Khadan

I can't agree that it's an informed opinion since we've identified a lack of actual facts but I will agree that you have reasonable cause for suspicion. =) I'd also like to expand on your second point and say that I'm -very- interested see how far being a staunch Halonist really reflects in Ishgardian society. Especially since, unlike the theocratic monarchies of IRL past, we have tangible evidence of the power of the Twelve in Eorzea.

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either. Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian? If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter? Are you taking a discussion on lore to be a personal matter of whom and whom I do not wish to RP with? I'm just saying your putting forth a statement that if there isn't complete, concrete proof on a matter, then you're not allowed to say it might for RP purposes. Which is dangerously close to telling people how they can RP. I can see where your concern comes from, actually. There does seem to a few people that believe or alarmingly allude to "RP'ing things properly" here and there in these forums. In my post history, though, I've staunchly declared against such things and will obviously continue to do so. My involvement in this part of the conversation stems from the notion that certain ideas can be uttered as fact without any real evidence or proof and others just sort of hit the ground running with it which, ironically, would then cause a sort of bandwagon mentality wherin someone who comes in and doesn't observe what has been asserted to be fact doesn't acknowledge it and is then questioned, derided, or even belittled for not being on said bandwagon. That's where I have umbrage. Other than that, if people wish to RP that their characters were the victims of some overarching racism or oppression and somehow rise through the ranks regardless? I think that's pretty neat. My very Ishgardian character might find it odd that they experienced so much racism and wish to ask them why it happened or what the circumstances were as he had never witnessed or experienced such a thing in his homeland, but that really just makes for interesting character discourse. =)

Close. It was more of pointing out that you asserted something without citing a source (the burden of proof is on you), based on something we don't know (and appears to be conjecture) and then didn't so much as admit a mistake as you did brush off being wrong and giving it a resounding "Well I don't know anyway so meh." Close, though. Are you attempting to provoke me into a discussion on semantics? I won't take that bait if so. I "brushed it off" because it wasn't the topic at hand and, as I said, it wasn't a firm thing that I even stated. It was, at best, an aside, and as it turns out there's no proof of it (one way or the other, mind you). So I guess I don't understand what you're trying to prove here in regards to Ishgard suddenly somehow being this racist hegemony.

In keeping with the theme of speculative lore talkings I'll probably say that they are likely individuals who've had enough and/or been dicked over enough to drop their flags and pick up the greatsword to 'deal with the issue'. The term 'Pariah' is used which makes me think that even the citizens they are trying to protect/save are perhaps afraid of them or don't understand their cause. It's sort of like the vigilante who kills a man who is a rapist even though he donates money to charities, feeds the poor, and defends his people with vigilance. Some may see it as a great wrong to lose this 'great man' but the Dark Knight knows he is someone who does horrible things in private, etc. This is, overall, a very interesting take on an age old concept. I'm not sure I can really get behind the greatsword tank, myself, but I think I can easily say that I love the concept and it's one I've played in often before. I even planned on taking my character down a similar path (without the Dark Knight stuff) before this lore drop hit. I'm not sure if I'll still do it. Though I imagine that Dark Knights don't get to hold the monopoly on dispensing justice to bad people. =P

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either. Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian? If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter? Are you taking a discussion on lore to be a personal matter of whom and whom I do not wish to RP with?

Cross-racial? -adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more “progressive.” Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesn’t happen a lot. It’s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union. I understand the smart phone woes, truly. My thumbs are fat and full of terrors and when I'm on the bus it's like trying to write calligraphy during an epileptic fit. You're correct, they don't evaporate, but inundation does tend to dilute racism. Will individuals always be racist little buggers? Of course. Will entire cultures be this way when they're intermixed so pervasively? It's less likely. I like to think of Limsa Lominsa being this great example of what happens when different races and cultures are all rubbing elbows with one another.

