Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc]

[K'dath]

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[align=center]On the Beast Tribes of Eorzea[/align]

 

I should probably start out by saying at the time of writing; I haven't finished the main story line. I've been trying to avoid making too many assumptions or definitive statements about anything in the game I haven't observed, lest I make myself look like an idiot. I've done a lot of research and background reading, but I really don't see myself finishing the story mode any time soon, and I'd like some insights.

 

So, Spoiler Warnings! and Spoilers Sought!

 

As far as I've observed, in regards to the beastmen, they're pretty much all regarded with distrust, even the 'friendly' ones. 

 

• Of the beastmen without a primal we know of, the Qiqirn and the Goblins are the most accepted. The Mamool Ja seem about half-a-step down, as they are socially, but not politically, feared/disliked. For these races, Limsa Lominsa seems to be the most tolerant to beast races, as they're allowed to live and trade within its walls, a courtesy not extended to them in the other City-States. Gridania, as far as I can tell, while not openly hostile to these races, will also not abide them in the Twelveswood. Ul'Dah is openly and overtly hostile to all non-humanoid races.
   
  
• Moving on, 'friendly beastmen' with a Primal consist of the Sylph.The Sylph of Little Solace not tempered by the Primal Ramuh are considered allies of Gridania but are still considered hostiles in Ul'Dah.
  
  

And then we have the interesting ones the hostile beastmen who summon Primals.

 

• The Amalj'aa are the sole beast tribe native to Thanlaan and worship the primal Ifrit, whom they believe blessed the land with Holy Fire. They're nomadic hunters who are spread throughout the region, but have a stronghold named Zahar'ak which means 'Like a rock' in their language and who's location was chosen by ritual divination to be most effective in war. They take human slaves and offer them as living sacrifices to their god. The hostilities between the Amalj'aa and Ul'dah are mutual and continue to escalate with movements from either side.
   
  
• The Ixal are the zealots of the wind primal Garuda, who now dwell in the canyons of Xelphatol. However they once lived in Tinolqa, "Blessed Forest", what we call the Twelveswood. They once possessed wings and were able to fly, but following their exile from the woods their young have been born without them, and thus have had to fashion dirigibles to travel by air. They raid the Shroud to fell trees in worship to their god, making them the sworn enemies of Gridania. The hostilities coming from the Ixal are unrelenting, while Gridania's hostilities are defensive in nature.
   
  
• The Kobold are a prolific race known as the children of the primal Titan. They inhabit the mountain O'Ghomoro. They are among the most advanced of the beastraces, lacking in overtly barbaric tendencies. They are reverent to their creator and hold ore and metals to be his precious manifestations.  They are the masters of smelting and smithing his gifts, a knowledge they shared with the smiths of Limsa Lominsa as part of a peace treaty. They agreed that everything of the sea belongs to the men, and everything under the earth to the Kobold. When Limsa Lominsa violated the treaty the Kobolds became aggressive in self defense.
   
  
• The Sahagin are 'basically the most brutal of all pirates. They primarily live underwater, but they both possess and use ships to great effect. They head up the Serpent Reavers, which is a band of pirates that consists of both the five races and Sahagin. Of course, most of these pirates have been tempered by Leviathan, but supposedly not all of them.' - Merri
  

Those are the facts, as far as I could surmise, sinking way too many hours into my research. And while we've got a good background on most of our beastmen, I can't help but feel like they're under represented. We know little objective history, and we know the opinions of the humans... but.. do we ever really get any insight from them?

 

I recall during the story build-up/battle with Titan, Y'shtola mentions that Limsa Lominsa was in the wrong... but then it was just kinda hand waved and never brought up again! That's it? Why would you build that up and then just kinda shrug it off and go on with your crusade.

 

The other races seem less offended though and more enraged. And maybe with good reason! There's at least one friendly Amalj'aa NPC who comments that he would be slaughtered on sight for nothing else than being an Amalj'aaa. (I assume he's a quest NPC later on?) The Ixal were thrown out of their home, Why? Who knows? And then they were wing clipped to boot.

 

I just feel like there's a perspective here that we're not getting. And that's sad, because the kind of polarized morality I've seen in regards to our fellow, sentient men of Eorzea is a huge let down. Men and beastmen share a similar blood, and they've shown a capacity for the same intelligence and same emotions as the rest of us. They are part of our world, and we murder them because they don't look like us...

 

 

[align=center]"What had they done that we would not have done in their place? God, what intelligence and persistence! What a facing of the incredible, just as those carven kinsmen and forbears had faced things only a little less incredible! Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn - whatever they had been, they were men!"

