Lotsa lore questions

[Naunet]

Actually...there was something floating around (not sure if I got it from the THM questline or somehwere else) about how, given the amount of precipitation Thanalan gets, it shouldn't be a desert.  That it is seems to be possibly related to the drain Thaumaturgy/Black Magic has on the Aether.  Meaning that it might actually rain that much...though I wish it didn't.  It's so jarring.  >.<

 

I'd love to see a source!

 

That said, I'm more liable to believe it's just another moment of game mechanics trumping lore (just like the sizes of the zones - though really, Squee, couldn't you have made them just a teensy tiny bit bigger? They're so cramped!)

[LiadansWhisper]

Actually...there was something floating around (not sure if I got it from the THM questline or somehwere else) about how, given the amount of precipitation Thanalan gets, it shouldn't be a desert.  That it is seems to be possibly related to the drain Thaumaturgy/Black Magic has on the Aether.  Meaning that it might actually rain that much...though I wish it didn't.  It's so jarring.  >.<

 

I'd love to see a source!

 

Tomorrow, when I get on, I'll go hunting through cutscenes and see if I can find the information.  It was something like...that Black Magic drains the land or had drained the land at some point.  Then again, it might also come from the White Mage quest.  I'LL GO LOOK.

 

 

That said, I'm more liable to believe it's just another moment of game mechanics trumping lore (just like the sizes of the zones - though really, Squee, couldn't you have made them just a teensy tiny bit bigger? They're so cramped!)

 

Ya, that seems the most logical explanation, sadly.  I, too, am really disappointed with how tiny the zones are.  I would like them to be bigger (although they are MUCH bigger than the way the SWTOR zones felt).  I also am irked by being able to see like, shorelines and such that I can't get to.  :frustrated:  I WANNA SWIM OVER THERE.  

[LandStander]

The zones look a lot nicer than they did in 1.0, but they are like half the size ; ;. I liked all the dilapidated cabins and small towns they had and will miss them ; ;.

[TheLastCandle]

The zones look a lot nicer than they did in 1.0, but they are like half the size ; ;. I liked all the dilapidated cabins and small towns they had and will miss them ; ;.

 

I do, too, in a way. At the same time, though, as large as they were, many areas were the epitome of lazy game design.

 

Take the Shroud 1.0, for instance: one gigantic, labyrinthine forest - where everything looks the same. Occasionally you'll find a twist or turn where you have to spiral up a hill and cross a bridge. Those all looked the same, too.

 

It was on the same level as Dragon Age II's caverns/dungeons that were all copy/pastes of the same layout. What I do miss, though, is the mostly seamless game world. Being able to see people running around Lower LL from the upper levels and such.

[Jomoru]

I thought Than was clearly the lush areas near a desert where you might feed people and such

 

It's pretty obviously an Arizona/New Mexico mirror based on the types of plants you see around and the degree of vegetation. The soil looks far too hard packed in some places, too sandy in others to support agriculture. That's why mining is the biggest economy there. La Noscea's where the ag stuff thrives.

 

Then explain the royal plantation at 22 26 in central Than. I'm pretty sure than is supposed to be more like the Middle east enviroment wise, with huge expanses of desert but lush areas where people build cities.

[Naunet]

Then explain the royal plantation at 22 26 in central Than. I'm pretty sure than is supposed to be more like the Middle east enviroment wise, with huge expanses of desert but lush areas where people build cities.

 

I was talking about Eastern Thanalan, hence my comments about Drybone and rain. xP There's a small, likely ephemeral watering hole there, but that's about it. The greenery around the goobbue is all new and brought by the goobbue. Things start to transition once you cross Highbridge, but everything west of that is very New Mexico-y. That doesn't mean it can't support life, and during the rainy season the whole land will be transformed. And of course, wherever you have water (there is a river running through central Thanalan), you will have a concentration of life. Hence, the plantation.

[LiadansWhisper]

Then explain the royal plantation at 22 26 in central Than. I'm pretty sure than is supposed to be more like the Middle east enviroment wise, with huge expanses of desert but lush areas where people build cities.

 

I was talking about Eastern Thanalan, hence my comments about Drybone and rain. xP There's a small, likely ephemeral watering hole there, but that's about it. The greenery around the goobbue is all new and brought by the goobbue. Things start to transition once you cross Highbridge, but everything west of that is very New Mexico-y. That doesn't mean it can't support life, and during the rainy season the whole land will be transformed. And of course, wherever you have water (there is a river running through central Thanalan), you will have a concentration of life. Hence, the plantation.

 

Eh, if we're going to go into that, SE's way of treating rivers makes no sense anyway.  There's a pretty hefty stream/brook outside of Forgotten Springs with 0 greenery around it.  It's basically water randomly running through sand for no discernible reason.