I think we know all we need to know to say "racism exists". Because Word of God has mandated that it exists. What remains to be determined is the specifics of that racism, how it is applied, to what degree, and to whom. Maybe Ishgardians don't like miqo'te because they get hair everywhere, but they think Roe are pretty alright because they tend to give dragons indigestion? We don't know, but hopefully we will find out in Heavensward. It's a good thing no one said racism doesn't exist! But yes I agree completely, otherwise. Wait and see is the best course of action when you've no actual proof of $thing. I'm patient enough to wait. =)

Flipping script again here. With what proof is the first one fair? Have we seen any events in game where someone got in trouble for being racist? Keep in mind that the multi-racial cooperation - and, to wit, the cooperation between the Eorzean Alliance - is, from how I understand it (I believe it was mentioned somewhere but the exact reference eludes me) wrought solely because Garlemand was knocking at their doors saying "Hi, we want your stuff." As soon as the threat passed, they returned to their own internal squabbles without much care about what was going on in the other nations. As for the second. If there is a cultural norm for all of Eorzea (as stated by someone on the lore team), wouldn't it be normal to believe that a nation within the borders of Eorzea would follow these cultural norms? I would figure it would be only natural to assume that one would require proof as to why they are different from everyone else, rather than the same. It's interesting that all pretense to this pervasive "Culture of systematic and violent racism" suddenly just vanishes as if it was never there the moment a foreign invader comes knocking. It's almost as if that culture of racism isn't as rampant as we thought... In all seriousness, though, we only have hundreds of years of prior history stating "there were wars; people DIED man!" and in the past... let's say 50 years? Almost no examples of racial warring. No Elezen declared war on Hyur or even enacted mass killings on them OR even said "Only Elezen, no Hyur!" We've zero poof of that. What we do have is many, MANY instances of the supposed racial tensions being overcome so often that it begins to beg the question: Are Eorzeans really racist or are they just all brought up in a pseudo-xenophobic fashion because sociologically people gravitate towards their own and this is, inherently, what tends to breed any form of racism at all? Though if that were the case we would have "strictly $race communities" and we don't. There seems to be an interesting mix of all races living, more or less, in harmony with one another in every part of the world. Hell, even the Ishgardians and their history of violence with the Hyur seem to be okay with having Midlanders make up 30-35% of their population. That's pretty astounding for a culture of racism, really. All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

I'm not fully disagreeing with you. I'm just saying we don't know for a fact that it is the case. =)

Take just a second. To do what? I was never firm on the biological issue and later admitted my error as you can observe for yourself. You've proven that, what, I said something and had no proof of it and then later said "okay I was wrong"? Thank you for pointing out my ability to admit a mistake which is generally a positive trait.

Yes we do know that the major Houses are entirely Elezen (three Wildwood, one Duskwight). There's no evidence of non-Elezen Houses, so I can I turn your own mantra against you? Evidence please :-] The reason the houses are Elezen is because they were there first. Its their city. Hyur are newcomers who have integrated over the past several centuries. The reason Elezen are better and more important is because its their city. Hyur are newcomers. Its not much of a leap. I disagree entirely. Racism is the standard in Eorzea. We know that Ishgard society is racially segregated at the very top (there simply are none but Elezen there). It is possible that beneath this very top layer this situation simply ceases to exist, and all live with harmony united by their common religious conviction; however, this just does not agree with my intuition. It is possible (as I said, we don't know) but I think this is a significantly greater logical leap than to assume that the same stratification is the norm all the way down. Evidence in the case of a yes/no proposition tends to settle the matter! And I would again turn your presumption on the head. National and cultural racism are the norm in Eorzea. To weight to overturn the proposition rests on those attempting to claim it does not exist. You've misread. I stated that you do not know if ALL the houses in Ishgard are Elezen. That was to state that there are more than the Big 4, which there are. You're basing too much on your intuition and you disagreeing is irrelevant since thus far you've failed to prove your claim of systematic racism in Ishgard. You claim a cultural Norm in Eorzea that is consistently proven to be false by the sheer amount of multi-racial cooperation that goes on every day, not only among the armed forces (though that is predominant), but also in in the aristocracies and bureaucracies of every city state. I think it might be fair to say that, "Racial tension, conflict, and divides were the norm at one time" but if you started to spout racial propaganda in public at any city state you'd likely be met with trouble. Finally: Ishgard being geographically a part of "Eorzea" does not in fact prove your point. Genetic/Composition-division fallacy is still strongly at play, here. You need to provide proof otherwise. In conclusion you can't shift burden of proof when you are the one making the claim. It doesn't work that way, sorry. You have made very strong claims to Ishgard's supposedly 'racist' culture with literally zero proof other than fallacious assertions. The burden of proof lies on you, since all I've done thus far is say "I don't believe what you're claiming based on the information you're providing". I would like to state that this isn't an attack on you as some posters are getting a little heated. Let's remember that this is a disagreement in discussion only.

