Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view

[Moondoggie]

Just a note. The harem culture has also been a part of the human society, so it's not like sentient creatures are above it. We just need to understand what kind of emotional attachment (or lack of it in this case) such human beings could have in order to perhaps understand Miqo'tes. I personally don't understand a thing, for I believe that jealousy and possessiveness are also natural emotions that every or most sentient creatures would experience (?).

 

Well most of the animal kingdom no. I suppose it depends what you consider "sentient" There are some animals that mate for life but for the most part it's sort of make babies and move on to make more babies .

 

When it comes to cats it's very much like this. And Lions have the whole one male has a group of females that he will breed with and form their own groups. Miqo'te have some similarities to wild cats by the sound of it. I suppose looking at it from a human perspective it's hard to understand how they could have sex and then move on and that would depend on them thinking how we do where we very much often mix sex and love together.

 

Miqo'te seem to me at least be interested in creating strong families so their children will be healthy and will be able to thrive so finding partners who will give them the best offspring is more important than how they feel about them. Not that i can't imagine some might have loving feelings towards a partner but i lean more to most of them behaving more like wild cats where it's survival of the fittest and they seek partners for these reasons.

 

They don't seem to be the type to care much about what their partner does after they have done their business together.

[Lost River]

Now with all said and done, I wonder what a psychologist's point of view for a given race would be. Or to do one of other races, sure it isn't canon as SE hasn't given much information other than some basic tid-bits for us all to fill in. Now if they start writing books like some other MMO companies (I know SE isn't a MMO company, but has a division), mayhap we'll learn some more!

[Dravus]

I suspect a bit of clarity is in order since one of my earlier posts seems to have unfortunately been misinterprated. I wasn't suggesting that everyone who seeks to portray a 'nunh' or argues in defense of this subject is vile or crude. I was simply offering my own point of view and stating that there's a strong chance they're going to be viewed with suspicion or distrust if they make such a big deal out of their character's sexuality.

 

To use my own character as an example, Theodric is bisexual. Chances are he'll be enjoying the company of a fair maiden or strapping lad whilst settling down for the night in a tavern during his travels. This doesn't mean that it is a huge part of the driving force behind my role-play or the character concept I've chosen. Chances are I won't even be incorporating it in my actual role-play - he'll probably just reference the act in passing now and then after waking up the next day. I'm not even opposed to ERP provided it's done tastefully and respectfully without blatant gimmicks or fetishes being thrown into the mix.

 

Now, how does this relate to the matter at hand? Simple: if someone is putting such a huge focus upon the mating aspect of miqo'te culture where their character is concerned then I think it's fair for that role-play to be given constructive criticism. Choosing to portray a 'nunh' is likely going to make a lot of role-players wary and for good reason. Many negative stereotypes exist because there's enough people out there conforming to them.

 

Hopefully this clears things up, or maybe I've just dug myself a bigger hole. Either way, I'm not even sure what's going on in this thread now since tensions seem to have gotten a bit too high. Let's just all agree to disagree and avoid stifling alternate points of view out completely, eh?

[Kismet]

While I do not find the thread pointless, because there is nothing wrong with theory-crafting and discussion... I am a little confused as to why it came about? The lore already distinctly states how both Miqo'te clans go about mating, so there wasn't really a need for speculation on that front. When it comes to RP, things will not always be so black and white. This I know. But the overly-extensive expansion upon the subject just seems unnecessarily excessive to me.

[YesGood]

**Snip**

 

See, THAT is the answer I was looking for!  And THAT should be the focus here.

---

I asked that out of sincerity; NOT out of jest.  And I got the answer I was looking for in detail.  The reason why I couldn't see it prior was because I come from different environments of RP where things are not taken into such detail.  Taking the example from WoW that Sio was pointing out with the Kaldorei: I've unfortunately never seen anyone go to such lengths and detail to actually time all of the biological processes right and instead having wolf possessing-female orcs with 11 inch genitalia (This is an actual thing:  Click at your own risk ).

 

To those who put that much consideration into what you write: you are awesome.  It was mostly my misconception of the RP expectations of this community.  That is it.  No flame wars.  Nada.  In fact, I'm mostly pleasantly surprised by the amount of thought going into people making their characters in this respect.  It's a nice thing to see and read.