-H.P Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness[/align]

 

 

---

Note, the above is not necessarily meant to be an appeal to your senses as players, or that "omg u guys genocide is wrong" or anything to that extent. It's a serious case of playing the Devil's Advocate because the subject interests me on a personal level. I admit it's a completely selfish interest, coming from a person who exclusively plays beast races (when playable). So don't misread/misunderstand it as some sort of "you are all terrible people" kinda post. But if it does make you think on the actions of the players in the story, I think that's a good thing.

 

If I misunderstood anything, feel free to correct me! The lore for this game is very poorly chronicled. I've pieced together my findings from at least half a dozen different sites and in game quotes (some of which may or may not necessarily be reliable).  I've also been awake for some 23 odd hours... And all of this was without even touching on the primals and the implications and complexities they bring with them! (which is a lot!)

 

I want to know what other people think about this, as well as me picking for facts and such. Do you think the beastmen are redeemable? Or indeed that they even need to be redeemed? Do you think we'll ever live together? As equals? Or are they subhuman stains? Only fit to be wiped from the face of Eorzea? Do you have different thoughts ICly and OoCly? Enthrall me with your opinions!

[FreelanceWizard]

Part of the problem is that the Primals substantially complicate the situation because of their viral and destructive nature. As long as the beastmen tribes keep summoning them, Hydaelyn is at risk. Those in the know realize that not all beastmen are summoning Primals, and that not all Primals are equally destructive (Ramuh, for instance, is much less destructive than Garuda), but the average citizen who knows that beastmen summon Primals is likely going to paint all of them with the same brush. When you combine that with a healthy dose of racism and culture clash, mistrust turns into hatred and outright war.

 

Now, of course, there's other factors at play...

 

...the Ascians, who are the ones actually teaching people how to summon Primals and manipulating events so that they feel the fear and anguish that makes them want to do so...

 

 

 

...but ultimately some characters are going to side with the Garlean viewpoint, which is to commit genocide to stop the Primal summoning altogether -- Primals being viewed as a larger threat than killing off entire races. My character, L'yhta, has at least considered the possibility that such "grim work" is the only viable solution to the Primal question.

 

I don't know if you found them, but there's actually a couple of older dev posts that address the whole city-state versus beastmen issue. They comment a bit darkly on Ul'dah's behavior, which is characterized largely as greedy men and women waging war against anyone who might impact their profits. I'll have to dig those up.

[John Spiegel]

Ten points for quoting Lovecraft.

 

Great read too! (one point for that )

[Merri]

Moogles actually aren't considered Beastmen. They don't have a primal, either. When people refer to Good King Moggle Mog as a "Primal", it was more of a reference to the style of fight and arena that the original took place in. The lore team has even come out to say that no, Good King Moggle Mog isn't a primal. Moogles are actually more closely related to the elementals of the Shroud than anything.

 

Far as the Sahagin go, they're basically the most brutal of all pirates. They primarily live underwater, but they both possess and use ships to great effect. They head up the Serpent Reavers, which is a band of pirates that consists of both the five races and Sahagin. Of course, most of these pirates have been tempered by Leviathan, but supposedly not all of them.

 

Just two things I thought I'd throw in. Haven't busted out the lore guru cap in awhile, but I might revisit this post when I have more time to devote to actually writing something up on the subject.

[Anzio]

Just out of curiosity, where do things like Spriggan, Quirqin (sp?), and Gigas fall in all of this?

 

I think I've seen the Momool Ja around too.

[Merri]

Just out of curiosity, where do things like Spriggan, Quirqin (sp?), and Gigas fall in all of this?

 

I think I've seen the Momool Ja around too.

 

Spriggan have been show to have some form of sentience, but it's never been stated that they're on the level of Beastmen. Certain races are labeled beast "men" because they more or less possess the same level of sentience or capability as the five races, though this usually isn't the case for various reasons.

 

Some fall outside the stereotypes of their races, which is seen in certain quest chains, but it isn't frequent.

 

Suffice it to say, Qiqirin and Gigas are in fact Beastmen. We don't know if the Qiqirin have a primal, but it's highly, highly likely that the Gigas revere Shiva, given their nature in-game as the only beastmen race that normally inhabits the frigid north to our current knowledge.

