezen are a more proper race, but there's another bit of information that I'm going to spoiler as it pertains to 2.0 storyline elements.

 

 

As of 2.0, we've seen the Tribuni who serve under Gaius van Baelsar (I.E his personal assistants.), and one of them happens to be a Roegadyn. Considering that a Roegadyn might be considered one of the "dirtiest" races by comparison, having one in such a position of power seems to speak against racism.

 

 

Suffice it to say, I'm in a position of believing that the empire doesn't necessarily promote racism. It might be Hyur heavy (and it has been mentioned in lore that Hyur are one of the most diverse and populous races in Eorzea, so that most likely carries elsewhere), and some of those Hyur might be racist, but I believe the empire as a whole would not discriminate. It is, after all, their goal to assimilate the entirety of Hydaelyn into their empire. Genocide of certain races does not seem to be on the table for them right now.

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I'd append Merri's post by emphasizing the fact that the Garleans are, in fact, very clear about the races they see as lesser - the beast tribes. Ixali. Goblins. Amalj'aa. Sahagins. Kobolds. These races were cast out by some city-states, notably Ul'dah, during the first Garlean invasion, when it was thought that getting rid of beastmen would lead to more lenient treatment by the invaders.

 

The Empire does promote racism, but miqo'te, lalafell, roegadyn, and elezen are all considered perfectly valid. It's the racism of FFXI writ large, in other words.

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That's a very good point. I got caught up completely in whether or not the actual races were discriminated against. Beast tribes are a big yes, as Rhio mentioned. Primals, while not necessarily considered a "race" are more or less enemy #1 for the empire as well. So anyone or anything related to the primals or tribes are immediately on the empire's list of things to blow up. Even people who sympathize with the tribes.

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There can be a less binary kind of racism rather than 'good' races and 'bad races.'

 

While clearly the 'beastmen' are at the bottom of the hierarchy, it would seem that Hyur are at the top.  The reason I say this is that the Hyur seem to be the ones who get to decide which races to include in their circle - they seem to have the most power.

 

For instance, in the early stages of legislating Whiteness in America, Mexican people were considered White by law, but then (what we consider today to be) white activists petitioned to have Mexican Whiteness revoked.  In contrast, Armenian people petitioned to be given White status and were given it.  The racism here is that one dominant group had the power to decide who gets privileges.

 

From this real world analogy we can see that the Hyur have a system of racism in which they 'choose' who gets to have privileges and who doesn't.  Clearly, they have chosen the 5 player races and not the 'beastmen.'  That being said, the four non-Hyur player races' privileges seem to be subject to the decisions of the Hyur, which suggest a hierarchy even among the player races.

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I would wager that there are just more Hyur's then other races.

 

Also, does anyone else but me keep seeing Gaius van Baelsar as "Gaius Baltar?"

 

See, I'm not so sure that makes it ok somehow.  The Hyur seem to be the ones who decide who's in the cool crowd, and whether or not that's because they're the majority, that's kind of a form of racism.  Sure, it's not the "burn their churches!" or "enslave them!" kind, but it's still something that seems unjust.

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Nael van Darnus was also most likely an Elezen. We never saw his face, however his animations in-game and body type are that of an Elezen. Plus his name follows Elezen naming conventions, and the XIV team has been very adamant on naming convention consistency. There's always the possibility he wasn't, but almost all signs seem to point to him having been.

 

I have to disagree slightly here, as evidenced in the introduction of new Garlean characters in 2.0 it brings question to this. The new Nero character is shown without his helmet yet also shares the same body type Nael had. Being that more Elezen proportions etc. Yet Nero is clearly some kind of Hyur.

 

I also highly believe the big Roegadyn type we've seen will also be a massive Hyur as well if he ever removes his helmet. I'm off the belief and stance that the upper echelons of the Empire is comprised entirely of Hyur and there's a certain elitism about it all.

 

Until I see clearly a lalafell or miqo'te within the upper ranks with their distinct physical features will I think otherwise for the most part. The Roegadyn is a huge possibility, but given they've stretched it with Elezen physique I can clearly see them doing the same with a giant of a Hyur.

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Wow, thanks for the replies guys! Seems there is still a lot of speculation about it though, which- to me- means 'possibilities' and no risk of breaking canon. Not that I needed 'upper echelon' info on the Empire for my purposes, just a general "Hm... I wonder...." But it would be very telling as far as the overall state of the Empire.

Great discussion...

