ansemaru

Okay, revising my question: have we any precedent for the Voidsent doing that? They seem to primarily stick to dungeons and dark places of the world unless specifically summoned, and the worst that show up in the world at large are trickster imps. We know that the elementals are evidently incapable of warding these creatures off, so it's not surprising that they wouldn't be able to drive them away from this man, but at the same time I really have to wonder how likely it is for Voidsent to sneak into a person's home, wake him, and depart without him seeing them. I'd honestly put more faith in this NPC being an untrained hearer than on the idea that he's got secret Voidsent breaking into his home. Occam's Razor and all that.

Though this pertains to lore, rather than gameplay, I feel like it belongs more in this thread as it is not directly RP-related, nor is it IC like the Rattlepack Guide. There's been a lot of debate lately about subjects pertaining to Gridanian culture, and in particular their xenophobia/racism, the role of elementals in shaping this culture, and the degree to which elementals actually hold power. I would know, having been at the heart of this. But I do quite dislike debates in which the parties involved cannot cite sources for their information. So I undertook an endeavor. Over the course of an evening, I walked across the Black Shroud, and talked to every NPC. South Shroud, East Shroud, Central Shroud, North Shroud, Gridania. I revisited the handful of ARC and CNJ cutscenes available to me in the inn, and the cutscenes from the Sylph-related leg of the main story plot. But having started out in Limsa Lominsa, and having not played any of the Gridania-based classes past level 20 or so, I was limited to primarily screencapping just the conversations available to any player talking to the NPCs in towns, outside dungeons, and scattered about at the various spires in the Shroud. I also took the time to go over the text for dungeons, guildhests, and levequests in the region, though those were once again limited by my levels in the relevant classes. The results were interesting- I gathered around one hundred and sixty screencaps of various relevance to the elementals, Gridanian culture, and xenophobia. Obviously, I cannot dump every last one of them in this thread or really anywhere else, but I'm curious: are people interested in seeing the sum total of easily-accessed information regarding these things compiled into one place? Additionally, I took some time to gather information regarding primals, beast tribes, and aether. These are a bit less extensive, due to the fact that a portion of relevant dialogue is in plot conversations not covered by the cutscenes available for rewatching at the inn, and the beast tribe research was limited by my decision to survey the Black Shroud specifically. But there is some very interesting information there, especially when some of the text from the SMN quest line is taken into consideration.

Are there any precedents for the undead or Voidsent actively communicating to people through dreams, though? IIRC the only Voidsent that actually gets anything approaching speech attributed to it is Mormo in the THM quest line.

There is also an NPC in the Conjurers' Guild who makes mention of being haunted by "voices" but having done nothing to anger the elementals to his knowledge. Is the implication there that he's got the abilities of a Hearer as well?

I undertook an effort to research into the state of the elementals as understood by the people of the Black Shroud last night. This will be a little image-heavy, but I did get confirmation of at least one of my suspicions in regards to the Calamity's role in the elementals and their role in the forest. What is clearly confirmed by multiple conjurers across the Shroud is that the Calamity did in fact weaken the elementals considerably. The greenwrath, while not entirely absent from the world, is far less of a tangible threat and much less likely to be used against intruders... but Gridanian culture persists in upholding traditions based around the idea that outsiders are a threat and an invitation to the forest's wrath, and must be made to submit to the will of the elementals.

It's kind of weird, to be honest... There's nothing telling us the Twelve are benevolent, or even what we think they are. And honestly, the fact that they could be summoned just the same as Primals makes it seem that they're not what people accept at face value at all! I mean, it's sort of a staple of FF at this point that religious authorities and gods aren't necessarily trustworthy, and more often than not end up being antagonists. The Church of Saint Ajora, Yevon, the Occuria, the Fal'Cie, the Warring Triad... at this point, it's honestly more shocking to find a wholly benevolent religious organization or deity than one that is antagonistic or at least dangerously apathetic to the plight of mankind. I know it's easy to say "oh, the Primals are the evil gods in FFXIV", but at the same time, isn't that like assuming the Scions in FFXII are the ultimate evil?