 

Sorry if I got a little excited about it. I just get thoroughly worried when I see things that may (intentionally or otherwise) put other people down when they're giving some thought to something that might come up for -someone- or several someones out there. It happens so much in WoW and that entire community across all the active RP servers has made me a bit gun-shy.

 

Playing Elves, I spend a lot of time having to explain to people as I mention things that I read and add to parts of my character because their character, likely of the same race, has never considered it. Some are really obvious, like the Sin'dorei/Quel'dorei addiction to magic; it's a race-wise addiction, they -need- it to live, they're magical creatures but how many Belf/Helf RPers actually -ever- mention it? Very few in my experience. Similarly, there are many things about Nelfs that's included in the story-quests and such that are small and easily overlooked but should be something fairly normal. Eating live octopus and rice and kimchi-- Nelfs were based, in part, off of aspects of Korean culture and while the last two, rice and kimchi, for Nelfs are common fare, eating live octopus isn't strange. I've met RPers who tell -me- that Nelfs are purely vegetarians, and even one who went so far as to claim that if a Nelf ate any kind of animal product they would get sick and probably die. I digress...

 

I like to have outlines of things and facts, even facts I may never use. I appreciate people who feel the same way and I feel relieved that others who might not can at least appreciate the time some more depthy people put into things than I do.

 

 I understand that people sometimes choose to make excuses for their characters' lack of knowledge at times, like they were raised outside their culture or they've gotten amnesia or something, and I can appreciate trying to get involved in RP and learn the lore as you're introduced to it-- this is one of the easiest, most enjoyable ways to go about it because you're learning from other RPers. I just feel that if I've got the time and energy, I might as well do as Myxie did, to a much lesser extent, and start trying to put pieces together so that I can help play a role in the community of someone who is somewhat standard, racially, with traditional beliefs; to reinforce all of the players who choose to be exceptions, as well as to stick with what I like to do, myself. I'm glad to see more for Miqo'tes, I'm just a bit sad that I'm having trouble finding more for Roegadyn. Sorry, there, Velk, and tyvm for being open minded. I did think you were jesting and hadn't realized that you'd never experienced what I have. =3=;

[Shuck]

As for a scientific, statistical basis for proving the worth of this thread, it's unnecessary. If fifteen to twenty people come up to me and say "Hey, I really enjoyed/learned from that thing you wrote," it has value, even if a small group or even the majority has no use for it. Just today since this thread has been resurrected, I've gotten three new rep boosts for the original post from people who missed its original run.

 

Limited value to a small number of people, and is as unnecessary a talking point as hard data backing up the "value" of the statement.

 

Basically, we're saying that nobody cares how many reputation points you got for it, and it doesn't effect our opinion of the subject matter in this thread in any way, shape, or form.

 

Personally, I can't fathom why you would even think it's worth bringing up.

 

I just hate when I see someone pop into a thread (any thread, not just my own) and say "Why does this even exist? I don't need this. It's unnecessary." Why even bother posting that? In my mind it's like walking into an Alcoholic Anonymous meeting and saying "I can hold my liquor. This group is stupid." And another guy walking in and saying "Hell yeah! Who wants to get a beer?" Or standing outside a soccer stadium and proclaiming "Your sport sucks! American football is the only football!" It adds nothing to the discussion and often brings worthwhile discussion to a screeching halt as we spend the next two pages arguing back and forth until one side finally throws up their hands and leaves the thread.

 

I think the sentiment here is more along the lines of "You've dug entirely too deeply, and are entrenching yourself in territory that's not entirely sound, and may attract a lot more negative, weird bullshit than it will positive."

 

 

If you honestly believe there's something positive to be gained from continuing to argue about this, please send me or the person you're arguing with a private message, and we can discuss it further.

 

Nnnno. No, this is a public forum, where we discuss things out in the open so everyone can see and contribute to them. We're gonna go ahead and keep using it as such, obeying the established rules of course.

 

 

If you have discussion relevant to the original topic of discussion, by all means post it. If you want to see a discussion of other aspects of Miqo'te culture, start a thread on that.

 

We have been! Thanks for the endorsement. We'll keep doing so.

