How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly?

[-no longer matters-]

For text based stuff, I can deal with it, it's just story after all, not like we're going to clear content... but if someone tries to do combat with me, and aren't willing to do dice roll system with a character sheet I'm going to walk away regardless of level or achievments.

 

I've never been into the "text based fighting" without some sort of outside moderation (Dice or Outside moderator.) to stop god modding.

[Dis]

-snip-

 

That seems a lot more reasonable than some comments I've seen about the use of level in judgment.  That said, it's going to be hilarious when I finish leveling my alt, and people see her as a level 60 monk.  My goal is to make her the inverse of a powerful low-level character.  She's going to be a high leveled character who's just plain bad.  The 'skilled adventurer' assessment with her would be completely wrong, if someone presumed that about her.  

 

I think that's part of why I wondered about the level bit.  Glioca's only a moderate swordswoman (she can bash other things and not hurt herself), and a much better healer, having had far more experience with it.  The alt I mentioned, Liviana, I plan on spending a week soon and grinding her out to 50, at least, but she's just so terrible at fighting, because she has almost no hand-eye coordination.  

 

She's not likely to pick a fight with anyone, and would sooner run from battle, but there's still that imbalance if people look at her level and don't just interact with her first to realize certain things about her.  Maybe it's the fact that I've played so many years free-form before MMO RP was a thing, that I have such a drastically (apparently) different view than others.  There were no such things as levels for gauging character strength, just how well people wrote.  

 

Thank you for being so candid, and explaining it a bit better though.  I will say I tend to like your method better than most.

[Magellan]

@Girona

 

I agree with a lot of what you say. I would much rather rp out my character's path to strength, then have it happen off camera,  oocly. Therefore, where they are in their personal growth matters to me, not level.

 

I've also enjoyed rping a 'path to weakness' story arc. A character who starts strong, is brought low, and has to rebuild

[Gaspard]

For me personally OOC achievement has no relevance to your character at all, period. Taking it as indicator for anything is simply assuming at best. The 'only', truly valid information you could get from someones level is the degree of time he spends in the game.

 

Also, some food for thought.

 

Let's say you spend all your time leveling, min/maxing your character by running dungeons etc, until you got a decked out lvl 60 character (which, more or less, is OOC content given you're not RPing the Warrior of Light himself). 

 

Someone else spends all that time Roleplaying fighting sessions and training, his characters OOC level is however 15. He invest however the same amount of time, and possibly even more effort.

 

So who's the stronger one? The one who's got his shiny Artifact weapon and all dat armor and shiny lvl 60 tag and armor?

 

Or the guy that chose to RP for 'all' of that equivalent time, roleplaying training sessions, workouts, etc etc.

 

My moneys on the latter guy.

[Hammersmith]

For me personally OOC achievement has no relevance to your character at all, period. Taking it as indicator for anything is simply assuming at best. The 'only', truly valid information you could get from someones level is the degree of time he spends in the game.

 

Also, some food for thought.

 

Let's say you spend all your time leveling, min/maxing your character by running dungeons etc, until you got a decked out lvl 60 character (which, more or less, is OOC content given you're not RPing the Warrior of Light himself). 

 

Someone else spends all that time Roleplaying fighting sessions and training, his characters OOC level is however 15. He invest however the same amount of time, and possibly even more effort.

 

So who's the stronger one? The one who's got his shiny Artifact weapon and all dat armor and shiny lvl 60 tag and armor?

 

Or the guy that chose to RP for 'all' of that equivalent time, roleplaying training sessions, workouts, etc etc.

 

My moneys on the latter guy.

 

 

Counter point: Level 5 char comes up and starts picking a fight.

 

I'm really interested in how much of a gauge people put the level thing as a measure of investment in the game/not trolling/not GokuSS5Weedlord666 since, above all else, that seems to be how people use it.

 

And I can't say it's not (at least) somewhat accurate.

[Gaspard]

Not really a counter point.