[Ildur]

Any biological or ecological oddity can be solved with this statement:

 

"A wizard Dalamud did it."

 

I'd also like to point out, on a more serious note, that the fact the level designers stink at ecological consistency does not mean we should take that as part of lore. Oddities that make no sense in the real world should be considered as oddities in the game world, too, and theories about why they are as such can be formed on a speculative scale while completely in-character.

[Naunet]

The best we can do is try to make sense of what we're given.

 

You mean the water running to/from the oasis, right? To be fair, we don't really know what's beyond that western edge of the zone. The best we can do is try to make sense of what we see. Due to high evaporation rates in deserts, perennial rivers need to have their source in upland, nondesert areas; it's possible that the land and climate beyond the edge is more conducive to consistent precipitation and (possibly?) snowmelt. It's also important to keep in mind that though, yes, water provides for concentrations of life (and certainly this is the case with the stream in northern Sagolii, as there are animals galore), the soil composition is very important in determining plant life. It takes a special plant to survive in very sandy soils, and it's possible that when the rains do hit, as is typical with deserts, they hit with fury, leading to much erosion and preventing the establishment of advanced ecologies.

 

[edit] Another note: We don't get to observe seasonal changes in-game. It's entirely possible the stream leading to the oasis dries up for part of the year, isolating the Forgotten Springs pools until either the next rainfall.

[LiadansWhisper]

The best we can do is try to make sense of what we're given.

 

You mean the water running to/from the oasis, right? To be fair, we don't really know what's beyond that western edge of the zone. The best we can do is try to make sense of what we see. Due to high evaporation rates in deserts, perennial rivers need to have their source in upland, nondesert areas; it's possible that the land and climate beyond the edge is more conducive to consistent precipitation and (possibly?) snowmelt. It's also important to keep in mind that though, yes, water provides for concentrations of life (and certainly this is the case with the stream in northern Sagolii, as there are animals galore), the soil composition is very important in determining plant life. It takes a special plant to survive in very sandy soils, and it's possible that when the rains do hit, as is typical with deserts, they hit with fury, leading to much erosion and preventing the establishment of advanced ecologies.

 

Sure, but greenery will spring up anywhere water exists, even if it only exists there for a short time.

 

[edit] Another note: We don't get to observe seasonal changes in-game. It's entirely possible the stream leading to the oasis dries up for part of the year, isolating the Forgotten Springs pools until either the next rainfall.

 

Oh god.  DON'T REMIND ME OF WHAT WE COULD HAVE THAT WE DON'T HAVE.  :cry:

 

We could have seasonal changes.  All my sads.  :cry:

[Naunet]

Oh god.  DON'T REMIND ME OF WHAT WE COULD HAVE THAT WE DON'T HAVE.  :cry:

 

We could have seasonal changes.  All my sads.  :cry:

 

Inorite.

 

It would be quite possibly the best thing ever. It might even be almost enough to make me forget we don't have wardrobe slots. Almost.

 

I WANT SEASONS! D:

[Norna]

Oh god.  DON'T REMIND ME OF WHAT WE COULD HAVE THAT WE DON'T HAVE.  :cry:

 

We could have seasonal changes.  All my sads.  :cry:

 

Inorite.

 

It would be quite possibly the best thing ever. It might even be almost enough to make me forget we don't have wardrobe slots. Almost.

 

I WANT SEASONS! D:

Me too!

 

On the geography of Eorzea thing; did I dream it, or was it implied that taking the airship from one city-state to another takes a whole day? I thought for sure that someone said something of that effect when I first traveled.

 

From what I've read, most conventional blimps used to have speeds of up to 50km/h (likely less than 30km/h, though), and some modern ones that I've heard about can go up to 125km/h (I think it was a hybrid, so not full on blimp).

 

I would say that the Eorzean goes up to 50km/h max, considered their open passenger space nature, which suggest a distance of at least 1200km between two city-states. It wouldn't be very comfortable though at those speeds *imagines Lalafells raining from the sky from being blow off airships*, and I think 30km/h is more realistic, which means that it would be 720km between one city-state to the next in the air.

 

Travel by land I would imagine could nearly double the length by having to go over, under and around obstacles. A chocobo constantly running the whole way (I'm gonna use horse's somewhat canter speed of 20km/h), straight-line on flat surface of 720km would take 36 hours.

 

If we say that land speed with obstacles is about 1200km, it takes 60 hours. If we remember that they're supposed to be living beings, we'll have to calculate walk speed, which would be around 170 hours, no eating or sleeping.

 

Adding in eating and sleeping, it seems like it would take around two weeks to travel by chocobo between two of the city-states.