I thought summoning/killing a Primal disrupted the flow of aether, rather than destroying aether forever. The issue would be the massive concentrations of it that then disperse over very specific locations, rather than "massive concentration>oh that aether is gone forever". Also, now I've got another question. If the Primals were created as the servants of the Twelve, why are they so universally regarded as the pinnacle of evil? As far as I know, they never rebelled like the Scions in Ivalice... Or, for that matter, why would the Twelve create servants that disrupt the world and damage its balance of aether/Hydaelyn so much? Actually, are the Twelve even aligned with Hydaelyn?

Wouldn't it follow with the elementals being part of nature and formed from aether, but not typically physically manifested, that their physical manifestation would use up aether in the same way that any other non-corporeal entity manifesting from the aether would?

The point is that the Wildwoods use the natural behavior of elementals as a tool and justification to further their discrimination against Duskwights and outsiders.

The fact of the matter is that the Wildwoods, who more or less run things, used the elementals as a means to actively put the Duskwights at a disadvantage. And the elementals, having absolutely no regard for the well-being of mortals, carried out this role perfectly! Just how they carried out their role of continually antagonizing Ala Mhigans who did nothing to actually hurt them. They've been used as a sort of supernatural guard dog that just so happens to stand between people the Wildwoods (and to a lesser degree Gridanian Midlanders) don't like and actually living a fulfilled life.

The forestborn "returned" Gelmorra to the elementals while the Duskwights were still living there. As in actively living there. So they're now barred from their ancestral homeland by the Gridanians and elementals, who they'd rejected by living there, even though it's pretty clear they're very interested in still living there.

Dragged the subject of elementals over here so the discussion of playing white mages can continue unimpeded!

Starting a new thread for this so the thread on playing White Mages isn't totally derailed. I'm going to start it off with some questions that have been bothering me, since questions seem to be the best way to prompt discussion. What is the difference between an elemental and a Primal? They're both powerful entities manifested from aether, whose will does not always favor the lives and well-being of mortals. Neither of them are part of the Twelve, but they are both regarded as powerful- though the former are respected and deferred to, while the latter are violently opposed. Is the Black Shroud actually a holy region, or is it a case of ascribing divine intent to natural aetheric activity? Just because the game is in the fantasy genre doesn't mean all assertions about something being magical/divine are true. Is the will of the elementals something that modern Eorzeans should carry out? They do not have the best interest of the people in mind, and never have- only their own interest. The Gridanians made peace with them, but this peace is kept at the expense of countless individuals from outside their original pact. Are the elementals as powerful as they used to be? The Greenwrath was a terrible thing in 1.0, for certain, but in 2.0 it appears to not be as active or dangerous. Did the Calamity or the shifts in the world's aether weaken the influence of the elementals, or are they just an element of the story Square has decided to ignore for the purposes of writing the game? I admit it may be kind of obvious that I have a different perspective on the issue of elementals than a lot of the people involved in previous threads. I don't necessarily believe that they're a force for good or an all-powerful force that must needs be appeased rather than avoided or opposed. And I admit I'm also quite sensitive to the plight of the Duskwights, the Ala Mhigans, the Keepers of the Moon, the beast tribes, and all of those cast out or alienated by traditional Gridanian thinking. But I want to have an open discussion about this, because it's a fascinating topic, and I think it'd be a shame if it were kept only to tangents in somewhat-related threads.

"Gridania" making a deal with them specifically means the Padjal, Midlanders, and Wildwood Elezen making a deal with them. In their best interest. And upholding that deal has consistently excluded and screwed over everyone outside of that original union of "Twin Adders". I'm not sure how the elementals and upholding a pact with them are forces for good when we can see how that's impacted the Duskwights, Keepers, and Ala Mhigan refugees, to say nothing of ordinary adventurers from outside the Twelveswood.