 

So what, level 5 character picks a fight? Doesn't matter. If he's playing an apt swordsman, he's playing an apt swordsman. if he's playing a merchant, he's playing a merchant. Level has no relevance on that.

 

A character is defined by both background and how he was written, not by a number above his games head.

[Hammersmith]

Not really a counter point.

 

So what, level 5 character picks a fight? Doesn't matter. If he's playing an apt swordsman, he's playing an apt swordsman. if he's playing a merchant, he's playing a merchant. Level has no relevance on that.

 

A character is defined by both background and how he was written, not by a number above his games head.

 

So your view is every person needs to be taken into equal account regardless of level, lack of level, or action taken with this level/lack of level?

[Gaspard]

To be honest, my view probably isn't the best because I hail from a Roleplaying background where we had very elaborate rules regarding character creation/approval and alot of it was guided by GM's/Admins that oversaw that things remained balanced, no Mary Sue/Gary stu figures arose and that a certain degree of equilibrium and fairness remained. (aswell ofcourse the basic RP rules such as no Godmodding, metagaming, powergaming etc).

 

But to answer your question;

 

My View is that I do not assume a Characters proficiency. I find that out through Roleplay, or by inquiring beforehand.

 

The alternative would be me being a condescending asswipe to anything that's below level 30 because 'lolscrub get level before you get recognized as a trained character'

[Hammersmith]

To be honest, my view probably isn't the best because I hail from a Roleplaying background where we had very elaborate rules regarding character creation/approval and alot of it was guided by GM's/Admins that oversaw that things remained balanced, no Mary Sue/Gary stu figures arose and that a certain degree of equilibrium and fairness remained. (aswell ofcourse the basic RP rules such as no Godmodding, metagaming, powergaming etc).

 

But to answer your question;

 

My View is that I do not assume a Characters proficiency. I find that out through Roleplay, or by inquiring beforehand.

 

The alternative would be me being a condescending asswipe to anything that's below level 30 because 'lolscrub get level before you get recognized as a trained character'

 

Yeah, coming from a char-generation gated background, I can see how that'd be the view and approach.  It's interesting to see how RP background affects the view on this as well!

[That_NPC]

Stuff like this is the main reason I shy away from "walk up" RP, its not right to force your rules on another person, nor for them to force you to recognize theirs.  but since they can so widly vary....

 

Solution, run more RP circles, have admins/storytellers in each circle, help synchronize rules?

[Melkire]

Stuff like this is the main reason I shy away from "walk up" RP, its not right to force your rules on another person, nor for them to force you to recognize theirs.  but since they can so widly vary....

 

Solution, run more RP circles, have admins/storytellers in each circle, help synchronize rules?

 

*blinks*

 

What rules? What "force"?

 

Variance is what we have OoC communication for. Send someone a /tell and ask them what they're up for before diving in, taking the plunge, etc. Unless someone refuses to communicate out-of-character, coordinating with them to either find a middle ground or decide that you're not compatible is fairly easy.

[Hammersmith]

Stuff like this is the main reason I shy away from "walk up" RP, its not right to force your rules on another person, nor for them to force you to recognize theirs.  but since they can so widly vary....

 

Solution, run more RP circles, have admins/storytellers in each circle, help synchronize rules?

 

This leads dark places, imo.  For better or worse, the RP community on an MMO is going to be freeform, an extreme example thereof to boot.  You can and will never be able to get everyone into one bag.

 

Even if you did, you'd then need a volenteer staff to peer review each and every participant.

 

In the end: Logistics is your first enemy here, one that you'll never overcome because at no point will SE enforce any "rule" for RP.  We're lucky to get lore, frankly.

 

Second you end up against the RPers themselves, who's viewpoints are like a bag of cats.  Drop a question and each and every one of them will go their own direction with it, sometimes violently, sometimes fantastically. It's part of the fun, it's part of the horror. Learning to deal with both parts of that is part of being an Adult human being.