If I can flip the script for a second - do we have any proof that there isn't racism? Or at the very least, none of the discrimination that - as stated by the lore team in the provided quotes - is quite common in Eorzea as a whole? What proof is there that Ishgard bucks the trend of the provided truth of races not liking each other that is so different from the rest of Eorzea? I'm just saying that - if the idea that Ishgard has a racist society is conjecture due to lack of evidence, then so too is saying that they aren't without also providing evidence. See that's why we have 'burden of proof' which lies on the person making the claim(s). =) Otherwise we're just swimming in the sea of Composition/Division fallacy.

When discussing a nation we know almost nothing about in a region teeming with racial conflict and with vast histories of racial conflict, it is safe to assume that nation has no racial conflict? I think the correct position would be to assert that there is no safe assumption. It's almost as if you're vying on the side of "wait and see because we don't have enough information". I could hug you.

You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim. That's the main one. That... what? No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing. No, the statements straight up say that crossbreeds are possible... but don't happen all that often because interracial couples are rare. Not due to the difficulty in conception, but because the races do not like each other. There is bad blood between the races. This is being directly stated in the quotes, which Kage has actually bolded for emphasis. EDIT: Man, getting beaten to the punch time and time again here. Again, as I've explained to Kage three times now, it still is NOT evidence that Ishgard is a racist state.

You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim. That's the main one. That... what? No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing. And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs. Did you miss how -none- of the lore answer ever, ever mentions a difficulty in biology? It -clearly states, AND I BOLDED FOR YOU, -cultural- differences. CULTURAL. It can't be any clearer. They even make a point of MAKING A 3.0 QUEST, IMPLYING ISHGARDIAN ISSUE, about a cross-racial couple. You mean, how elezen and hyur have been in bloody racial wars? What is more proof than Lore answers from lore peoples? Taken from this thread answered almost 4 years ago Edit: I'm truly not understanding the walling about it. Is this, "well that's a mainly Eorzean case, I'm talking about Ishgard." If it's Ishgard, where I assume these issues have come about, isn't this supportive? Isn't the fact that Fern has made a point, that the dev team has made a quest in 3.0 about cross-racial couples being an issue, supportive? Not to mention the fact that they've said in these answers that it's cultural. Calm down. Okay so there's no biological issue cited, I guess, though they could be there, we don't know and it's not a topic I really tread often because... meh? Anyway the whole rest of this isn't in any way supportive of "Isghardians are racist". It's a logical leap that you'd need a pole vault to get across at this point. What you could assert, though, is that "An Ishgardian $person having offspring with a non-Ishgardian $person could be looked down on because non-Ishgardian $person is an 'outsider'" The only thing that is consistent here is "outsider". I don't deal in conjecture, sir. I deal in logical conclusions drawn from actual data.

