RP Combat or: How I Learned to Stop Making Convoluted Combat Systems That Nobody Cares About

[Valen]

I've been RPing in FFXIV for almost 5 years. I've attended and hosted more RP events than I can remember, and many of them (too many of them) were combat based. Some of them were freeform. Some of them used /random. Some of them used /random with associated character sheets. Some of them used the last 2 digits of /random. Some of them were on Discord. One of them even used a 3rd party 0-999 random number generator because the person hosting the event was convinced that /random was rigged. Yet among these dozens and dozens of combat RPs I've been involved with, all but 5 of them that immediately come to mind sucked to varying degrees of suckage. Why did they suck? Well, to answer that question we need to first address the very large elephant in the room.

 

MMO Combat RP sucks.

 

Sure. We can all cherry pick a handful of times where combat RP was fun and enjoyable, but all of you who've participated in your fair share of combat RP know exactly what I'm talking about. Having to wait 15-20 minutes for your turn to say "I hit the dude", spin the wheel on /random, and roll a 32. Having to navigate through chat with a microfilm reader to find the part you missed about your character getting thrown off a cliff because it got buried beneath a sea of text. Of course let's also not forget the iconic Alt+Tabbing to Youtube for 90% of the event because you literally have nothing for your character to do. Yet despite these very glaring, difficult to fix flaws, we still dive into combat RP again, and again, and again, because at the end of the day we want for our characters to be the cool guys who swing big swords and hit people in the face with fireballs.

 

So at this point you're probably wondering "Valen, is this a rant post or do you have a point you're trying to get to?" The answers to both of these questions is yes.

 

Combat RP sucks, but we, like most victims of abuse, just keep going back to it. So if we're going to keep going back to it, the very least we can do is put forth an effort to make it suck less, and maybe, just maybe, actually have fun with it. Bear in mind, these little nuggets of advice are intended to be directed toward story based Combat RP, where the combat is supposed to contribute to an RP plot as a whole, and isn't really meant to be applicable to things like the Grindstone or similar events where half the fun is seeing what craziness can occur from the Chaos God whom we know as /random.

 

1. Freeform is Best Form

 

Possibly one of the most underutilized forms of RP combat is Freeform combat. There are no rolls to determine what does and doesn't hit. There isn't a need to keep track of HP or anything of the sort. It's just all spectacle. You emote what your character/NPC does in the combat, and the next player emotes what their character/NPC does, and so on and so forth until combat is over. Typically these make for brutal slugfests that end with everyone pulling out all the stops by the climax of it. Of the 5 RP Combats I mentioned that didn't suck in the slightest, 3 of them were Freeform. Freeform lends itself very well to MMO RP, as it becomes less of a number's game and more of a game of narrative, where you and your fellow RPers weave together a scene that everyone is partaking in.

 

Unfortunately there is one glaring flaw with this system. At the end of combat, there is typically a winner and a loser, and because of Freeform's nature, it requires that everyone be on the same page of the outcome before the combat even starts. This can be a big turn off for a lot of RPers, as many like the uncertainty of battle, or just simply don't like to lose. However, often times it's not the outcome that matters in RP, but rather the steps taken to reach it.

 

At the end of the day though, Freeform RP does require everyone participating to play ball for it to go smoothly. Like a professional wrestling match, the participants need to know when to take hits and when to give hits. A one-sided fight is not very interesting, so swallow your pride, take some blows, and give your opponent the upper hand every now and again. This also requires a degree of trust in your fellow RPers that they'll know when to do the same for you. If this degree of trust cannot be achieved, then Freeform combat is likely not the best style for that group. With that said, a lot of problems can be solved simply with communication, even through /tells during the combat itself.

 

2. Nobody Likes Character Sheets

 

I see this one a lot, especially among decently sized RP FCs. The idea of character sheets are most certainly not without their novelty. It can be neat to apply your character's skills and abilities into a tangible number that can actually affect the outcome of an RP. However, this is only in theory. In practice what ends up happening is that everyone maxes out their relevant attack skills and it might as well be like you're rolling /random without any modifiers. Except it also comes with the additional cost that any unfortunate player who has the audacity to stray from the beaten path and split their attack skills between magic and physical because they're a Red Mage pretty much becomes a gimped character.

