Player Housing

[Ildur]

You seem to think there are many different and plausible ways of making lots of money. But this is not the case. The only FC's I know that managed to buy houses were those selling Primal runs.

Using the market board, which would be go-to option, is an absolute joke thanks to rampant undercutting (which is caused by there not being a tax for listing items) and there not being anything worth crafting (and those items that sell for 200k or more usually eat 90% of that in the process of making them in the first place). A member of my FC, before housing, was crafting and trying to make a profit with it. Then the prices were announced and she just went "welp! That's it for me!" because she wasn't making enough of a difference. And if we gathered a bunch of people and made them craft? That wouldn't be enough either. Raiding earnings are not enough, and mine is a raiding FC. I have literally no idea how Squee expects people to make money beyond endlessly grinding mobs. There are no markets to be filled. And as soon as there's one? Rampant undercutting smashes it to the ground.

 

You also seem to think that people are refusing to buy houses because they don't want to spend the money. In reality, people don't buy the houses because they don't have the money. I don't know why you'd think they do. They, like me, see no way how you could get anything without transforming the game into a half-time work. Not everyone logs in for 8 hours a day.

 

This has nothing to do with people not wanting to share and all with people wanting houses and not having the possibility to buy them thanks to the prices being not just out of reach but completely out of sight. Yeah, I know how much money I'll need for an FC house in three months. But how do I get there without compromosing my fun? I certainly can't get there just by playing normally. Because if that was the case, my raiding FC would be at least close to get one. But we aren't. Nobody bothers with it.

 

Addendum: Why do we have to 'deserve' player housing? I don't understand this.

[Aldotsk]

You seem to think there are many different and plausible ways of making lots of money. But this is not the case. The only FC's I know that managed to buy houses were those selling Primal runs.

Using the market board, which would be go-to option, is an absolute joke thanks to rampant undercutting (which is caused by there not being a tax for listing items) and there not being anything worth crafting (and those items that sell for 200k or more usually eat 90% of that in the process of making them in the first place). A member of my FC, before housing, was crafting and trying to make a profit with it. Then the prices were announced and she just went "welp! That's it for me!" because she wasn't making enough of a difference. And if we gathered a bunch of people and made them craft? That wouldn't be enough either. Raiding earnings are not enough, and mine is a raiding FC. I have literally no idea how Squee expects people to make money beyond endlessly grinding mobs. There are no markets to be filled. And as soon as there's one? Rampant undercutting smashes it to the ground.

 

You also seem to think that people are refusing to buy houses because they don't want to spend the money. In reality, people don't buy the houses because they don't have the money. I don't know why you'd think they do. They, like me, see no way how you could get anything without transforming the game into a half-time work. Not everyone logs in for 8 hours a day.

 

This has nothing to do with people not wanting to share and all with people wanting houses and not having the possibility to buy them thanks to the prices being not just out of reach but completely out of sight. Yeah, I know how much money I'll need for an FC house in three months. But how do I get there without compromosing my fun? I certainly can't get there just by playing normally. Because if that was the case, my raiding FC would be at least close to get one. But we aren't. Nobody bothers with it.

 

Perhaps you've thought that just doing 20 runs of WP in a week while you are farming Mythology actually can earn you from 100k-250k plus selling the Philosophy Mats? That totals up to at least 400k per week. Not only that, just farming up at the Eastern La Noscea is your second choice to farm Apkallu Eggs or even Red Corals through fishing is considerably well profit for many people. Even spirit binding weapons that you receive from dungeons and turning them into materias consider well amount of money. There are always ways to make money even if it may be 100 gil or 10000 gill. Just because one doesn't make 100k-500k gils per item does not mean you can't get the FC house. Also, prices have been going down drastically to be fair for everyone. Going from 320 million to 80 million for large plot as well as 97 million to 22 million is a huge change. It's still a lot for many people like my FC too. But what can you do? And no, farming myths while doing these dungeons shouldn't really compromise anything. You -don't- have to log on 8 hours per day to achieve any of these. I am aware that you probably said that to exaggerate it, but there are many alternatives besides "Selling Primal runs". - and yes Crafting Philo items and selling them means nothing now if it's not HQ anymore. But 25-35k per gear is still actually not bad even if it's normal quality.