It's pretty clear that "nature is inhuman", but the standards of morality as applied to "nature" in the universe of FFXIV are remarkably inconsistent. Because last time I checked, incredibly powerful and capricious entities made of aether weren't the friends of the city-states. But I guess because these ones are ~part of a tradition~ with Gridania and not associated with those mean nasty totally inhuman beast tribes, they should be revered and obeyed! I've done some digging. It seems an awful lot like the reason why elementals could manifest as readily in the Shroud as opposed to anywhere else had to do with the amount of aether concentrated in the region, not specifically because it is a holy land and they are the holy guardians of it. And, what do you know, after the aether of the world got disturbed, they suddenly started being a lot less powerful in said region. Who would have thought? It could very well be that a lot of the religious and magical significance placed upon the Shroud has absolutely nothing to do with it being specifically relevant to the gods, and more to do with aetheric activity giving people who didn't know any better the impression that it was relevant to the gods.

There are frequent references to the Seven Hells, which are consistent with some idea of an afterlife for the wicked. The Void appears to be a separate entity from these. It's also worth noting that the term "Voidsent" is used to describe things that are not actually from the Void- it has been applied to, among other things, parasitic insects that are wholly from Hydaelyn. The usage would be consistent with real-world usage of "damned" or "damnable". The Void has been intentionally left vague, I fear. This is both a blessing and a curse in terms of lore- it leaves room for creativity, but it also leaves lots of room for disagreement and future jossing. We can make some assumptions- various "demonic" enemies such as imps, gargoyles, and mindflayers are from there, and the creatures can be summoned just as egis, carbuncles, and faeries can be summoned. It appears Ascians have some connection to the Void as well- the "true form" of an Ascian may very well be a sort of Voidsent. But we simply do not know much more as of yet.

Kiht clearly needs to go into the Copperbell Mines now. Or O'ghomoro. It's clear what her true foes are, if this is her theme song!

If everyone is content to judge the Primals and beast tribes from a human perspective, I see no problem in judging the elementals from a human perspective. And from a human perspective, they've been an active threat to pretty much all sentient life in that region of Eorzea for centuries. Just because they can be held back by constant appeasement doesn't mean they should be- their behavior seems less like that of a benevolent protector and more on par with a monster demanding its needs be put above those of the individuals it lives near. If the Greenwrath weren't such of a threat, would anybody actually put in the effort to meet the demands and standards of the elementals?

Trying to think of all the spots I've stumbled into RP... The Adventurers' Guilds in Ul'dah and Gridania are the most populous spots, though I've generally found the Quicksand is a little more popular. Haven't seen much RP elsewhere in Ul'dah, but in Gridania I've also stumbled into RP at Apkallu Falls. Limsa Lominsa RP seems to center more around the Bismarck than the Drowning Wench, for whatever reason- most likely due to aetheryte proximity. But I've also RPed and witnessed RP at the Wench- though it seemed a more popular location on Gilgamesh than it is on Balmung. Outside of the cities, it's obviously a bit more sparse. I've had some luck at Camp Bronze Lake and Camp Drybone, for whatever reason. (Well, no, I think I can guess why Bronze Lake is a popular option, but it shouldn't deter non-ERPers!) I've bumped into RP at the village southeast of the Nanawa Mines in Central Thanalan and the Hermit's Hovel in Outer La Noscea as well. Typically, the best spots have an aetheryte but aren't a hub for FATE grinding, daily quests, or major plot content. I'd be hard-pressed to think of any RP at the Hawthorne Hut, Little Ala Mhigo, Revenant's Toll, Camp Dragonhead, Horizon, Quarrymill, or Costa Del Sol. Lower-level maps are more popular for a variety of reasons, so they're a good bet.

I'm struggling to think what would make the Shroud so ~special~ and ~important to protect~ as opposed to literally any other region in Eorzea or Hydaelyn. Also, maybe this is just the impression I'm getting, but are the elementals even remotely a force of good in the world? They're certainly something, but they only appear to have their own best interest at heart, and I'm kind of baffled that people treat them as something that needs to be appeased and obeyed rather than an overt threat like Primals.