 

Not only that, but nobody really likes managing character sheets and XP. It's already hard enough to keep yourself immersed in a Combat RP when you have to wait through turn order, but it's even harder when you have to keep Alt+Tabbing to your character sheet to evaluate your attack modifiers, abilities, etc.. While these sort of things might be cool within a tabletop RPG environment, it really doesn't mesh well with MMO RP, and if anything will slow combat down even more.

 

"But Valen", I hear you say. "If there's no character sheet to establish a character's capabilities, then whats to say that they won't act outside of their limitations as a character?" This is a good question, and it unfortunately doesn't have a simple answer. While we've all heard our fair share of horror stories of godmodding and power gaming, in all the combat RPs I've hosted and partaken in, more often than not players know their characters' limitations and will typically act within them. That said, it is still a real possibility that a player may attempt something they're incapable off, in which instance, its best handled in a case-by-case basis. For some people you can simply say "I'm pretty sure you can't summon Ifrit to rain Hellfire down on your enemies, but I'm sure your mage could conjure a firestorm.", while others may require more finesse when dealing with. Ultimately, the best way to handle these situations is to know the tendencies of the RPers prior to combat and establish expectations for the RP before actually starting the combat.

 

"But Valen!" I hear you still saying. "If not for character sheets, then my seasoned knight will have the same chance of success as a lowly peasant in combat!" And that's a fair point, but I do believe there are solutions to this that don't involve adding arbitrary numbers on top of arbitrary numbers. For example, the system I use when having to roll /random in Combat RP is that I have the player describe the way their character attacks. If their character's attack is done in a clever way such as "I charge the dragon, using my giant sword to shield me from the fire as I make my approach, and then slash at the dragon's neck!", then I grant them 2 rolls on /random. Not only does this increase their chances of landing a hit, but it could also potentially net them 2 points of damage instead of 1. This rewards players for actually RPing their character like a seasoned knight instead of just saying that they're a seasoned knight and should receive bonuses because of that. However, bear in mind this is just a single example of an alternative to using character sheets, and I'm sure there are many other better and more intuitive ways than the one I described.

 

3. Take Out The Trash

 

Seriously, nobody likes fighting a group of faceless red-shirts. These fights typically add nothing to the plot as a whole other than to be an RP pit-stop for me to browse Reddit while I wait my turn. These fights always go on forever, and they are almost never fun. If you insist on having your group fight through a horde of cultists/soldiers/bandits/rabid chinchillas, then either group them into a single entity, or just allow your group to emote how they cut them down as they move on to the next part of your event, as that can at least be a little bit fun giving them a brief Dynasty Warriors power trip, but the novelty wears off really fast.

 

Speaking of hordes of people....

 

4. More Than 4 and Fun's Out The Door

 

In your mind it may be cool to have your entire FC or friend group present at a single mass combat, but I promise you, it's not. When it comes to Combat RP, the more people you have means the more time between turns, and the time it takes to go through a cycle of a full party in a Combat RP is roughly twice the length of time it takes for Jupiter to make a full revolution around the sun. If you find yourself in a group of 6 or more people, I'd highly recommend trying to split it into relatively even groups with a secondary GM to help run a separate combat for the 2nd group. If that's not an option, then I implore you to encourage your players to have their posts ready by their turn to help speed things up, because otherwise you'll be there for 5 hours and everyone will hate you by the end of it. The best way to prevent this from happening though, is to simply try to keep your combat groups small. 4-5 is typically workable, but more than that and you'll start seeing a lot of issues really fast when people start to Alt+Tab out of game and miss integral posts because they got tired of sitting around for a 30 minute turn cycle.

 

That said, I do understand that sometimes there are big events that everyone wants to be a part of, but in those cases I'd highly recommend taking preemptive measures to ensure that turn order can go relatively expeditiously. How you decide to go about doing this may vary from case to case, but they should nonetheless be taken into consideration before hosting a combat RP with a large number of people.