 

It was not a personal attack.  Also, aren't you personally attacking anyone who disagrees with you by claiming that they just don't want to "share"?

 

I want to share.  I want an FC house.  My FC can't afford one.  I've personally sunk several million gil into my FC's house fund to try to get one, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.  What upsets me about what you are saying is that you want to deny other people enjoyment because you cannot get your FC members to invest in an FC house.  I don't want a personal house because I don't want to "share."  I want a personal house because a) I would like personal space that isn't an inn room and b) my FC can't afford a house.

 

I think you have missed my point. I have not actually said that this involves in my FC. I've seen people post like that as if they just don't care about what they do in the FC but just not contribute at all even outside of funding for FC. I think that's just unsportsman-like attitude. 

 

I can get my investment into my FC. Also I only complained about people should not deserve player housing until people can fulfill FC housing fully on 5 wards. Is that wrong? I am pretty sure I can't buy all 5 wards of houses, rather I am speaking for everyone's sake rather than people who want their houses on their own instead of helping the FC out one bit. 

 

Just because I complained about "No one helps FC" does not mean it was implied as "My FC does not help me". I don't know where you have got that idea first of all.

[Ildur]

Clearly, because what I want to do in a game is repetitive, mindless tasks repeated across all the week. Remember my comment about not wanting to make the game a job to get the house? All your suggestions are variations of "transform it into a job" and complete ignorance of how bonkers and unnatural the market and how useless crafting is.

 

Give me something that doesn't take the fun out of the game.

[Aldotsk]

Clearly, because what I want to do in a game is repetitive, mindless tasks repeated across all the week. Remember my comment about not wanting to make the game a job to get the house? All your suggestions are variations of "transform it into a job" and complete ignorance of how bonkers and unnatural the market and how useless crafting is.

 

Give me something that doesn't take the fun out of the game.

 

What you are saying is that you really don't want to do anything that considers as farming or grinding to put an effort of making a profit to buy anything. Is that correct?

 

How are you expecting to buy a player house if you believe that farming for Gil is considered as a job and feel that it is taking the fun out of the game? I am sorry if I am not getting your logic here, but I can see Liadrin's point - but your point seems a bit out of focus on what you are trying to argue.

[Naunet]

How are you expecting to buy a player house if you believe that farming for Gil is considered as a job and feel that it is taking the fun out of the game? I am sorry if I am not getting your logic here, but I can see Liadrin's point - but your point seems a bit out of focus on what you are trying to argue.

 

If Squee weren't off their rocker, they would design personal housing in a way that a small, basic one is provided free (or extremely cheap) to everyone, with larger/different upgrades available for gil/rep/whatever.

 

There's a certain MMO where I've got five dimensions (though two can only be active and accessible at any given time). One is a small, simple location that was provided after completing an introductory quest about dimensions. Another I got with rep. Another I got by completing dailies during a world event to collect a certain number of that world event's token currency - no plat spent there at all! Two more were loyalty rewards. There are dozens more, some available with plat, others during world events, and so on. And that's just the base dimension; I can't even begin to describe the sheer magnitude and creative breadth of the items you can place in them and how you can arrange them.

 

Twin got a dimension recently that looks like this as a base:

 

He's currently working on building a chapel over the lake, complete with a stained glass window (colors made from candles, bolts of cloth, books, and other objects).

 

Oh, and talk about creative freedom! All those things in the screenshots? Created through creative placement, rotation, and resizing of various dimension items.

 

Yea... Squee can call me when they've put actual work into their housing system.

[CalebAgron]

Incidentally: making individual houses more expensive than FC ones makes character housing absolutely irrelevant. Why would you use more money on your own house when you can get the same place for much cheaper and faster with an FC? Why even implement personal housing if the only purpose is for it to make FC houses comparatively better? It's like saying you are going to place a pile of crap next to a trash can so people appreciate the can better. Instead of doing that, why don't you just put the pile of crap inside the trash can? Why the impracticality?