 

So good. Until, like Shippuu says, we see a clear-cut Lala or Miqo 'in charge' we can't be CERTAIN... but then again, we can't dismiss the chance Roe or Elezan could be up there either. Or... the possibility that Elezan and Roe could be 'seen' differently than Miqo or Lala. I mean... if the Garleans hate beastmen so, it seems possible they might see Miqo as a lower 'being' than the more 'human' races. ESPECIALLY if the Garlean are known to be very intelligent- and the Miqo are not as educated.

 

Anyway... its enough to play with for my purposes. :) thanks again- but feel free to continue the discussion. I'm very interested to hear your thoughts!

 

((Not that I am promoting any sort of specieism or racism here- I'm not. But just trying to think this out in terms of... well... conquering nations IRL. And how those that are different from 'you' are often seen))

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Nael van Darnus was also most likely an Elezen. We never saw his face, however his animations in-game and body type are that of an Elezen. Plus his name follows Elezen naming conventions, and the XIV team has been very adamant on naming convention consistency. There's always the possibility he wasn't, but almost all signs seem to point to him having been.

 

I have to disagree slightly here, as evidenced in the introduction of new Garlean characters in 2.0 it brings question to this. The new Nero character is shown without his helmet yet also shares the same body type Nael had. Being that more Elezen proportions etc. Yet Nero is clearly some kind of Hyur.

 

I also highly believe the big Roegadyn type we've seen will also be a massive Hyur as well if he ever removes his helmet. I'm off the belief and stance that the upper echelons of the Empire is comprised entirely of Hyur and there's a certain elitism about it all.

 

Until I see clearly a lalafell or miqo'te within the upper ranks with their distinct physical features will I think otherwise for the most part. The Roegadyn is a huge possibility, but given they've stretched it with Elezen physique I can clearly see them doing the same with a giant of a Hyur.

 

Fair enough, but as I mentioned with Darnus, it's the naming conventions at work there. His name was even used as an example in the Elezen naming convention post if I'm not mistaken, or it was at one point when discussing them. However, that's why I alluded to it only being a possibility, and that he might very well be something else.

 

And as far as the Roegadyn goes, while I suppose it's possible for him to be a hulking Hyur, I think that'd be stretching it a bit much. Roegadyn have a very distinct body structure, and I feel like a Hyur with that type of frame might stray from what has been established. It'd be freakish even by Highlander standards. He'd have to be roided out of his damn mind, which is a possibility, but until proven otherwise I'm personally inclined to go with Roegadyn.

 

To each their own, however. :>

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Nael van Darnus was also most likely an Elezen. We never saw his face, however his animations in-game and body type are that of an Elezen. Plus his name follows Elezen naming conventions, and the XIV team has been very adamant on naming convention consistency. There's always the possibility he wasn't, but almost all signs seem to point to him having been.

 

I have to disagree slightly here, as evidenced in the introduction of new Garlean characters in 2.0 it brings question to this. The new Nero character is shown without his helmet yet also shares the same body type Nael had. Being that more Elezen proportions etc. Yet Nero is clearly some kind of Hyur.

 

I also highly believe the big Roegadyn type we've seen will also be a massive Hyur as well if he ever removes his helmet. I'm off the belief and stance that the upper echelons of the Empire is comprised entirely of Hyur and there's a certain elitism about it all.

 

Until I see clearly a lalafell or miqo'te within the upper ranks with their distinct physical features will I think otherwise for the most part. The Roegadyn is a huge possibility, but given they've stretched it with Elezen physique I can clearly see them doing the same with a giant of a Hyur.

 

Fair enough, but as I mentioned with Darnus, it's the naming conventions at work there. His name was even used as an example in the Elezen naming convention post if I'm not mistaken, or it was at one point when discussing them. However, that's why I alluded to it only being a possibility, and that he might very well be something else.

 

And as far as the Roegadyn goes, while I suppose it's possible for him to be a hulking Hyur, I think that'd be stretching it a bit much. Roegadyn have a very distinct body structure, and I feel like a Hyur with that type of frame might stray from what has been established. It'd be freakish even by Highlander standards. He'd have to be roided out of his damn mind, which is a possibility, but until proven otherwise I'm personally inclined to go with Roegadyn.

 

To each their own, however. :>

 

True about Nael, as well as his heritage to the Allaghans, which were likely Elezen. So it's tough to say. Before hand I was all for them being a mix, but after seeing Nero without his helmet, it puts it within reason that SE has used other race body types to depict Hyur Garleans. So It's a plausibility that won't be proven until we see them all without helmets, or at least one of the two races with completely distinct anatomy features (Miqo'te/Lalafell).

 

I'd certainly like them to be a mix-match of all the races, but at the same time a more Pure upper hierarchy also really makes sense for the Empire to have. Only time will tell (hopefully).

 

If we only knew the Roegadyn type man's name, that might help out too -shrug-

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