 

5. What Are You Fighting For?

 

As mentioned in Take Out The Trash, you should be asking yourself what a combat adds to the plot as a whole? If that's a question you can't answer, then it might be worth excluding it. This isn't like a hack-n-slash video game where the fun is in the fights. The fun in Combat RP is the story behind the fights and how these fights affect the story itself. For example, a battle with a Cultist who is a subordinate to the BBEG and is a major key to the BBEG's plan could be warranted as important. However a battle with the Cultist's pet Molboro probably isn't, and if you are insistent on having your group fight a Molboro, then just pair it up with the Cultist and call it a day to save your group from getting burnt out before even reaching the actual point of the event.

 

6. Just End It Already!

 

Much like this post, Combat RP can often go on way longer than it needs to. While your millage may vary, I've found the sweet spot for Combat RP length to be around 1.5 hours. Depending on the flow of the combat, I might drag it out for 2 if the group is really getting into it, but the combat should most certainly not go on any longer than that. However, the key factor in determining if a combat has overstayed its welcome can be achieved by simply reading the room. If your group just doesn't appear as interested or enthused as they were at the start of combat, it's probably about time to wrap it up. Sometimes this might require making an audible and changing a few things, but at the end of the day your group will thank you for it.

 

I know it can really suck for a combat to end in an undesirable way due to a premature ending, but RP is about having fun, and if your group is not having fun anymore, then wrap it up. If there were any other details or events that were supposed to occur during combat that you weren't able to get to, just sleep on it and figure out a way to bring this information to light in a separate, preferably non-combat oriented RP.

 

A Final Word

 

Often times some of the most integral moments in a plot occur during or as a result of combat, but Combat RP in and of itself has a lot of innate problems that make it clunky and awkward to work with, and no combat system is ever going to fully fix that. But hopefully this advice will help curb some of those issues to at least a small extent so that you can get more fun out of it in the future.

 

If you have any further suggestions, or even counterpoints, I'd be more than happy to hear them. I'm by no means perfect, and one can always be further enlightened through the perspective of another. I just hope that this advice can at least prove somewhat beneficial for my fellow RPers out there.

[Aedan Marceaux]

An interesting read with some fairly solid points and examples... I'm just curious as to why you think freeform rp is any faster than "vanilla" rolls (vanilla meaning just pure /random or last 2 digits or whatever, just no modifiers).

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding you or have experienced freeform in a completely different way than you somehow, there's just as much wait time between turns with or without rolls. Having people type /random and seeing which number is higher should take no more extra time than maybe ten seconds tops.

 

Beyond that, though, solid points with which I mostly agree. Coming from a FC leader that has worked with his company to come up with some sort of event system that stays away from character sheets, allows for the "fun chaos of the rng god", but also keeps control (to some degree) in the player's hands as much as possible. Its not perfect, but as you said, I doubt any system ever will be... including the "best" freeform.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Kaelen Tanner
phone finger typos

[Valen]

40 minutes ago, Kaelen Tanner said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding you or have experienced freeform in a completely different way than you somehow, there's just as much wait time between turns with or without rolls. Having people type /random and seeing which number is higher should take no more extra time than maybe ten seconds tops.

I can't speak on how you typically do Combat RP, let it be Freeform or with /random, but I can speak from my experiences as to why Freeform has been faster for me. In most Combat RP events I've participated in when using /random, the post order goes roughly as so.

 

• Player A attacks NPC
• NPC reacts
• Player B attacks NPC
• NPC reacts and then attacks players because it is now their turn.
• Attacked players react.
• Player A attacks NPC
• Etc.

 

In Freeform it typically goes this way.

 

• Player A attacks NPC and gives brief descriptor of whether or not they succeed.
• Player B attacks NPC and gives brief descriptor of whether or not they succeed.
• NPC reacts to its current status following both attacks, attacks players, and gives brief descriptor of whether or not they succeed.
• Player A reacts and attacks NPC and gives brief descriptor of whether or not they succeed.
• Etc.

