Linkshell Leader Meeting Transparency

[Varus]

I don't see why people couldn't watch, though

Yep. I don't see why either.

 

Oh, actually, this option can lead to a lot of bickering. Wait, no: it WILL lead to a lot of bickering.

 

But that's the price of transparency.

 

I'm honestly curious as to what the RPC's administration will do.

[FreelanceWizard]

So... yeah. I've been following this thread, and I just want to throw my two cents in for transparency. If you redact anything, some people are going to assume "conspiracy" and cry shenanigans. Anything that needs to be private should be handled privately among the affected LSs. Anything like a PM providing evidence for a concern should be raised obliquely ("I've gotten at least one PM that suggests to me that X is a problem").

 

I'd gently suggest that the best approach is a moderated chat room. LS leaders can speak; everyone else can watch. This also gives an opportunity for people to raise issues to their LS leader during the meeting. For extra points, implement a moderated questions, answers, and comments period at the end for the non-leaders. That way no one can say that anyone is excluded or that anything is hidden.

[Corin Winterborne]

I think I'm going to have an unpopular opinion here, but I don't see the big hullabaloo about the need for "transparency."  They are not the RP Police.  It's been pretty clearly stated that they aren't here to enforce or make rules, only to facilitate communication between Linkshells.  So why do people feel the need to know everything that goes on between meetings?  The only thing I can think of is people wanting to rubberneck and /popcorn at potential drama or paranoia the that Big Bad Linkshell Leaders are out to get them.

[Havoc Snow]

I'm still pretty new to the community so I've kept my opinions mostly to myself, but I'm kind of with Nate on this. I don't really see what the big fuss is about. Would saying something in PMs really make a big difference compared to redacting something? Taking things to PMs only generates gossip and what not.

 

What happens if during the meeting person A goes to person B in PMs, then person B tells person C about their conversation with person A and then person C makes a big fuss about person A not saying whatever they are saying in the meeting? Sorry if that didn't make sense...

 

The point is, if something is said and then later redacting it feels less conspiratorial than if something was said hush hush and then found out about later.

[FreelanceWizard]

I think I'm going to have an unpopular opinion here, but I don't see the big hullabaloo about the need for "transparency."  They are not the RP Police.  It's been pretty clearly stated that they aren't here to enforce or make rules, only to facilitate communication between Linkshells.  So why do people feel the need to know everything that goes on between meetings?  

 

Personally, having been a guild leader in the past, I don't particularly care about what's discussed, so much as the negative perception that publicly announced, private meetings tend to generate. If a group of RP LS/FC leaders announce they're having secret meetings organized by this site, there'll be a not inconsequential number of people raising the "conspiracy" and "clique" flags. True or not, that perception looks bad to them and makes the community as a whole look bad.

 

Also, transparency helps defuse any claims that this group of LS leaders are in fact angling to be the RP police, trying to enforce rules, or (worst of all to many RPers) specify and enforce a particular take on the lore and a direction to the plot. Since that last part has actually happened in RP communities in other games (Blood Elves on Moon Guard in WoW, as a recent example), some people are going to be a bit concerned about it.

 

So, it's a perception issue, really, that helps engender trust and communication. That's especially true if some LS or FC in the future refuses to be part of the meetings or is refused access to them for some reason. If they've been open and forthright up to that point, it'll be harder for the claims of conspiracy to take root.

[Grott]

The only thing I can think of is people wanting to rubberneck and /popcorn at potential drama or paranoia the that Big Bad Linkshell Leaders are out to get them.

 

Well no one's out to get anyone, because no one can get anyone. It's ridiculous to think that anyone in this game and it's community has legitimate power over anything other than their own character. 

 

That being said, I want transparency, not because I think they're the government and trying to conspire against me, but because it seems very cliquish to me to have secret conversations which could possibly be about some of us and the linkshells we affiliate with and keep it a secret. It's a manners thing, not a security thing.

 

To me, it comes down to "What makes you better than the rest of us? Oh, right: nothing." I understand the need for organization between linkshells in a roleplay capacity so I'm not going to belly ache about the meetings themselves, but there's nothing so important in there that us puny mortals have to be left out.

 

That's how I feel about it at least. Maybe I'm crazy.