 

Qiqirin fall under the category of Beastmen that have the ability to mingle with the five races, as do Goblins and Mamool Ja. Mamool Ja were actually called to Eorzea from over the seas after the Calamity at the behest of Eorzeans, due to the dire need for laborers and mercenaries to battle dangerous wildlife in wake of all the destruction. The adventuring profession has recently made a re-emergence, and that's the main reason you see many Mamool Ja resorting to banditry. Adventurers are a much, much more reliable workforce.

[LiadansWhisper]

There's something said during the Botany questline in Gridania that seems to indicate that the Ixal at least once had some kind of peace treaty with the Gridanians.  I can't remember what exactly was said, but I remember Fufucha seemed to indicate there was some kind of misunderstanding of some such that led to the current situation, but that before that the Ixal were as accepted as the Sylphs.

[K'dath]

Updated the OP, took the Moogles off the list and filled in the Sahagin lore with Merri's description. I knew a little bit about them, but they're not really touched on too awful much outside of Limsa Lominsa's story line and are kinda hand waved as 'not a threat' simply because they don't have the means to summon Leviathan, despite the fact they seem far more ruthless and aggressive than the Kobold. I'm betting/hoping they'll be the center of a massive update in time though. Leviathan's been trumped up way too much to just forget about. And there's also that matter of the giant precambrian sea monster skeleton just hanging out in La Noscea... that seems important...

 

The Ascians were definitely the 'missing piece' in my research, thanks for bringing that point up. There was a connection I wasn't quite making, and you'd think with my focus on reading all the damnable quests multiple times I wouldn't have blanked so hard on that part.

 

As for 'what qualifies a (beast)man' I've pretty much just referred to the list of 'Spoken Blood' class enemies. Interestingly enough this class also includes Giants (Gigas), Tonberries, and a currently unused classification called 'Siren'.

 

I was pretty curious about the exact nature of the Tonberry, they seem a tad too ghastly to be men and don't really act with a lot of intent or motive, as far as I can tell. But they don't really seem like beastmen either, and I'm pretty sure Tonberry King is just an abnormally rotund Tonberry rather than a primal. Spriggans and Elementals are both referred to as 'Soulkin' and they are bloodless... I guess if you shiv'd a Moogle it'd bleed, but other than that, are basically the same thing then? I'm kind of assuming Tonberry are about like that too, but that's just a chain of wild mass guessing based only on the classification system. 

 

Aevis were another one I'd wondered about. They are Scalekin rather than Spoken, so I assume that means they lack intelligence. The Dragons are referred to as being beastmen though we haven't rightly seen any of them yet. Seeing as most of my exposure to Ishgardian politics has been dealing with Aevis, I was wondering if there's a connection between the two of them? I didn't catch it if it was explained, but in one of the levequests in the area it does refer to the Aevis as a dragon. It's clearly not a dragon proper, but the two seem related at least.

 

Guess I'll need to level Botany a bit more aggressively! I'll grab a screen cap of the dialogue if it does mention the Ixal! That's a neat point of contention. And it gives me a bit of encouragement concerning my own hypothesis... and also encouragement to level Botany! 

 

Thanks for all the questions, answers, statements, and opinions thusfar! Glad to see other people are at least a little interested on the matter, rather than treating the beastfolk like sword fodder! And there's always new patches and expansions to look forward too. Never know what might yet happen~

 

Ten points for quoting Lovecraft.

 

Great read too! (one point for that )

At the Mountains of Madness should be required reading for everyone. Everyone. Ever. It's an objective fact that it is pretty much the best story ever written, surpassing even the timeless works of Dante and Homer in its epic mastery and shaming even the most ancient religious text with its deep profoundness.

[Jomoru]

Updated the OP, took the Moogles off the list and filled in the Sahagin lore with Merri's description. I knew a little bit about them, but they're not really touched on too awful much outside of Limsa Lominsa's story line and are kinda hand waved as 'not a threat' simply because they don't have the means to summon Leviathan, despite the fact they seem far more ruthless and aggressive than the Kobold. I'm betting/hoping they'll be the center of a massive update in time though. Leviathan's been trumped up way too much to just forget about. And there's also that matter of the giant precambrian sea monster skeleton just hanging out in La Noscea... that seems important...

 

The Ascians were definitely the 'missing piece' in my research, thanks for bringing that point up. There was a connection I wasn't quite making, and you'd think with my focus on reading all the damnable quests multiple times I wouldn't have blanked so hard on that part.

 

As for 'what qualifies a (beast)man' I've pretty much just referred to the list of 'Spoken Blood' class enemies. Interestingly enough this class also includes Giants (Gigas), Tonberries, and a currently unused classification called 'Siren'.