 

Which means that the game-world is really, really condensed. And we now know why the Aethernet, even as it is only useful to adventurers, is being maintained and we're being sent on all these fetch/letter/speak quests; if NPCs did it, it would take a loooong time.

 

And now I have a headache because my brain is allergic to maths (and all the numbers are probably wrong or something).

[LiadansWhisper]

Don't forget that we don't know exactly what the endurance level of a Chocobo is.  Even horses, which have been routinely used for long-distance transport throughout history, can't keep up at a brisk pace.  You have to dismount and walk them periodically if you want them to stay sound, or they'll end up going lame eventually.

[Norna]

If you dismount and walk about a third of the way, assuming you walk briskly, the time would be up to about two and a half to three weeks, if we go by the estimate of 1200km. However, this is only assuming relatively easy to pass obstacles (such as hills/nearby wading spots and bridges) and a relative beeline with no fighting/complications. Maybe a month by chocobo would be more realistic?

 

Add about two-to-three weeks for regular walking. A whole month would be safest to plan for.

 

Harsh terrain (desert/snowstorms/swamps and so on) can double or even triple your time in the area.

[Jomoru]

You can determine how fast you are going there is Eorzea time which is 1 minute for every 3 iRL seconds.

[AvaZope]

The math.

Oh so if we...and...the...birds..moved...in...space...wait...

 

[Norna]

The math.

Oh so if we...and...the...birds..moved...in...space...wait...

 

The numbers are wrong, aren't they? *sighs*

 

Anyone, simplified what I meant: A conscientious chocobo owner who needs to eat and sleep, as well as walking a third of the way to allow the chocobo to rest, and is in a hurry would plan for at least 1 month to get from Gridania to Ul'dah. 1 and a half to 2 months by foot without a chocobo (if you get there a couple of days early, well, at least you don't have to miss anything!).

 

This is assuming that the open type of airship they use take 24 hours between the two (per an off-hand remark by an NPC when I first traveled the airship, which I might have hallucinated or something) as well as going on an average speed of 30km/h.

 

Basically:

24h * 30km = 720km by air.

 

Then I added some distance to account for the fact that walking the earth isn't as plain and straight-forward as going by air, and said 1200km. But for all we know, travelling by land might easily be 1500km, which would probably increase the 1 month to 1 month and 2-3 weeks, and by foot, it would take about 2 months and 1-2 weeks.

[AvaZope]

No, no, I wasn't saying the math was wrong. Just making a silly that regardless of it's correctness, I have trouble understanding it unless it's presented at a third grade level. (Not really...but...almost really.)

 

 

I get your summary though. Thanks for the work, really, I certainly couldn't have reasoned that out, lol. 

[Lament]

The numbers are wrong, aren't they? *sighs*

 

Anyone, simplified what I meant: A conscientious chocobo owner who needs to eat and sleep, as well as walking a third of the way to allow the chocobo to rest, and is in a hurry would plan for at least 1 month to get from Gridania to Ul'dah. 1 and a half to 2 months by foot without a chocobo (if you get there a couple of days early, well, at least you don't have to miss anything!).

 

This is assuming that the open type of airship they use take 24 hours between the two (per an off-hand remark by an NPC when I first traveled the airship, which I might have hallucinated or something) as well as going on an average speed of 30km/h.

 

Basically:

24h * 30km = 720km by air.

 

Then I added some distance to account for the fact that walking the earth isn't as plain and straight-forward as going by air, and said 1200km. But for all we know, travelling by land might easily be 1500km, which would probably increase the 1 month to 1 month and 2-3 weeks, and by foot, it would take about 2 months and 1-2 weeks.

 

This is completely at odds with the one NPC that says Gridania-Horizon took 'a single turn of the sun' on chocobo.

 

It's safe to assume we should be ignoring what NPCs say and just going with whatever headcanon we'd like (provided everyone involved is on the same page).

[Ildur]

We can always pretend the NPC is lying or insane.

 

With that said, we should remember that this is fantasy and we can twist reality a bit. What's more, we can twist it a bit further because this isn't just fantasy but also cooperative storytelling, and nobody wants to spend a month roleplaying walking from one city to the next. Sure, you could go ahead and make a time skip, but then people are just going to get confused, and there are many things that could happen in a month of in-universe time.

 

With the interests of rapidity but also of consistency and coherency in mind, I think stating that it takes a week of travel from Gridania to Limsa Lominsa is decent enough. It gives you time to roleplay the journey if you want, and if you decide to skip it for whatever reason you do not break the flow of everyone's micro-canonical chronology too much.

Though, of course, if you want it to take a month you can also go with that. But I do not feel that is fast enough for a fantasy setting where most characters are controlled by a person. We all have things to do, after all.