Based on? We can go around and around about this all day, honestly, but in the end you're asserting an awful lot with little-to-no information to back up anything you've said. Are some of your assertions -plausible-? ...Maybe. I don't think they are likely in the way that you are putting them, though. For example: We don't know for sure that all the houses in Ishgard are Elezen and/or that only Elezen are part of the aristocracy. What we DO know is that Elezen are the majority population, thus increasing the chances that they will reach 'station' by population density alone. This is a romantic notion but that's all it is. There's no evidence of any cultural racism within Ishgard. It only flies in the face of what we know if we accept the very little we do know as the 'end all; be all'. Luckily that would be irrational and something that most people would avoid doing. Does your opinion that "It is likely that non-Elezen may have a harder time advancing in society" a possible and probable one? Yes, if not just from population density then from cultural examples of the Elezen seeming to be primarily the ones in positions of power. Is that evidence of racism? Still no. It MIGHT be argued that there is a class-privilege issue, though, but I won't back that horse without some more data. We would still have great cause to speak of it, actually. Evidence is what causes discussion to occur with actual logical debate. Without evidence you're just arguing conjecture and that ain't no way to be, mayun. So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.

You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim. That's the main one. That... what? No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing. And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs.

These seem like reasonable conclusions based on information we actually DO have.

This actually sounds a bit more like Nationalism as opposed to racism. Though racism tends to be a component in aggressive nationalist states. *Quickly dives for cover and hides Political Science hat* What we know about Ishgard and the world itself lends itself naturally to the conclusion that Ishgard is highly and systematically rascist. It is not proven, perhaps l, but is an easy inference. I think that it tries to cultivate religio-nationalistic sentiment in its cannon-fodd... I mean in its citizenry is beyond obvious Your assumption is categorically false. What we know about Ishgard says nothing of the sort. Again, the data isn't there. Provide data to prove your assertions/claims, otherwise we're just arguing what we want to see, not what is.

Wasn't there a developer comment or post or something that straight up said how the races hated each other in response to a question on crossbreeds? I think it's been quoted every time the topic comes up. Also the WPHM quest's gay couple that's hated on more for being two different races rather than their genders - that one keeps being brought up too. Brought up by whom? Um... whoever needs an official reference to why crossbreeds are an uncommon thing? I mean, look through some of the threads about whether or not races can crossbreed and stuff and those details get mentioned. I mean, I can hunt them down and quote the quote if needed, but I've seen it pop up often enough in those threads I figured it was basically an understood by this point. EDIT: Or Kage'll just have them handy, haha. :lol: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.

Wasn't there a developer comment or post or something that straight up said how the races hated each other in response to a question on crossbreeds? I think it's been quoted every time the topic comes up. Also the WPHM quest's gay couple that's hated on more for being two different races rather than their genders - that one keeps being brought up too. Brought up by whom? Anyway yeah there's racial tension in the world. That was never disputed as far as I know. The question currently, though I don't know why to be honest: "Is Ishgard Racist". To which, in of itself, we have very little-to-no evidence of in game or, really, out of game for. Elezen may not like Highlanders or Roe, or Lalafellin may hate everyone (no, really, Lalafell are probably the most racist group in all of Eorzea given the examples in game), but as a society/culture? Gridanians consistently seem to decry Duskwights and outsiders in general, Ul'Dahns disparage the Ala Mhigans and turn away the Domans. Ishgard just doesn't want any of your filthy 'thought crimes' seeping into their theocracy. Is it Orwellian? Sure. Is it kinda dumb? Also sure. But is it -racist-? Nah. Note: I actually can understand why as a society that the Ishgardians have developed the way they have. Warrior nations tend to be very dogmatic as a system of enforcing and reinforcing their cultural decisions. Especially in the face of a 1000 year war against enemies that apparently can shapeshift and infiltrate your ranks as well as mind control your citizens by simply looking into their eyes. Having an established and rigid cultural guideline makes it harder for Dravanian agents to infiltrate unless you're a Holy See Inquisitor, apparently, who knew?