 

tldr; It's not feasable, both from a logistics and an actual human involvement stand point.

[That_NPC]

For sure, otherwise someone would have done it already.

 

But that's my extent to RP, especially with this bag of cats mentality, I can adhere to your rules and interpretations of lore.  But I try pretty hard not to do walk ups. 

 

A big part of this though is my background coming from years of DMing table top roleplaying games.  As someone mentioned before, kinda interesting to hear the different viewpoints based on background.

[Sindrianha]

I always love seeing this question/discussion in every forum of RP I run into. It shows the vast difference in thought process, experience and measurement depending on a persons background in both MMO's and other role playing environments.

 

I have learned over the time in the MMO and otherwise environment that it is all about the style you prefer, the ideals you hold and the ones you see as your potential group of Rpers that makes the difference when it comes to this discussion.

 

I personally agree with the idea of earning your character through RP and accomplishment through a well written and outlined character.

 

BUT

 

I also agree that it needs to be EARNED just as much as a level 60 needs to be earned through hours of leveling or so on.

 

The end all be all in my opinion is not a matter of level or ooc achievement but how have you earned the right to be seen as skilled or accomplished? What background did you establish with PC's/NPC's/History that contributed toward your ability to face down another RPer or RP situation? That I think is the heart of it. Earning  your way. And earning your way with multiple parties.

 

I had a discussion recently with my RP partner about something like this and how the right to claim a powerful character, while acceptable through time, needs to employ self awareness. The self awareness of the player to know and understand that while they may have earned their stripes with RP group company A they might seem novice or foreign to RP group company B and an expectation of immediate fear/respect is an irrational viewpoint. (Think of it as you leave one job in good standing for a new job. You have to prove yourself to your new employer before they will respect/trust you like your old job did.)

 

That's just my two cents in the matter! Love to read these types of topics. Always a wonderful discussion to be had! 

[That_NPC]

Also for previous question that I almost missed, the rules and force we're talking about here, everyone has their own idea about what it means for a character level to influence character power.  At the end the best we can do is agree to disagree.

 

But we've all run into people that have the mentality of "this is what my character can do and you just have to deal with it."  Hell I used to be one of them

[Hammersmith]

Weighing in on that "background" thing:

 

I've been through a lot of RP venues, ranging from moderated chats, unmoderated chats, system enforced structures, MMO games as a framework with moderated rules (Small, small venue mind you) and now here on mass population MMO RP.

 

Ultimately the only thing that's worked for me, through all of these is "Do what's fun, for me".  In this setting? it means talking before initiating a fight.  It means rolling with whatever someone says, even if it also means your char rolls their eyes and assumes they're dealing with a drunk or a delusional.

 

It also means I'm watching the levels, somewhat, because I do have that 'are they vested in this or are they a throw-away with no consequence scenario' eye on it.  I think consequence is part of the fun of RP and someone who's not going to invest in the game and a char probably needs to tone down the altaholism a bit, or get their feet a bit more as an RPer to play something that isn't quite so high pie in the sky.  High concepts work, but boy howdy do they take a careful hand, and it's not something I want to see in a n00b walkup because that's deer in the headlights time for me).  Alternatively someone who just rolls a new level 1 TCHING TCHING assassin/rich father/unbeatable older brother out of the hat whenever they want to deal with something isn't something I want to deal with personally.

 

In short, a lot of RP background means I look for investment and here, so far, level is only part of that, kind of like what Gaspard said.  But it IS something of a first blush gauge, and tells me what foot to lead with when exploring with a walkup.

[Flickering Ember]

I continue not to understand these seemingly arbitrary low level examples. Where do they come from? I don't think I have even role-played with a level 1 character or even any character under level 15.

 

No one is level 1 for that long. You can get to level 2 just by walking around! Level 15 is the minimum standard for a RP character you don't feel like leveling up. Not having access to all of the city state areas can be a bit crippling for RP.