Incidentally, I realize that while the OOC information for this free company says that people should feel free to contact us in-game, we don't actually list the individuals that are available for contact. I'm going to amend that! Our leaders, Fenr'ir Nebelung and Skoena Fraewyn, are your best bet. Fenr'ir's usually on a bit more frequently than Skoena, but both of them have the direct authority to scout out new talent and bring them into the fold. If neither of those two are around, your recourse should be seeking out Cendrillon Braids. She's somewhat of a major figure in the company, both IC and OOC, and she can report right back to our fearless leader and our esteemed leader in regards to applicants. And if neither of those three are around, you can always come to me- I'm usually playing on Aumeric Chassebel, and I'll promptly pass on any messages for our leaders out-of-game if need be. Other things of note: with any new applicant, we like to conduct an IC meeting/interview to assess their suitability for the free company, along with OOC talk. Once you get in touch, we can schedule a time and point you to the regular meeting place. The interview won't take long, and will typically involve a handful of members of Lansquenet! It's a nice way to get a taste of the group dynamic and some of the regulars you'll be RPing with in the future. We are still recruiting. Right now, however, we do have a slight imbalance in favor of certain character types. A large portion of our current pool of members are alts, and we would love to take in more mains, or alts that are online fairly frequently. We have weekly meetings, so it's a shame if members of the FC miss them due to engagements on their primary character! We've also got a hair more "backstage" members than actual performers- right now, our pool of actors hovers around four, which does rather limit what performances we can put on, and how frequently we can put on performances. So if anybody is up for playing a bard, dancer, or actor: we'd love to have you around.

The elementals being so tied to the Shroud seems like it's a pretty vital piece of information in understanding them. Nature is everywhere, but they're not, and they're not even apparently necessary for a region being a flourishing wilderness- the jungles south of Wineport are doing just fine, without any elementals needed to protect them. I think it's not necessarily a good idea to assume that they would be everywhere, or that they're all-powerful. Their power is clearly connected to the Shroud, not anywhere else. And in regards to Morys not being allowed to leave, it sounds less like the power of the elementals reaches beyond the Shroud, but more that because he had something tying himself to it, the elementals were able to reach out to him specifically to drag him back to their realm before he could get too far. There's nothing equivalent to them elsewhere in Eorzea or Hydaelyn in terms of power or role. No "Sandwrath" or the ocean rising up to punish anybody who threatens Vylbrand- hell, even the neighboring Mor Dhona didn't have elementals acting in this fashion, and it was a forest region! White Mages, Succor, elementals, Padjal, and the Black Shroud- all of these things are pieces of a puzzle, and specifically pieces that all fit into one particular region of the map. Speculating that there may be elementals elsewhere in the world is fruitless, because if there are, they're even less powerful than the post-Calamity elementals of the Shroud. This is what there not being any equivalent force to the Greenwrath elsewhere suggests- or, alternatively, if we're to believe for a moment that there are elementals elsewhere, that the elementals in the Shroud are just territorial assholes in comparison to the elementals everywhere else, and are the only ones that mark threats for exile and death if they're displeased.

I've thought about it before. Probably would skip the middlemen and have some kind of a deal or circumstance with an Elemental be the direct cause of it- since they're ultimately the arbiters all Succor-related business. Of course, I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of wrangling lore for it, since everyone kicks up so much of a fuss about it.

I think it's worth it to keep in mind that regular sylphs aren't 100% good and positive little people- exactly how many of the daily quests for them involve pulling mean-spirited pranks on the tempered sylphs or annoying the people at the Hawthorne Hut? I dunno. The baseline tempered sylphs are coming from isn't as far from their current state as we might want to believe.

Interesting. Wish it had more primary sources linked... Also, I think it's an understatement to say that the reason Ala Mhigans went unhelped was "possibly" xenophobia. It was definitely xenophobia.