Are we shifting to a discussion on socio-political issues now? Well in light of my previous post on population which was largely ignored because data is hard I'll just jump in on this segue and say that, much like a population census, if you want to actually make a claim for the existence of cultural racism then you need examples. Like perhaps a majority of the NPC's saying "Man Miqo'te are lame and I don't like them because reasons" or "Lalafell are popatos and creepy and we should boil em, mash em, and stick em in a stew" or whatnot. Systematic racism is only 'systematic' when the majority of the people in said system feel the same way. Unlike tumblr racism where it exists because muh feelz and someone on a blog said so. Provide data to back up your claims/assertions and from there we proceed. =) btw Gridania is pretty effing racist. Also Ul'Dah against Ala Mhigans.

Nothing and nothing but if you read my post I covered this.

It's a good point, but it'll just get handwaved away as "Well it's not conclusive, they just left them elezen and hyur for programming reasons." Edit: And it ISN'T conclusive, because we don't know what's inside the city still. Luckily I never stated it was conclusive! =) HOWEVER it is a good sampling of what we can expect out of Ishgardian society as a whole. I'll also say that once we do get into the city and get to look around it will be -after- the gates have opened and a flood of PC's and NPC's alike will swarm in, thus completley ruining the point of the census as it is now and probably make a complete hash of any actual data that there is. I guess we'll see! For now, though, this is the baseline I base my interpretations of population in Ishgard off of because it's the data we actually have. Not wishful thinking, not wants, just plain data.

Hey! Read this, nerds. I know I've been over this before but it seems to bear repeating. In response to the "room full of Elezen" being used to categorically deny the existence of Miqo'te in Ishgardian society (and its subsequent retort of BUT THERE WAS LIKE ONE IN 1.0!!) I'll just reiterate again: There is no substantiating lore stating that "No Miqo'te live in Ishgard". HOWEVER There IS substantiating lore stating that Miqo'te hate/are intolerant to/won't live in the cold. Coerthas is pretty cold. It wasn't always cold or as cold, though, so if we give it the benefit of the doubt that there were, at some point, a substantial population of Miqo'te there then it's likely they didn't stay thus making an already tiny population of Miqo'te even smaller than it was previously represented. On to the meat and potatoes: In 1.0 there was a single npc Miqo'te in the Ishgardian forces. I unfortunately am not able to obtain a population sample size from 1.0 because 1.0 isn't around anymore. I AM able to obtain a sample size from 2.0 and onward, though. Some quick numbers from my GREAT ISHGARDIAN CENSUS wherein I ride around Coerthas and count up NPC's like some nerd. Elezen Ishgardians in Coerthas: 161 Midlander Ishgardians in Coerthas: 45 No Miqo'te, Highlander, Roegadyn, or Lalafell Ishgardians present. There is one anomalous Roegadyn in a prison cell under Whitebrim but we don't know if he's a resident or a visitor. I also didn't count Grand Company NPC's, Fate NPC's, Battle Wardens, or NPC's that were obviously not Ishgardian (based on dialogue, dress, or other factors. I did count the Chocobo Porters, though. My numbers may be off by one or two in either direction of Elezen to Midlanders, so sue me; doesn't change the overall result of the census data. So what do these numbers tell us? Well it tells us that the population ratio in Ishgard is likely somewhere around 35% Midlander to 65% Elezen. If we round our numbers the percentages still equate to about 30% to 70% respectively. Seems reasonable, right? What bout the Miqo'te, you say? Well as I've stated before we have to account for outliers like our mystery guard from 1.0 and maybe the anomalous Roe in the prison cell (or the one in Costa if you want to split hairs). From there we simply point out that as there are no examples in our sample size we give them an automatic .5% (which is generous in the terms of a true census, when targeted populations are actually represented in the sample size as zero) and say that for every 130 Elezen and 70 Midlanders, you might see -maybe one- Miqo'te, Roe, Lalafell, -OR- (not and) Highlander. I.e. 200 majority to 1 minority. Is this me planting a flag and saying "THIS IS FACT YOU HAVE TO OBEY THIS!", Nah, not really. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to rp things properly, after all ;-P What this does do, however, is give people a baseline of population density based on a reasonable sample size presented in the game as we know it now. So you can take that and run with it however you wish. tl;dr nope read it you lazy dweebs.