[Aysun]

I can't believe there is all this being raised over them redacting things. Especially from you Deirdre? You seemed ok with redacting all of your comments here...

 

While I think in future it would be better if the leaders approached it in a fashion that is more like "if the rest of the community can't see it we probably shouldn't talk about it," the redacting and such was agreed upon by the leaders present because the topic was sensitive. Can we move on? It's really not that huge of a deal, and in future they can handle it differently.

[Deirdre]

I can't believe there is all this being raised over them redacting things. Especially from you Deirdre? You seemed ok with redacting all of your comments here...

 

While I think in future it would be better if the leaders approached it in a fashion that is more lik e"if the rest of the community can't see it we probably shouldn't talk about it," the redacting and such was agreed upon by the leaders present because the topic was sensitive. Can we move on? It's really not that huge of a deal, and in future they can handle it differently.

 

Well it's a good thing I'm not a Linkshell Leader participating in open talks, eh Aysun?

And apparently to some people yes, this is an issue. That is why the topic was brought up and that's why it is being dealt with.

[faceman7381]

I remain indifferent as a Linkshell Leader.

 

To be honest, it is whatever the community wants, I agree with.

 

But, I will also follow any rules and guidelines set out for these meetings.

 

In its best form, this site should be nothing more than a place for other RPers to meet other RPers and display their character ideas and stories. 

 

As it seems right now, with server choices, leader meeting etc., maybe it is best to consider just scaling back to where it is just that?

 

I don't know, just a thought.

 

Anyways, everyone is doing a good job!

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Konner

[Grott]

And apparently to some people yes, this is an issue. That is why the topic was brought up and that's why it is being dealt with.

 

This is one thing I can't stress enough. Any time any issue seems to come up, everyone gets so terrified of disagreement that they try to shoot it down and pretend it never happened.

 

People will always disagree. The only way to come to any sensible solution is to let people discuss it. 

 

We're not children and we don't need kid gloves. We're adults with opinions and ideas and those can't be properly presented if any sort of difference is immediately snuffed out for fear of hurting someone's feelings. Everyone should know that none of this is personal before even going into a discussion. But discussions need to happen or everyone will remain pissed off forever.

---

this site should be nothing more than a place for other RPers to meet other RPers and display their character ideas and stories. 

 

Also this. For the love of god. This. ^^^^^

[Alothia]

Apparently it's a problem for more than just Deirdre. Other people feel like there are things that are being said that should be public knowledge. I think that this thread is pretty even headed, doesn't really call anyone in particular out, and seems to be provoking a good discussion that hasn't devolved into an argument.

 

With that said, I have to commend everyone in this thread who has responded to this in a level headed manner. If more of our threads went this way, I'd be a happy mod indeed.

[Aysun]

I can't believe there is all this being raised over them redacting things. Especially from you Deirdre? You seemed ok with redacting all of your comments here...

 

While I think in future it would be better if the leaders approached it in a fashion that is more lik e"if the rest of the community can't see it we probably shouldn't talk about it," the redacting and such was agreed upon by the leaders present because the topic was sensitive. Can we move on? It's really not that huge of a deal, and in future they can handle it differently.

 

Well it's a good thing I'm not a Linkshell Leader participating in open talks, eh Aysun?

And apparently to some people yes, this is an issue. That is why the topic was brought up and that's why it is being dealt with.

 

"It is a good divine that follows his own instructions."  ~William Shakespeare

 

My point really is that this has totally gotten blown out of proportion and is just downright silly at this point. There's discussion, there's expression of opinion.. and then there's these hostile "I'm right and you're wrong and hiding something" posts. That's when it just gets silly.

[Alothia]

 

My point really is that this has totally gotten blown out of proportion and is just downright silly at this point.

 

 

I don't think that this has gotten blown out of proportion at all. No one here is trying to start an argument at all. We're all having a conversation here like adults.

[Deirdre]

I can't believe there is all this being raised over them redacting things. Especially from you Deirdre? You seemed ok with redacting all of your comments here...

 

While I think in future it would be better if the leaders approached it in a fashion that is more lik e"if the rest of the community can't see it we probably shouldn't talk about it," the redacting and such was agreed upon by the leaders present because the topic was sensitive. Can we move on? It's really not that huge of a deal, and in future they can handle it differently.