 

 

If I see this thread continuing to devolve into something worthy of the depths of 4chan or reddit, I will request that it be locked. Please allow it to remain constructive for people like Siobahn, Clover, K'nahli, and others who are spurring discussion that is on topic.

 

The fact that people disagree with you does not lower the quality of the thread. You don't get to claim shit like that. Honestly, this isn't even a very good veil for what amounts to a personal insult. Do you really think that nobody can tell that you're throwing this crap out there? Because it's not that hard to decipher. Let's not behave like adolescents. We know you've got people you like. We know you don't really like us. Big goddamned deal. We're gonna take part in this discussion anyway, and that has no bearing on it's quality.

 

Oh, I see. I kinda of stated the same in my previous post actually so we are in agreement ^^ If I gave a different impression then I apologise for being unclear. I don't mean to imply that miqo'te are different on a mental level but rather that their cultural mannerisms are more closely comparable to animals than modern society(but as I said, this can apply to any race).

 

Nah, they honestly just resemble tribal humans. Like, that's it. A ton of tribes that still exist worldwide have power structures like this.

 

In fact, if they were more non-human in behavior, the rules wouldn't be quite so rigid.

 

Onward.

 

 

Was this really the only thing I've said so far that you can make anything debatable out of? I'll consider myself doing fairly well then. I didn't really feel I needed to express how I was obviously joking and I realize that what he's doing is not-so-discreetly drawing attention to some male Miqo RPers who are 'obviously' (by whoever's definition) only after some cyber fun. That was my mistake.

 

But just as that is a blatant foible, assuming you know what another person is doing just because you're interpreting their actions, my humor is a parody of that. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough, but you seem to have the teeth out anyway.

 

We always have our teeth out. It's a problem, we know, but braces are expensive.

 

Sylvari in GW2 are trees that look like people. Elves, Orcs, Trolls, etc. in Warcraft are humanoids also. Does this define them as being 'human' in nature? No. Sexually, physiologically, they're all supposed to be vastly different. If something is not human but close to human, genetically, then they're still NOT. HUMAN. Therefore we can only relate to the characteristics that we find similar to our own and attempt to justify or understand them using our own understanding of ourselves plus what we see. In truth, we don't know what goes on in a cat's head as it lives its day to day life, we just assume it's not capable of any higher level of thinking or feeling than its most primal instinct allows because it's not us and we're not them.

 

Sylvari aside, sure, they're supposed to be vastly different, but they aren't. Orcs are observably similar to Barbarian human tribes (because that's who they're supposed to be), Elves are similar enough in everything they appear to produce viable offspring with humanity, and their social structure is always something similar to "Noble" society in whatever time-period they're part of, and the Trolls in Warcraft are skating some really shady territory with the fantasy genre's tendency toward racist caricatures.

 

I mean, granted, none of it's supposed to be serious, but these are easily identifiable societies and rituals because they're all human rituals.

 

The only ones that stand out in this crowd are the Sylvari, who are just kind of aping humans. They reproduce via falling out of a pod. Like a seed. Sure, they're equipped for sexual relations, but that's, according to the lore, largely because the tree is trying to imitate the dead guy by it's roots.

 

 

That same condition applies to races in this game. Even 'humans' aren't really human, they're Hyur; Lalafell, Elezen, Roegadyn, and Miqo'te also aren't human by any definition and along with height difference and gender-oriented prestige, there'll very likely be as many biological differences in the individuals of their species as there are differences in their basic skeletal, muscular, and overall genetic structure. Having a functioning, higher-thinking brain doesn't mean everyone uses it the same way, we see that in different human societies so why is it so hard to accept that maybe, just maybe, the different races have different outlooks on what is normal versus what is abnormal for them rather than what is normal versus what is abnormal for the roleplayer?

 

It so does not in a few of those cases. Societally, none of these people are distinct from humanity. None of them. At all.

 

Physically, you have a point with the Elezen, Roegadyn, and Lalafell. We have no idea what's going on in there. We know that Hyur are humans. We know that. Just like "Humes" were human. They're supposed to be "us", and arguing that they're something else entirely is kind of a useless endeavor. You'll push that stone up that hill forever.