As you can see,  the post order in Freeform is less cumbersome than with /random. However, I will not hesitate to admit that a similar post order could be implemented with /random to help tighten things up, but there are still some other factors that allow Freeform to speed up combat compared to its /random counterpart. For instance, in Freeform, attacks always hit when they need to hit, and fail when they need to fail. This allows groups to close up fights quickly or progress a fight to its next stage with ease. Every post brings forth something meaningful and allows for battles to progress at a steady pace.

 

In /random you are at the mercy of the rolls, and there will almost certainly be whiffs and misses throughout the fight, meaning that the related posts to those failed attacks are null, as they don't really bring anything to the battle itself other than just prolonging the encounter. If there's one or two misses, it's no big deal, but if your group hits a string of misses, then the posting time really starts to add up.

 

That said, things can get clogged up in Freeform, especially if there is confusion toward the battle's pacing. If some players are wanting to draw things out while others are wanting to speed things along, it can create issues. However, as mentioned above, that's why communication is important for Freeform.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Valen

[UnidessGaming]

13 hours ago, Valen said:

In most Combat RP events I've participated in when using /random, the post order goes roughly as so.

 

• Player A attacks NPC
• NPC reacts
• Player B attacks NPC
• NPC reacts and then attacks players because it is now their turn.
• Attacked players react.
• Player A attacks NPC
• Etc.

 

In Freeform it typically goes this way.

 

• Player A attacks NPC and gives brief descriptor of whether or not they succeed.
• Player B attacks NPC and gives brief descriptor of whether or not they succeed.
• NPC reacts to its current status following both attacks, attacks players, and gives brief descriptor of whether or not they succeed.
• Player A reacts and attacks NPC and gives brief descriptor of whether or not they succeed.
• Etc.

 

As an example of how much experiences can vary using even the same system: in my own 15 years of MMO RP now, 90% of the time Freeform combat was approached exactly the same way of your /random example. Meaning posting times were exactly the same both with or without rolls. I'll also add that your Freeform post order can be used even with rolls, wich brings me to my next point.

The most expeditious and smooth way I have experienced of dealing with Combat RP was to use the succession of your second example BUT with the GM taking care of whether or not attacks hit or miss, both with Freeform and rolls+character sheets systems. So as far as my most enjoyable experiences, things have usually gone this way:

• Initiative roll by all players, both in Freeform and dice involved systems to help both GM and players to have a clear idea of the combat pace and avoid chat clogging.
• Each player emotes their attack as an attempt in turn following the initiative rolls results. (in case dice is involved, /roll after the emote is posted.)
• GM emotes NPC/s response/s to players attacks attempts and their eventual effects (in case of dice, following the rolls results) in a single post (or two if chat characters limit is reached). NPCs attack turn.
• Each player emotes their defensive in turn, followed organically by their next action in the same post. (usual /roll after post if dice involved).
• GM emotes NPC/s response/s as above.
• Rinse and repeat until the fight is over

 

Which, as I said, is basically the same of your second example, but with a key difference: the GM is in charge of the hit/miss success ratio and can easily shape the combat pace according to how much smart the party is fighting.This way Combat can be dragged on (or kept short) at the GM discretion in most cases, even if the party hits a bad rolls streak for a bit.

I will agree that smaller numbers are best in most occasions, but even up to 7-8 people it has been enjoyable in my experience. What usually makes a big difference is also how much well the people involved can write organically, and in my experience that is also something that gets better the longer people have RPed together and have known each other's usual pace and style.

I have been part of some massive battles during the years (one time 60 people where inolved at the same time, both playing their characters and NPCs) and even then it can work right if well organized. As you said in your first post, the key there was knowing beforehand how many people would be present and having enough co-GMs taking care of smaller groups, keeping the overall combat flow organical alongside the main GM.