 

What I am getting at is, I'm finding that these examples are so exaggerated that I can't empathize or understand them. I have trouble believing THAT many people run into pre-15s with power-gaming fetishes. The only time I run into a pre-level 15 character at all is if they are used for RP storylines in my circles.

 

I would be curious to see some non-'level 1' examples in this thread. Something not on the extreme spectrum? It just doesn't seem very realistic. What about level 20? Level 30? And so on.

 

I don't think anyone has given a straight example on what level a character needs to be to be seen as decently powerful--powerful enough to be a threat. How does one determine such power levels? By the time you're level 20, you've already killed a primal. If something like level 30 is average, what does that make a level 60? Or does a character need to be max level before they are considered a threat?

 

Do people only take this into account when fighting against the other character in RP combat? What about fighting together against an RP-monster together? What about in conversation, such as the character talking about what they do for a living?

[That_NPC]

That's part of the problem, there is no clear answer.  Hearing all of the different viewpoints was the point of the thread (as far as I was aware at least)

 

Seems we're running the whole spectrum here in opinions.  Which is kinda nice.

[FreelanceWizard]

I don't think I have even role-played with a level 1 character or even any character under level 15.

 

(...)

 

I don't think anyone has given a straight example on what level a character needs to be to be seen as decently powerful--powerful enough to be a threat. How does one determine such power levels? By the time you're level 20, you've already killed a primal. If something like level 30 is average, what does that make a level 60? Or does a character need to be max level before they are considered a threat?

 

Do people only take this into account when fighting against the other character in RP combat? What about fighting together against an RP-monster together? What about in conversation, such as the character talking about what they do for a living?

 

Huh. While I don't run into a ton of level 1 "RP only" characters outside of storylines, I have run into some.

 

Anyway, the primary thing I use the "snap level judgment" for is the particularly rare (on XIV) situation of someone out of the blue deciding to start a fight with no OOC discussion at all. I think we can safely set that one aside for the moment, since it's a pretty uncommon circumstance.

 

I take level into account, as one of many factors, for the plausibility of anything a character might do. A level 20 arcanist, for instance, professing that they have the ability to summon three different types of egi and conjure fields of flesh-melting darkness starts pushing the boundaries of my acceptance, since they can't actually do any of those things in game. Now, if they provide supporting statements such as that they've been studying arcanima for years, or that they're a prodigy, or basically have some reasonable story that isn't "the blood of Bahamut runs through my veins and I was personally taught all these powers and more by Papalymo," we're probably square. Like I've said, level isn't a particularly important factor for me. It becomes more important to me as the level of claimed power rises and starts slipping into grey areas of lore, but even then, all the other elements of the character's story trump it. I'm sorry I'm not really giving a "bright line" answer, but for me, there simply isn't such a line. When it comes to implausible things, "I know it when I see it," so to speak.

 

In the context of mechanics to resolve things, relative power level may become a factor, in which case level can provide some tools in that regard -- but even then, I usually don't see that as all that necessary. Superhero balance logic can easily put everyone with the same general character concept ("adventurer") into the same bucket of power, in which case success or failure is up to chance alone.

 

Ultimately, for me, level only says you're a threat or not if there is no other information available. If you RP that you're an untrained civilian waiter at the Bismarck, then I don't care if you're level 60 in every class -- you've established in your RP that you're not a combat character (and to go back on that and whip out some of those level 60 powers, you'd better have a good reason!). Conversely, if you're only level 20 and you RP that you're a highly trained pit fighter, then you've established in your RP that you're combat-capable, and we can go from there on the "superhero balance logic" scale.

 

With all that said, though, I think the growth of characters makes for some good RP, so I personally think that there's a lot of value in playing your power closer to your character's level. Instead of playing the master assassin at level 20, try playing the assassin still learning the trade, and have your powers grow as you level. Perhaps this works better for those of us who RP as we progress (instead of leveling to max level and then RPing, or never leveling and only RPing), but I've found it quite rewarding.