 

Well it's a good thing I'm not a Linkshell Leader participating in open talks, eh Aysun?

And apparently to some people yes, this is an issue. That is why the topic was brought up and that's why it is being dealt with.

 

"It is a good divine that follows his own instructions."  ~William Shakespeare

 

My point really is that this has totally gotten blown out of proportion and is just downright silly at this point. There's discussion, there's expression of opinion.. and then there's these hostile "I'm right and you're wrong and hiding something" posts. That's when it just gets silly.

 

Sorry but this thread was fine until you posted.

You just made the thread all of the things you are calling it out for.

[Xenedra]

So, it's finger pointing time? Pretty sure that's where these things start to spiral out of control. We already had to lock a thread yesterday, can we avoid it today, PLEASE?

[Kylin]

Ok, I did not notice that the end got entirely lopped off there. That is indeed a forum character limit restriction in play and nothing else. I'll have to see if it'll let me add the rest in (or make a second post with the rest). Wish someone would have clearly pointed that part out in the beginning :lol:

[Gerik]

I think I'm going to have an unpopular opinion here, but I don't see the big hullabaloo about the need for "transparency."  They are not the RP Police.  It's been pretty clearly stated that they aren't here to enforce or make rules, only to facilitate communication between Linkshells.  So why do people feel the need to know everything that goes on between meetings?  The only thing I can think of is people wanting to rubberneck and /popcorn at potential drama or paranoia the that Big Bad Linkshell Leaders are out to get them.

 

I'm gonna agree here. To be honest, the stuff that gets redacted or edited is to avoid drama. You'll recall in our first LS Leader meeting minutes a certain "individual" came up, and in fact the entire purpose of being vague was to avoid drama.

 

Regarding an individual: A specific individual was brought up in the meeting due to various negative interactions between said individual and several linkshells/individuals, including accusations of attempted sabotage toward the RPC in general. This is considered one of those rare topics that will not be fully disclosed publicly in the meeting logs/summaries in order to minimize drama. However, in order to maintain transparency, any member of the RPC is more than welcome to contact me and receive a copy/pasted summary/statement about this discussed issue privately. Note that no name will be revealed in this statement, however.

[Curtis West]

hehe I tried as soon as I found it / read it :angel:

[Aysun]

The posts I read earlier in the day were quite hostile. I suppose my problem with most of this is the tone your posts appeared to have with Kylin initially, and the fact that it was posted in a completely unrelated topic. If the tone was unintenional, then great. As much as people get after me about my tone, it bothers me when it's just okay for others to do it.

[Edricane]

The posts I read earlier in the day were quite hostile. I suppose my problem with most of this is the tone your posts appeared to have with Kylin initially, and the fact that it was posted in a completely unrelated topic. If the tone was unintenional, then great. As much as people get after me about my tone, it bothers me when it's just okay for others to do it.

 

Alright, this is a forum, everything is written down. You can not take tone from something that is written. Unless someone is outright attacking someone else, there is no reason what so ever to assume someones tone over a forum. More choice words probably could be used in addressing things, but it's your choice to take the words as you want to. I see no attacks on anyone. Take a breath, step back when you read a post and try to see it from other angles. As it is said, we are all adults, please be adults, keep to the subject.

[Aysun]

The posts I read earlier in the day were quite hostile. I suppose my problem with most of this is the tone your posts appeared to have with Kylin initially, and the fact that it was posted in a completely unrelated topic. If the tone was unintenional, then great. As much as people get after me about my tone, it bothers me when it's just okay for others to do it.

 

Alright, this is a forum, everything is written down. You can not take tone from something that is written. Unless someone is outright attacking someone else, there is no reason what so ever to assume someones tone over a forum. More choice words probably could be used in addressing things, but it's your choice to take the words as you want to. I see no attacks on anyone. Take a breath, step back when you read a post and try to see it from other angles. As it is said, we are all adults, please be adults, keep to the subject.

 

Once again, we arrive at that vicious circle we all seem to love getting into.. If there is no tone, why is it I get so much hell for mine all the time? This is completely derailed, which was never my intention. My intention was to post my opinion that the subject of what goes on at an LS leaders meeting being censored to avoid drama because a sensitive thing was being discussed was hardly something to get riled up over as some appeared to be. I thought it was silly to be preaching about transparency as if this were more than just a meeting of people discussing RP stuff, not a meeting of congress, as if our rights were violated or something. And I was just rather surprised as to who was bringing the subject up to begin with, and how.