 

I was pretty curious about the exact nature of the Tonberry, they seem a tad too ghastly to be men and don't really act with a lot of intent or motive, as far as I can tell. But they don't really seem like beastmen either, and I'm pretty sure Tonberry King is just an abnormally rotund Tonberry rather than a primal.

 

 

 

Tonberries are the "Survivors" of the Nym civiliation. They were hight hard by a plague that transformed them in mind and body and those who 'survived" were placed in the palace and sealed up. We know at least one Tonberry used to be a Lala so we can assume those who are similar height were that race.

 

 

All information on Tonberries comes from the Scholar questline

[Anzio]

Thanks Merri. I wonder where the Mamool Ja come from. I find their origins interesting now.

 

There's something said during the Botany questline in Gridania that seems to indicate that the Ixal at least once had some kind of peace treaty with the Gridanians.  I can't remember what exactly was said, but I remember Fufucha seemed to indicate there was some kind of misunderstanding of some such that led to the current situation, but that before that the Ixal were as accepted as the Sylphs.

 

That was back when they were the Yagudo 

[K'dath]

 

As for 'what qualifies a (beast)man' I've pretty much just referred to the list of 'Spoken Blood' class enemies. Interestingly enough this class also includes Giants (Gigas), Tonberries, and a currently unused classification called 'Siren'.

 

I was pretty curious about the exact nature of the Tonberry, they seem a tad too ghastly to be men and don't really act with a lot of intent or motive, as far as I can tell. But they don't really seem like beastmen either, and I'm pretty sure Tonberry King is just an abnormally rotund Tonberry rather than a primal.

 

 

Tonberries are the "Survivors" of the Nym civiliation. They were hight hard by a plague that transformed them in mind and body and those who 'survived" were placed in the palace and sealed up. We know at least one Tonberry used to be a Lala so we can assume those who are similar height were that race.

 

 

All information on Tonberries comes from the Scholar questline

 

Fascinating... thanks for clearing that up for me! I was going to go scholar, but ended up going summoner at kinda the last minute. Now I'm actually pretty interested.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

As for 'what qualifies a (beast)man' I've pretty much just referred to the list of 'Spoken Blood' class enemies. Interestingly enough this class also includes Giants (Gigas), Tonberries, and a currently unused classification called 'Siren'.

 

I was pretty curious about the exact nature of the Tonberry, they seem a tad too ghastly to be men and don't really act with a lot of intent or motive, as far as I can tell. But they don't really seem like beastmen either, and I'm pretty sure Tonberry King is just an abnormally rotund Tonberry rather than a primal.

 

 

Tonberries are the "Survivors" of the Nym civiliation. They were hight hard by a plague that transformed them in mind and body and those who 'survived" were placed in the palace and sealed up. We know at least one Tonberry used to be a Lala so we can assume those who are similar height were that race.

 

 

All information on Tonberries comes from the Scholar questline

 

Fascinating... thanks for clearing that up for me! I was going to go scholar, but ended up going summoner at kinda the last minute. Now I'm actually pretty interested.

 

Level CNJ to 15 and do the quests.  You'll bawl your eyes out.

[Ildur]

The dragons have a primal: Bahamut. This alone is technically enough to qualify them as a 'beastmen' race. At least as far as Garleans are concerned.

There's also a levequest where it is stated that the elders of the Dravanian Horde (that's how the collective of dragons is called by the Ishgardians) ordered an attack.

Both of these things imply that they are indeed intelligent.

[LiadansWhisper]

Thanks Merri. I wonder where the Mamool Ja come from. I find their origins interesting now.

 

There's something said during the Botany questline in Gridania that seems to indicate that the Ixal at least once had some kind of peace treaty with the Gridanians.  I can't remember what exactly was said, but I remember Fufucha seemed to indicate there was some kind of misunderstanding of some such that led to the current situation, but that before that the Ixal were as accepted as the Sylphs.

 

That was back when they were the Yagudo 

 

I thought Yagudo were XI?

 

Fufucha refers to them as Ixal the entire time.  She said they lived peacefully in the Twelveswood and were part of the culture there, trading and living alongside the other races.  But she never explains what happened.

[K'dath]

The dragons have a primal: Bahamut. This alone is technically enough to qualify them as a 'beastmen' race. At least as far as Garleans are concerned.

There's also a levequest where it is stated that the elders of the Dravanian Horde (that's how the collective of dragons is called by the Ishgardians) ordered an attack.