 

That seems to be what he wants, though.  He appears to be upset that no one wants to work for an FC house, so they should make player housing more expensive so that people will then want to work on an FC house.

 

No, because it was originally set by Yoshi-P that he wanted people to buy the FC houses BEFORE we even deserve to receive personal housing. Why should he allow any of you to have a personal housing when you guys don't even limit yourselves to actually fund a bigger house? There are plenty of other FCs who actually contributed because they want to share the house and RP together. If you feel like the FC houses are expensive, there are many other ways to gain money and sell items. Even selling shards/crystals/clusters even gain you money. Whichever works out for you.

 

and FYI:

I had been paying my own money to fund for my own FC. So please don't jump into conclusions before you make a simplistic accusations unless you are trying to insult me. The house isn't for my own. It is there for others who are in my FC. I just think that personal house is not needed as of right now until 2.6-3.0 because FC houses are still not filled up, like the devs and Yoshi-P said. They had been dropping prices down more and more and if people still refuse to buy them - then that's more delays for players to gain their personal house.

 

This doesn't make people want to help you buy an FC house.  TBH, if I was in your FC and read this, I'd refuse to donate anything at all.

 

I appreciate your personal attacks, but I don't think that still will change how I see in personal housing comparing to FC housing. I find the mind of people's attitude to be extremely negative and shallow because they don't want to share their houses with people and wants things for their own. 

 

Large/Medium plot size for FC house should remain as the largest plot for player housing should be what small plot size FC house is currently if that's the case.

She reminds me of the wow players, the ones that were not happy unless they were the "special snowflake" that had the ultra rare mount and got some sick and twisted pleasure out of being the envy of everyone else. Capitalism at its best comes to mind lol.

 

I've never understood this mindset, maybe its because I'm a socialist whore! But I could give two shiznits what other people have, I don't feel any need to be a "special snowflake" and if everyone in the game was given a free large house I'd take no issue with this.

 

And I don't ever see myself investing in a FC house at the rates they are currently at. Even at max reduction 26 mil is just too much period. And -IF- the idea is true that they would base player housing off the success rate of FC housing shows how absolutely out of touch with reality the devs are, because FC housing is doomed from the start to be a failure with the prices they were put up as.

 

Anyway this is all speculation at this point, until there is an official announcement we don't know how personal housing will pan out. Other then the reassurance given by Yoshi that they WILL be cheaper then FC housing.

[Aldotsk]

There's a certain MMO where I've got five dimensions (though two can only be active and accessible at any given time). One is a small, simple location that was provided after completing an introductory quest about dimensions. Another I got with rep. Another I got by completing dailies during a world event to collect a certain number of that world event's token currency - no plat spent there at all! Two more were loyalty rewards. There are dozens more, some available with plat, others during world events, and so on. And that's just the base dimension; I can't even begin to describe the sheer magnitude and creative breadth of the items you can place in them and how you can arrange them.

 

Twin got a dimension recently that looks like this as a base:

 

Yea... Squee can call me when they've put actual work into their housing system.

 

Unlocking first smallest plot sounds like Sim City (newest one) except that wasn't really MMO imo. But the way you said does sound a good idea for those who don't want to make gil. But in the end, there will be those who might complain that collecting token gets boring and impossible to do.

 

And that's another result of having fun disappearing. But I remember Yoshi-P did say this during his first time when 2.1 was being announced (for this live chat) - something along the line related to:

"... Only the players who have spent amount of time as they have spent amount of effort deserve the housings and rewards."

 

In other words, even if it may be dreadful or boring - if you've spent your efforts on saving money/token whatever... you'll pretty much be rewarded. Whether it may be first come first serve or last come, last serve.

 

 

She reminds me of the wow players, the ones that were not happy unless they were the "special snowflake" that had the ultra rare mount and got some sick and twisted pleasure out of being the envy of everyone else. Capitalism at its best comes to mind lol. 