[Gerik]

The posts I read earlier in the day were quite hostile. I suppose my problem with most of this is the tone your posts appeared to have with Kylin initially, and the fact that it was posted in a completely unrelated topic. If the tone was unintenional, then great. As much as people get after me about my tone, it bothers me when it's just okay for others to do it.

 

Alright, this is a forum, everything is written down. You can not take tone from something that is written. Unless someone is outright attacking someone else, there is no reason what so ever to assume someones tone over a forum. More choice words probably could be used in addressing things, but it's your choice to take the words as you want to. I see no attacks on anyone. Take a breath, step back when you read a post and try to see it from other angles. As it is said, we are all adults, please be adults, keep to the subject.

Ok, before this thread proceeds, people need to start reading over their posts before spazzing on the "post" button.

 

Everyone is free to their opinions here, whether they be radical, moderate, or whatever. However, some of you need to really fix your TONE. That's my big gripe right now. Tone sets the mood for everything, and I've noticed that some here are coming off as way too abrasive/defensive/whatever. Stop it. Just stop. Like in real life, people have to modify their behavior in society regardless of how brash they want to be. This is no different.

 

Source: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=2422&pid=28841#pid28841

[Varus]

Meh. 

 

Just let the general community watch the meetings if they are THAT concerned. 

 

If people want to watch, they can ask someone to drag them into the meeting channel - no leader should deny that to any member of the RPC. If such a thing does happen, well that's a totally different can of worms.

[Eva]

I can't believe there is all this being raised over them redacting things. Especially from you Deirdre? You seemed ok with redacting all of your comments here...

 

While I think in future it would be better if the leaders approached it in a fashion that is more lik e"if the rest of the community can't see it we probably shouldn't talk about it," the redacting and such was agreed upon by the leaders present because the topic was sensitive. Can we move on? It's really not that huge of a deal, and in future they can handle it differently.

 

Well it's a good thing I'm not a Linkshell Leader participating in open talks, eh Aysun?

And apparently to some people yes, this is an issue. That is why the topic was brought up and that's why it is being dealt with.

While perhaps not a linkshell leader, you do apparently own all of the decision-making for the Wiki, you are the administrator of the large Skype channel that most RPers are directed to, and you seem to have taken on ownership of a voice chat as well.  So it may be that you don't lead a linkshell community, but you are a very important and influential figure in this community and Aysun made an interesting point in spotlighting something where you'd redacted something you'd once said.  I imagine you had good reasons for doing that, and I don't think anybody really leapt down your throat about that back then.

 

Now it's already been advocated that future LS meetings be unedited and most everyone is in agreement about this.  Or perhaps we'll open the thing up to everyone.  At this point the whole thing is starting to feel bureaucratic and burdensome, and my understanding is that we're all here to have fun.

 

This... is not.

 

Is there actually anything more here that needs to be discussed or can this please, please be put to rest?

[Grott]

This next bit is about hostility in threads. If you wish to skip it, I have opinions on transparency below it.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread was being hostile at all until the last half of page 3... The second someone drops the "You're being hostile" card, things actually get hostile.

 

Really though, we are quite literally in a public forum. I've never heard of any type of public forum where people just sit around and agree on everything. Furthermore, I don't get why every time there is a disagreement, someone ironically escalates it by telling people to calm down, and then someone makes it even worse by threatening to close a thread.

 

Poor Beatric yesterday put up a thread for a healthy discussion about grit vs. beauty in the world of Hydaelyn and even that got shut down because for some reason everyone thinks that any disagreement of opinion is a blatant and hostile personal attack.

 

Everyone needs to leave their seemingly extremely fragile egos at the door so we can actually have a decent conversation about an issue. 

 

That's all I have to say about thread arguments.

 

Other than that, I think it's a no-brainer that LS meetings should be completely transparent. The redaction was clearly a misunderstanding, but the secrecy of these meetings is why everyone got paranoid about it. Besides, I'm only seeing two sides to this argument. Those sides are "We need more transparency" and "I don't care." I haven't seen a single argument for less transparency.