Art Discussion

[Folken]

 

[Mtoto Wamoto]

Thank you for pointing that out. Zolku isn't done (I have a lot of work to do on him) which is why I haven't posted him up in larger format. Second, I do actually sit there and draw out my characters line by line and do I use reference material from other works to assist me in posture. If you don't like my work, that's fine, but I'm not just transforming images and rotating/flippin them.

[Mtoto Wamoto]

I felt a bit attacked with that last post so here's my current WIP.

 

http://i.imgur.com/IO8XI.jpg[/img]

[Folken]

but I'm not just transforming images and rotating/flippin them.

 

Except that's almost exactly what you're doing. It's one thing to reference a pose or expression. It's another to copy almost line for line another artist's piece. The outfit is the same almost to the letter, except of course to original picture is far more detailed and well done.

 

 

This isn't a matter of me liking your art or not, because to be honest, it's not your art we're seeing. It's someone elses.

 

If you want to become a better artist, this is not the way.

[Mtoto Wamoto]

Again, I'm not done with Zolku. I just wanted something to scratch my brain against and figure out what I want to do. If in your opinion I'm not an artist or I'm not bettering myself because of how I draw, then that's fine. I'm not going to argue the fact that I'm using someone's elses work to help inspire me and work to be better and I still have a long way to go and I still have a lot to finish on all the things I've posted.

 

That said, I do put a lot of time and and effort in what I work on and want to state the fact that this is just fan art for my friends and not commission based whatsoever.

 

I apologize if I insulted anyone or made anyone feel like I'm cheating in any manner.

[Xenedra]

You don't need to apologize for borrowing a pose and an outfit from an outside source for FANART. It's obvious that he did not trace the work, simply copied it and he made no move to hide it either, going so far as to reference the pose for his next piece as well. There are, frankly, HUNDREDS of better ways to suggest to someone that maybe they ought to give a different outfit or pose a try or even to ask if maybe they referenced something in the first place, but you've gone beyond the realm of friendly discussion into malicious belittling.

 

If someone wants to become a better artist then yes, they OUGHT to copy from other places. Not trace, but copy. This is what we do when we draw from real life, is it not? It's the same when we copy a piece of 2d art as well. If you copy a GOOD work it will help you understand a lot about translating an outfit into 2d, in even the smallest things, like noticing how a pair of pants puckers under the hem of a shirt.

 

If someone wants to HELP someone become a better artist, putting them down is NOT the way to encourage them.

[Abaigeal]

but I'm not just transforming images and rotating/flippin them.

 

Except that's almost exactly what you're doing. It's one thing to reference a pose or expression. It's another to copy almost line for line another artist's piece. The outfit is the same almost to the letter, except of course to original picture is far more detailed and well done.

 

This isn't a matter of me liking your art or not, because to be honest, it's not your art we're seeing. It's someone elses.

 

If you want to become a better artist, this is not the way.

 

...

 

...

 

Actually I honestly have to disagree with most of your comments that you have made so far. As a fellow artist that is constantly learning every day, The basics of learning and expanding is copying things that you see. Whether its real life or cartoonistic.

 

Regardless, of whether the pose is too much the same or the out fit in the same, it is actually rather clear the artist here has drawn it and made it his own, there for it makes it his own work.

 

I often use stock models for posing and reference. Does that earn me a face too?

 

Mtoto, From what I can see you can tell its your work and you worked hard on it. Some people learn in different matters. It's one thing for someone to give you constructive criticism it's another to tell you how to learn and whether that process is best for you or not. Keep doing what your doing, I know I want to keep see it...just because i would like to see where go and what you do with your talent. Because it is clear you have some!

 

Athough...Here is my actual post and comment that i wanted to make~!

 

I do have one thing i want to criticize...If that's supposed to be Zolku Elku You totally didn't make him cocksure and "idiotic" looking enough~!

[Zesiro Ghalib]

I do have one thing i want to criticize...If that's supposed to be Zolku Elku You totally didn't make him cocksure and "idiotic" looking enough~!

 

Love you too baby.

[Kylin]

Let's play nice folks. Just like in RP, everyone has different styles in art and derive inspiration and foundations from different sources.

 

If the OP desires, I can split the latter portion of this thread off into a separate thread to discuss these differing styles (in a polite and civilized matter). Otherwise, I can leave the posts as they are and we can simply end this portion of the discussion altogether. Your call.

[Folken]

Copying someone else's work does little to improve your own talent. Because you are working off of other's work, you aren't actually using your own creativity to bring about a new piece. Copy the pose, fine, but the entire outfit too? That's too far. It takes the littlest amount of effort to change the pose and make it your own. Simply drawing over someone else's stuff isn't the way to go.

It takes all of two seconds to imagine a new position, even based off another one. Doing this actually challenges your artistic abilities, and makes you think more than copying ever would. Then you have to actually think "Well hmm, with his arm like this, how would that make the material fold differently?" etc. etc.