 

I've never understood this mindset, maybe its because I'm a socialist whore! But I could give two shiznits what other people have, I don't feel any need to be a "special snowflake" and if everyone in the game was given a free large house I'd take no issue with this.

 

I guess that "She", was directed to me. 

 

Though I am a bit confused about this statement.

[synaesthetic]

Square Enix needs to hire me as their conceptual planner, because I could make them all filthy fuckin' rich.

 

All I'd do is spend my day playing every other profitable MMO on the market, spending the whole time taking notes. Every time I saw a feature that I found awesome, I'd write it down, and then demand that the dev team implement something like that in the next big patch.

 

People are really silly and fail to remember why World of Warcraft was so wildly successful.

 

It was not because Blizzard caught lightning in a bottle. It was not because the celestial alignment was perfect for the first time in 200,000 years. It was not even because Blizzard's rabid fanbase provided critical mass (Square's rabid fanbase is even bigger!) and put them in the position to be the top MMO dog.

 

No.

 

The reason that World of Warcraft was so wildly successful and made Blizzard an absolutely insane amount of money is simple:

 

They looked at all the other major MMOs on the market, played them, read their forums, talked to their players, found all of the really great features, and used them. They found all the bits that the players didn't like, and discarded them.

 

Why do no MMO devs do this? Why did only Blizzard think this far through? Why is every other MMO developer simply derping their way through it and making all of the exact same mistakes every other MMO developer has made?

 

Learn from the mistakes of your peers, damn it. Stop repeating them.

[Naunet]

Preach it.

[Illira]

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[CalebAgron]

AMEN!

[Dakki]

Not getting involved, but... Really digging yourself a hole here, Aldotsk.

 

Just to maintain my neutrality, I give you the infamously homophobic state of Russia's military doing perhaps the gayest thing I have ever seen. *Mandatory "For teh lulz"*

 

P08B_lBUL0E

[Steel Wolf]

That post above is why I love Asgarn, and will vote him in to a position of power (President, Prime Minister, Emperor) when he runs for office.

 

On topic....

 

It's been said leading in to 2.1 that player housing will be significantly less costly.  That said, buying a Corolla is significantly less expensive than a Murcielago...but which is more fun?

 

Honestly, I don't see personal housing having more of a benefit than being fluff--a place that's your own in the world and that isn't just an inn room.  Not to discredit that, of course, since Rift is doing AMAAAAZING things with their fluffy Dimensions system, but the benefits being offered to those with an FC house right now are significantly more than those with a personal house (at least right now, since we're not sure what activities will or will not be tied to personal housing).

 

FC housing, to me, seems more fun--a base of operations, a place for people to gather in neighborhoods for RP good times, an area that will eventually provide personal and FC-wide benefits.  So, with all that said, I do believe you have to earn the benefits...but not at the expense of fun.  There's a fine line between grinding your eyeballs into jelly and playing the game and doing its activities because they're fun or provide a sense of adventure.

 

We all remember XI, yes?  Getting the chocobo license?  For those who maybe are not aware, the privilege to even rent a bird required one to sit in a stable and stare at a chocobo's cornhole for HOURS to feed the stupid thing gyshal greens at the appointed hour.

 

Yes, you earned the privilege....but it was NOT.  FUN.

 

This isn't one of those calls for "easy mode lolol" or the argument for damn dirty casuals.  This is a reference of how NOT to do things.  ARR has been a gambit that has paid off for SE significantly--a first of its kind and an unprecedented achievement.  They have to keep focus on why this game has worked so well....a combination of the right "elder MMO' attitudes with streamlined systems and methods to make it fun for all types of players.

[synaesthetic]

oh god getting the chocobo license was absurdly stupid.

[Ildur]

I'm sure Squee would be ridicolously happy if the MMO player base was still willing to keep up with that crap. Then they wouldn't need to release meaningful and well-designed content anymore. Instead, they would only need to release the new big grinding checkpoint so that their players can keep mindlessly clicking on the same fantasy penguins (or their new, higher level variants!) and running the quickest and easiest dungeon available ad nauseam to reach it.

 

Sadly for them, players aren't as resistant to the grind as they were before. Which is a good thing.