 

So, that's what I mean when I say level "sometimes matters" to me. It matters when there's no other information available to assess another character. It can matter to determine relative power level, if all people agree to that. It can matter as a measure of your own character's growth in ability, if you want to do that. It can matter, in conjunction with other factors, as a way of deciding if some claim seems plausible or not. For me, it doesn't matter as a way of deciding who to RP with, or as an ultimate decider of who gets to play what or who gets to swing the largest stick.

[Naunet]

I continue not to understand these seemingly arbitrary low level examples. Where do they come from? I don't think I have even role-played with a level 1 character or even any character under level 15.

 

I didn't really see any in this game - probably because of how strict the level requirements are to access the more rp-friendly aspects of the game. But in WoW and Rift and TERA, I roleplayed with many level 10 and under characters, some of which had logged months of /played time on those characters alone.

 

Perhaps it's these experiences of mine that make me so willing to be blind to level in RP. Someone presented a hypothetical situation of a level 5 character picking a fight with your own character. Personally, I would just take their IC actions at face value and roll with it. Any negative OOC reaction to the RP I may have is strictly based on things like "are they god-moding?"

 

My level capped characters have had their butts kicked by level 1s.

[Flickering Ember]

To be honest, one of the reasons why I might not even notice the level is because the way Final Fantasy XIV's UI works is a lot different from other MMO's I have played. Other MMOs will place the level number front and center, especially WoW's. If you click on a character in WoW, you will know immediately what level they are. In Final Fantasy XIV it is not as obvious.

[Sylentmana]

Personally, I prefer my in-game achievements to be a direct reflection of how powerful my character is.  A character's level, weapons, armor, and other gear are all reflections of a character's power and accomplishments in the game's world.

 

When I see other people RPing a character who is supposedly "powerful" but their weapons, gear, and level do not reflect this, I have a hard time taking them seriously (I would like to point out that this does not apply to things like political power or other such intangible things).  If they are not going to use the game's mechanics and are just going to throw text around, then it just seems like playing a game of "let's pretend." I have to wonder why they aren't just playing a tabletop RPG instead of a video game.

 

I realize this is kind of a controversial opinion to have within the RP community and as a result, I often have trouble finding people to RP with, but when I do I find the RP is more enjoyable for me, at least.

[Gegenji]

If they are not going to use the game's mechanics and are just going to throw text around, then it just seems like playing a game of "let's pretend." I have to wonder why they aren't just playing a tabletop RPG instead of a video game.

 

 

Sorry, but I definitely need some clarification here on the part that I bolded. We're roleplaying. Isn't that, at its base, a game of "let's pretend"? We're pretending to be wizards and merchants and warriors and chocobo farmers and whatnot.

 

To go even further - our "character" in the game is the WoL, according to the mechanics presented. So aren't we playing pretend to not be that and to be something else other than what the game says we are for RP purposes? We're not actually Ul'dahn nobles or Ishgardian soldiers or Yellowjackets or a splinter-tribesman from a Sangoli Seeker tribe. We're someone from outside Eorzea who came in from elsewhere and became everyone's go-to Primal-butt-kicker and ultimate errand boy/girl. Everything beyond that is "playing pretend" - though, to be fair, to try to RP as the WoL would be playing pretend too, wouldn't it?

 

I'm sorry, I hope I don't seem dismissive or anything. I'm just curious about your stance here.

[Sylentmana]

If they are not going to use the game's mechanics and are just going to throw text around, then it just seems like playing a game of "let's pretend." I have to wonder why they aren't just playing a tabletop RPG instead of a video game.

 

 

Sorry, but I definitely need some clarification here on the part that I bolded. We're roleplaying. Isn't that, at its base, a game of "let's pretend"? We're pretending to be wizards and merchants and warriors and chocobo farmers and whatnot.