 

Another simple trick (although I find it part of the basics) when dealing with situations in which more than 3-4 people are involved, is that regardless of your usual writing style emotes and attacks descriptions should be kept as simple and to the point as possible. That way it takes less time to type, and it's easier to read the important details for the GM and other players, keeping the flow of RP smoother. Overly descriptive emotes can be left for less hectic situations.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by UnidessGaming

[Aedan Marceaux]

4 hours ago, UnidessGaming said:

 

As an example of how much experiences can vary using even the same system: in my own 15 years of MMO RP now, 90% of the time Freeform combat was approached exactly the same way of your /random example. Meaning posting times were exactly the same both with or without rolls. I'll also add that your Freeform post order can be used even with rolls, wich brings me to my next point.

The most expeditious and smooth way I have experienced of dealing with Combat RP was to use the succession of your second example BUT with the GM taking care of whether or not attacks hit or miss, both with Freeform and rolls+character sheets systems. So as far as my most enjoyable experiences, things have usually gone this way:

• Initiative roll by all players, both in Freeform and dice involved systems to help both GM and players to have a clear idea of the combat pace and avoid chat clogging.
• Each player emotes their attack as an attempt in turn following the initiative rolls results. (in case dice is involved, /roll after the emote is posted.)
• GM emotes NPC/s response/s to players attacks attempts and their eventual effects (in case of dice, following the rolls results) in a single post (or two if chat characters limit is reached). NPCs attack turn.
• Each player emotes their defensive in turn, followed organically by their next action in the same post. (usual /roll after post if dice involved).
• GM emotes NPC/s response/s as above.
• Rinse and repeat until the fight is over

 

Which, as I said, is basically the same of your second example, but with a key difference: the GM is in charge of the hit/miss success ratio and can easily shape the combat pace according to how much smart the party is fighting.This way Combat can be dragged on (or kept short) at the GM discretion in most cases, even if the party hits a bad rolls streak for a bit.

 

 

This is where I was coming from, as well. And I thought that this was, more or less, the "universal standard" of how the back and forth between turns goes. The only usual variance (that rarely ever happened or was suggested) in it that I've seen is all players take a turn, then all enemies (if fighting NPCs), then players, then enemies, etc.

 

Otherwise it's as you said, on a player's turn they roll to see if they successfully defended assuming they were targeted with an attack(whatever that may mean in terms of dodging, blocking, etc.) then emote said defense and follow it up with a potential attempted offense, finishing it off with a roll. Then it goes to the next turn and much the same is done again. The only time that rolls should add to that outside of freeform is, like I said, the ten seconds tops it should take for someone to type random and the quick "math" of which number is bigger.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Kaelen Tanner

[UnidessGaming]

On 9/13/2019 at 5:53 PM, Kaelen Tanner said:

 

This is where I was coming from, as well. And I thought that this was, more or less, the "universal standard" of how the back and forth between turns goes. The only usual variance (that rarely ever happened or was suggested) in it that I've seen is all players take a turn, then all enemies (if fighting NPCs), then players, then enemies, etc.

 

Otherwise it's as you said, on a player's turn they roll to see if they successfully defended assuming they were targeted with an attack(whatever that may mean in terms of dodging, blocking, etc.) then emote said defense and follow it up with a potential attempted offense, finishing it off with a roll. Then it goes to the next turn and much the same is done again. The only time that rolls should add to that outside of freeform is, like I said, the ten seconds tops it should take for someone to type random and the quick "math" of which number is bigger.

 

Pretty much, yeah. In my opinion, having all players emote in sequence following the Initiative roll results and the GM respond to all with a single post on how the NPCs react to the attack also adds to the hectic feeling of a group fight. Contrary to how it is portrayed usually on screen, one does not wait in line for the bad guys to dispatch their comrade: they attack at the same time once the fight starts.

Also something to add, is that the same sequence can be used in a players vs. players situation. Unless it's a 1v1 fight, it works the same to express the chaos of a group fight. The only difference I've seen applied is another Initiative roll (a sum of the rolls for each group to keep it fair) at the start of combat to establish which group gets on the offensive first.