 

Anyway, as for each of these races having a different outlook on shit, nobody's arguing that. They probably have as varied an outlook on this as any group of people in the real world. But none of these viewpoints deviate from what we can see in the real world. They just don't.

 

Elves occupy the "Noble" stratum, once again, with the Dark Elves being more solitary and mistrusting.

 

Roegadyn are comparable to any other seafaring society that's ever existed. They have raiders. Most are fishers. They sail. The ones that live near the volcano worship it.

 

On, and on, and on. What's being posed here, in this particular sub-discussion, is that there's nothing radically different that would separate us, out here, in the real world, from the races portrayed in this game.

 

I have little to no interest in anyone's opinions of real life sex or the amount you've had or not had and thus how much you want in game or how one might feel the need to posture and act like a big boy or girl at the mention of ERP by putting anything that might vaguely be related to it down as hard as they can manage.

 

All I see here from nay-sayers is 'It's wrong, it's wrong, not because I have facts to disprove it but because you don't have every single detail worked out and SE just isn't going to give it to you'. Hence it's a theory, not a law. She's not forcing it down your throat, she's offering something that could potentially be legitimate.

 

That's not true. I've said "it's wrong", but I've expounded upon why before. I'll do it again here:

 

Exclusive inbreeding on this scale would require a working knowledge of bad alleles and how they get passed along in order to maintain a healthy genetic stock. Natural selection doesn't do all the work it has to do in an organized society of sentient individuals, so all it would take is one particularly crafty individual that doesn't know he's a trainwreck of genetic disorders to seize power, and fuck up an entire generation. Because the Miqo'te have no fucking idea what genetic engineering is, and in a tribal society, wouldn't know a sickness until it produced symptoms (which is entirely too late).

 

On top of that, with homogenous genes comes the risk of a single disease wiping a tribe out.

 

Then there's the myriad of issues we see popping up in a really handy real world example: Pedigree dogs. We watch their genetic health. We selectively breed them. We control as many variables in that environment as we can, and they are still prone to a great deal of health issues that mixed-breeds just don't get.

 

Her original post negates all of this in favor of selling her hypothesis. It's bad science, good salesmanship.

 

There. There you have it.

 

And on the matter of rep-- Myxie pointed out rep as an indicator, rather than just counting up posts over nine or ten pages, that people appreciate the consideration she's given this topic and the brain food it offers. Putting it down doesn't erase it, doesn't make those people ignorant or stupid or naive, and doesn't make you look any smarter by getting in fights over the impact of numbers. They -don't- account for everything by a long shot, plenty of people probably haven't read this thread and still more would probably at least enjoy her post before this mess started.

 

And it also doesn't account for the people who, like us, don't find it helpful/see some major flaws in the thinking. What about it? We've already established that it's a pointless thing to throw out there, and the message being broadcast was "This doesn't matter, don't try to use it as a talking point."

 

I'm personally tired of hypocrisy, as much of a hypocrite as I can be at times. I don't like meeting someone new who's afraid of doing something or not doing something because a bunch of people they don't know or respect said that it's 'overdone' or it's 'meta-gaming' or that they'll be a mary-sue because of it. Warcraft, SWTOR, GW2 are all filled with as many of the most generic, bland characters as outrageously over-powered ones, if there aren't more of the generic kind.

 

Yeah, peer review can be rough.

 

I can't tell you how many individuals in Silvermoon City alone have 'Looks like your average Sin'dorei' or 'Troll' or 'Orc' or 'Tauren' or 'Forsaken' written in their MRPs, and those that don't, seem compelled to fill in a paragraph-long OOC disclaimer of WHY they chose to make their character a little prettier than 'average'. It's stifling creativity. Just because some people don't want to think a bit more on the potential differences instead of just assuming all races are meatier, taller, shorter, child-like versions of our own doesn't give anyone the right to sit in here and try to convince others how wrong they are for taking two minutes out of their day to apply some critical thinking skills.

 

Sometimes, you're totally right. Creativity gets stifled, and that sucks. It sucks a whole bag of dicks. Other times, an idea is just fucking bad. Not even necessarily on it's own! Let's take a walk:

 

Say that everyone is suddenly inspired to make a character that is just a little bit special. Great. Awesome. Say they even all somehow, magically find a way to make their specialness unique. Holy shit, this is amazing, right?