Both of these things imply that they are indeed intelligent.

 

Ah, but I was inquiring about the Aevis which were referred to as dragons in one of the quests during the Ishgardian leg of the story. I'm pretty sure the Aevis are not the same as the Dragons/Dravanians proper, but I was curious as if there was a connection/reason as to why they were referred to as dragons during that particular quest. Distant cousins or something to that effect?

 

I knew that the Dragons were technically beastmen though. I think it's mentioned on Bahamut's little 'preview' on the website, even though the Dragons themselves aren't shown there.

[Merri]

The Aevis are just a part of a collective known as the "Horde", which is basically everything and anything that aligns itself with the Dragons. They're more officially known as the "Dragon Horde of Dravania."

 

Puks, Aevis, Drakes, Wyrms, Wyverns, Dragons, even corrupted people are members of the Dravanian Hordes, which I believe is interchangeable with "Dragon".

 

Dragons actually have a very interesting concept behind them, though the following pertains to the Dragoon storyline, so, spoilers. Now, I ran through the Storyline a bit ago, so I might not have everything 100%, but...

 

 

While we don't know the full story, one might be able to argue that Dragons aren't necessarily as evil as they are portrayed to be. You eventually learn that a large part of a Dragoon's power literally comes from the Dragons themselves (surprise), and that power has the potential to corrupt a Dragoon and turn them over to the will of the Dragons. In the Dragoon storyline case, it's Nidhogg.

 

You learn that the reason why your mentor gave up his station as the azure dragoon was because he couldn't bear the burden of having a mental connection to the Dragons, specifically Nidhogg. He mentions that behind all of Nidhogg's anger and rage he sensed and incredible amount of agony and suffering, and that it has only increased over time - thus having a direct correlation to his rage.

 

I feel like it's hinted that Ishgard did something atrocious at one point in time to the Dragons, thus incurring their wrath. They've only continued to instigate and prod at that wound, making things deteriorate even worse over time. We've seen that the twelve supposedly entrusted Dragonkind to guard Silvertear, arguably the most important site in all of Eorzea. Makes you wonder if they're all that evil if they're supposed to be the ones guarding what is basically the lifeforce of Hydaelyn itself.

 

As far as Bahamut is concerned, I also have a crazy fringe theory that he isn't as evil as he's portrayed to be, either. I won't get into that here, as that has binding coil of Bahamut spoilers, but yeah.

 

[Anzio]

Thanks Merri. I wonder where the Mamool Ja come from. I find their origins interesting now.

 

There's something said during the Botany questline in Gridania that seems to indicate that the Ixal at least once had some kind of peace treaty with the Gridanians.  I can't remember what exactly was said, but I remember Fufucha seemed to indicate there was some kind of misunderstanding of some such that led to the current situation, but that before that the Ixal were as accepted as the Sylphs.

 

That was back when they were the Yagudo 

 

I thought Yagudo were XI?

 

Fufucha refers to them as Ixal the entire time.  She said they lived peacefully in the Twelveswood and were part of the culture there, trading and living alongside the other races.  But she never explains what happened.

 

 

They are. I was joking...

 

[WT_Neptune]

I've been skimming this thread so excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but has the nature of tempering been discussed? From the cutscene, I was unsure of whether Ifrit's tempering was of a sacrificial nature, or if one could choose to worship him if they were not an Amal'jah.

 

 

Also, Odin's roaming nature is another topic I'd like to discuss.

 

 

ALSO, could the tribe of deeper Noscea yet have a patron primal?

[Ildur]

Tempering isn't a matter of choosing, it's basically a magical brainwash. In more technical terms, and based on how Primals react when they fail to temper the Player Character, tempering is the claiming of the subject's soul. People with the Echo are immune to them because their soul is already claimed by Hydaelyn.

I'm sure you could certainly pledge yourself to Ifrit willingly, but then you could change your mind. And the Primals don't like the idea of people changing sides and disobeying them, so they probably temper as many of their followers as they can anyway.

 

Odin is left like a mystery. There are some quests in the Shroud about him. He was sealed inside a crystal by one of the trademarked ancient civilizations, but the seal on the crystal weakened and now he is free. He is not revered by any beastmen, though, so how he keeps coming back is a matter of speculation.

 

And what do you mean by "the tribe of Deeper Noscea"? If you mean the kobolds, they worship Titan.

[WT_Neptune]

 

 

I found a cool character that seemed like it could have been Garuda themed.

 

Anyways, I meant Amool Ja.