 

 

All of you defending it aren't realizing that this isn't a matter of referencing. Referencing is something every artist does, looking at something and using it to better their own original piece. And you can say "Borrow" all you want, but there's a fine line between "borrowing" and "stealing". And to a lot of people, they are one in the same, especially when it comes to art.

[Xenedra]

You're welcome to feel however you like about how people can improve themselves, in fact, it's likely (lawl) different from person to person. My biggest issue here is that you were faaairly rude about it. IMO we ought to take this discussion off Mtoto's art thread starting with that transformed picture so that the thread becomes just his art again. I don't really have much more to say on the topic, myself, though. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.

[Eva]

I think if this criticism was a bit more constructive, it may have been better received. For myself, I've enjoyed viewing Mtoto's works these past few days for whatever that may be worth, and look forward to seeing more.

[Folken]

his art

 

Except I've just proven that his art is copied from other people's work.

 

 

But whatever. Go ahead and remove my posts then mods. Guess it was a mistake coming back here, didn't know this place was a sanctuary for plagiarism.

[Xenedra]

So friendly still

 

Not all of the art in his thread is "plagiarized" and summing up all of his work as such because of this recent image is wholey unfair. I'm not suggesting we delete your comments, just move them, as Kylin suggested.

 

Edit: like so.

[Eva]

I've gone ahead and split the topic as has been requested. It can just as easily be fused back together, if Mtoto for some reason wishes.

[Kylin]

This discussion went downhill rather quickly >.>.

 

No need to up and leave the community over something as minor as this disagreement. I know you've been here technically since before launch, Shawnzy. This seems like a rather impulsive move based purely on anger over differing views. Throwing away a lot of potentially good future interactions (IC and OOC alike) over something so small doesn't seem like the right move to me and I hope you reconsider. But if you don't change your mind, sorry to see you go.

 

Also, the sig is really unnecessary...

[Folken]

It's fine. I point out someone stealing and imitating someone else's artwork and that makes me the bad guy. That's fine, that's the kind of community this seems to be. It's good to know where this place stands on the issue.

 

I'll just be sure not to bring any of my own artwork around these parts, lest it be stolen, modified, or imitated.

 

And I feel my sig is quite justified, other people should be made aware of this forum's stance towards plagiarism.

[Aysun]

Oh my. O_o

 

I just.. don't even know where to start. I don't support plagiarism and am offended that I'm grouped in with such things just because I am a member of this site. As an innocent bystander, I'd appreciate not being labeled as someone who supports such things. :cry:

[Nel Celestine]

I guess then Shawnzy, by the look of this topic I should stop all my attempts to draw because I use other people's art as guide lines and tutorials. :cry: So much for self improvement.

[Folken]

I guess then Shawnzy' date=' by the look of this topic I should stop all my attempts to draw because I use other people's art as guide lines and tutorials. :cry: So much for self improvement. [/quote']

 

Do what you want. People aren't grasping the conceptual difference between referencing and literally copying another person's work.

[Aysun]

Seeing the side-by-sides make me a bit curious myself, because while I use references too, this does seem a bit.. odd. The entire outfit, even the folds in the fabric, are mirrored.

 

I think tracing/copying things is a great way to learn and figure out things, but I wouldn't post those anywhere and claim they're my art or anything..

[Eva]

Mtoto said on two separate posts (earlier in this thread so I shall not link) that it wasn't done. Are artists not allowed to use reference pieces for their work?

 

Moreover you came here and attacked an artist's in-progress work and the methods used. Maybe you should reserve judgment until the piece is finished before drawing upon yourself such ire from the rest of the community.

 

Also taking a few opinions that differ from your own and lumping them together as the entirety of the forum is a rather hasty generalization and makes for a poor argument.

[Folken]

Mtoto said on two separate posts (earlier in this thread so I shall not link) that it wasn't done. Are artists not allowed to use reference pieces for their work?

 

Moreover you came here and attacked an artist's in-progress work and the methods used. Maybe you should reserve judgment until the piece is finished before drawing upon yourself such ire from the rest of the community.

 

Also taking a few opinions that differ from your own and lumping them together as the entirety of the forum is a rather hasty generalization and makes for a poor argument.

 

I used the "in-progress" piece as the example because it was the first I came upon the original source of the art. Given time, I'm sure I could track down all the other sources to other finished pieces, and then we'd see just how much has changed, but I doubt much would be different save for faces.

 

Once again, people seem to not be able to separate the difference between referencing and copying.

[Yssen]

Gonna pick up a metric and make sure it is all 44% different? Have fun with that. Way farther than I'd go to win/not back down from and argument. Perhaps the energy you are putting into the process of argument could be more productively channeled.

[Aysun]

Really Shawnzy, I think the reason everyone's all siding with Mtoto on this is how you brought this up and how you attacked the community over the actions of one person. It could have been handled better, is all. It doesn't mean anyone here supports what Mtoto did.