 

To go even further - our "character" in the game is the WoL, according to the mechanics presented. So aren't we playing pretend to not be that and to be something else other than what the game says we are for RP purposes? We're not actually Ul'dahn nobles or Ishgardian soldiers or Yellowjackets or a splinter-tribesman from a Sangoli Seeker tribe. We're someone from outside Eorzea who came in from elsewhere and became everyone's go-to Primal-butt-kicker and ultimate errand boy/girl. Everything beyond that is "playing pretend" - though, to be fair, to try to RP as the WoL would be playing pretend too, wouldn't it?

 

I'm sorry, I hope I don't seem dismissive or anything. I'm just curious about your stance here.

Its no problem. I had a feeling after I posted it, that this phrase would cause some confusion. I should have better clarified what I meant.  First of all, you're right.  We the players are ultimately engaged in a game of pretend, whether RPing or not. The phrase "let's pretend" was used for lack of a better phrase, but I really meant it within the context of being IC.  When performing a wholly text-based RP, it seems to me as if the characters themselves are playing a game of "let's pretend." Like they came up to each other and one said, "Pretend I'm swinging my sword at you" or something similar.  

 

It just makes me think of the characters themselves as if they are engaged in a child's game of pretend, chasing each other around, swinging invisible swords, and making swooshing and clanging noises.  It all just seems a bit silly to me.

 

I hope this helps clarify what I meant. Also, your reaction pics made me laugh.:lol:

[Dis]

-snip-

 

-snip-

Its no problem. I had a feeling after I posted it, that this phrase would cause some confusion. I should have better clarified what I meant.  First of all, you're right.  We the players are ultimately engaged in a game of pretend, whether RPing or not. The phrase "let's pretend" was used for lack of a better phrase, but I really meant it within the context of being IC.  When performing a wholly text-based RP, it seems to me as if the characters themselves are playing a game of "let's pretend." Like they came up to each other and one said, "Pretend I'm swinging my sword at you" or something similar.  

 

It just makes me think of the characters themselves as if they are engaged in a child's game of pretend, chasing each other around, swinging invisible swords, and making swooshing and clanging noises.  It all just seems a bit silly to me.

 

I hope this helps clarify what I meant. Also, your reaction pics made me laugh.:lol:

 

The thing is, that MMO RP isn't all that much different from text-based RP.  It's similar to my tabletop games as well, because I often let levels slide around when a player comes to me with a really good character concept (someone in one of my DM'd games is playing a princess who happens to be level three right now).  You pretend to be something you aren't, and represent it in type because the MSQ/assigned story doesn't fit anything outside a particular niche (Warrior of Light from a far-away land not anywhere in the current city-states, like Gegenji pointed out).

 

There are currently a lot of character concepts seen in RP that aren't really represented in the game.  Doman's, for example, would have to just be Ninja's, and would be pidgeonholed into that class because as far as we know, only Ninja/Shinobi come from Doma.  I haven't seen much representation of other classes from Doma.  But I've seen other Doman RPer's who are other classes, and use those classes as a representation of that other class (Gladiator for a swordsman, or Dark Knight come to mind).  

 

You'd also have to dismiss a character who is void-touched or voidsent, because those aren't things we can technically represent through our characters and levels.  There are a lot of character concepts that you'd end up having to handwave away using this mindset, because either the players behind the screen just don't have time to level, or, like it was said way earlier in the thread, their main PvE character is on another server, and they primarily come to Balmung for the RP, not the PvE.  Viewing OOC character strength (and note that they call this OOC achivement in the thread title for a reason) as an indicator of IC power level has always seemed rather.. 

 

Well.. let's just call a spade a spade.  Using OOC achivement to determine IC power level is technically what you'd call metagaming, because metagaming is using out of character knowledge (I know your character is level 10 because I targeted you and saw it OOCly) in an in-character context (My character won't take you serious despite the fact you say you're an active gladiator who has been in the arena for a few seasons, and are wearing gladiator gear and a sword, because I saw that you're level 10).