[K'dath]

I've been skimming this thread so excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but has the nature of tempering been discussed? From the cutscene, I was unsure of whether Ifrit's tempering was of a sacrificial nature, or if one could choose to worship him if they were not an Amal'jah.

 

 

Also, Odin's roaming nature is another topic I'd like to discuss.

 

 

ALSO, could the tribe of deeper Noscea yet have a patron primal?

I purposefully didn't touch on the Primals themselves, because they could very easily be a subject/thread all to their own with the various factors they bring to the table. In fact, I could probably write a full length essay just off the top of my head. I won't, but I could.

 

As far as tempering and worship go, I think that it is possible for non-Amalj'aa to revere Ifrit without tempering, but not probable. The primals 'feed' on the worship of their followers. Without the prayers and pleas of their followers they cannot maintain a tangible form. The more prayer, the more powerful. That is why they temper mortals, humanoids and beastmen alike, so that they will devote themselves to the Primal's being and no other cause.

 

There are non-tempered humanoid pirates 'The Serpent Reavers' in service to Leviathan, and there are 'heretics' which serve the Dragons (though whether they are 'tempered' or not I don't believe was ever brought up, only that they were 'mad'). So you could, as far as lore elaborates on the matters, be a willing, non-beast servant to a primal, but these people are usually not the sort you would associate with and would most likely be publicly condemned as criminals, incarcerated, or flat out executed to prevent the unmaking of Eorzea any further.

 

As for the nature of Odin, there's some quest text that elaborates on his nature a little more. I just grabbed this bit off the wiki:

A fell knight clad all in black, Odin roams paths long forgotten beneath the canopy of the Black Shroud.

 

There are none now alive who know the truth of when or by whom this elder primal was first summoned into the world. Ever vigilant as he sits astride his mighty steed, Sleipnir, it is said that Odin is driven solely by the desire to do battle with worthy foes.

 

It seems like his major function is to simply be a wondering swordsman looking for the perfect battle, a very common fantasy trope, especially in Eastern culture where the samurai is still an honored symbol. His 'primalness' seems comparatively unimportant, though crowning him an 'Elder' Primal does make me curious as if there is even more to all the primals' history we don't know yet.

 

I'm aware Bahamut is considered an 'elder' primal too, but I don't think what the distinction between primal/elder primal has been touched on or elaborated yet?

[Ildur]

The Mamool Ja are 'canon inmigrants' from FF XI, I believe. They probably have a Primal, but it hasn't been revealed yet.

[WT_Neptune]

Revisiting. What do the Kobolds/Titan and Slyphs/Ramuh plan to do? Doesn't each side have its reason for pushing territory, but some flaw to their purpose? Kobolds were defending, but for some reason, I feel like Titan wanted something else specific. I'm not familiar with Ramuh's motives though.

[LiadansWhisper]

Revisiting. What do the Kobolds/Titan and Slyphs/Ramuh plan to do? Doesn't each side have its reason for pushing territory, but some flaw to their purpose? Kobolds were defending, but for some reason, I feel like Titan wanted something else specific. I'm not familiar with Ramuh's motives though.

 

According to the Sylphs you talk to, Ramuh is a purely defensive primal.  He seeks only to defend his territory and his people, and this is in part why the Tempered Sylphs aren't actually a threat to Gridania (insofar as they will only react with hostility if you directly provoke them by invading their territory).  The only reason they're kidnapping the untempered Sylphs is that the Tempered Ones are trying to "reunite" their people in a misguided fashion.

 

As far as Titan goes, he's definitely "defensive," but perhaps this was just an excuse for him to stomp around.

[WT_Neptune]

Revisiting. What do the Kobolds/Titan and Slyphs/Ramuh plan to do? Doesn't each side have its reason for pushing territory, but some flaw to their purpose? Kobolds were defending, but for some reason, I feel like Titan wanted something else specific. I'm not familiar with Ramuh's motives though.

 

According to the Sylphs you talk to, Ramuh is a purely defensive primal.  He seeks only to defend his territory and his people, and this is in part why the Tempered Sylphs aren't actually a threat to Gridania (insofar as they will only react with hostility if you directly provoke them by invading their territory).  The only reason they're kidnapping the untempered Sylphs is that the Tempered Ones are trying to "reunite" their people in a misguided fashion.

 

As far as Titan goes, he's definitely "defensive," but perhaps this was just an excuse for him to stomp around.

 

Have the Tempered Ones shown any malice or obviously immoral views, or has the Sylph dispute been an us vs them?