 

No.

 

See, now everyone is special. And that means being special ain't all that special. It becomes mundane. When it becomes mundane, you can kind of start to ignore it. When you can start to ignore it, becomes narratively superfluous, and at that point, ditch it, because you're wasting your time.

 

When people are steered away from these "special" things, they tend to focus more on making a character that actually functions...like...a person. Which is great! In my opinion, it's the only goddamned way to go. Because people don't have gimmicks. They don't have one thing that makes them unique. They're a complex mish-mash of shit, and it's the messy, half-made nature of us all that makes for compelling stories.

 

Anyway, back on point: This has nothing to do with not thinking a bit more. Nobody's being lazy about this. You're just talking about a race that's observably human. We know they eat, sleep, drink, produce waste, and breathe. So their internal structures have gotta be pretty similar, given that they're also all bipedal hominid-style things. Their societies are similar to ours (falling just figurative micrometers short of being direct mirrors). They're us. And they're us, because we made them. There's no getting around that.

 

You -don't- and may -never- know if a Miqo'te has scent glands or goes into heat, humans don't to the extent of felines, but we also don't have enhanced vision, hearing, or smell which Miqo's might. Those little things that you want to say 'take them off and they look human' makes them -inhuman- and that's the point you should be focusing on. How are they -different-? How can they be more -interesting- than humans with a catgirl cosplay fetish?

 

Actually, there's a great deal of things we can tell just by looking at them. Their sense of smell can't be all that much better, because they don't have any additional space to put the nasal cavities needed for advanced scent detection. There's just no room for the extra chemoreceptors.

 

We can also figure that they don't have sight that's much better than ours in any light. There's no reflection to their eyes in the dark when light hits it. Which means no tapetum. Which is a reflective membrane that lets cats and dogs see pretty well in the dark.

 

We know that their tail counts for nothing, because tails don't really help bipeds. An animal that uses a tail for balance typically has a long, heavy one. They lean forward, because the mass of the tail pulls them backward. Bipeds stand upright, so a long, heavy tail would actually serve to put them on their heels. Which would make them easier to knock over.

 

Can't speak for the hearing, as the most we know is that their ears are shaped a little differently, but are largely the same size. They probably hear things very well in the direction that their ears are pointed, but due to the shape, not so great when it comes to things they aren't pointed at. We can also say that the position of their ears would be...interesting for the inside of their skull. They'd need to have large cavities to facilitate all that inner-ear business, which would leave less room for brain. Alternatively, the cavities are not large, and they don't hear as well as you'd think.

 

Basically, when we get down to it, I don't think the Miqo'te can be more interesting than "human in costume" unless we talk more about how human they are, and less about their goofy ears and useless tail.

[Vinter]

I suspect a bit of clarity is in order since one of my earlier posts seems to have unfortunately been misinterprated. I wasn't suggesting that everyone who seeks to portray a 'nunh' or argues in defense of this subject is vile or crude. I was simply offering my own point of view and stating that there's a strong chance they're going to be viewed with suspicion or distrust if they make such a big deal out of their character's sexuality.

 

...

 

Now, how does this relate to the matter at hand? Simple: if someone is putting such a huge focus upon the mating aspect of miqo'te culture where their character is concerned then I think it's fair for that role-play to be given constructive criticism.

 

The thing about this topic is that it actually has very little to do with sex, and more to do with trying to figure out a foundation for Miqo'te society.

Like I said in an earlier post, pretty much all of our society is based around breeding. It's a biological imperative for most humans to procreate and pass on their genetic information, and so that practice, and how we deal with it, influences every part of our society.

 

We have entire industries devoted to providing tools to deal with infants. Diapers, car seats, clothing, harnesses, toys to help with mental development. If we instead laid eggs, that likely wouldn't be the case, we'd have heat lamps and that's it.

We have houses for each individual family, where we quite literally lock out everyone in our community who isn't our immediate family, and double beds because we want to sleep next to our mates.

Again, something based entirely around our own particular mating strategies.

Marriage.

I can go on but I think I've made my point.

 

The same is true for animals. The structure of a lion pride is directly determined by the mating strategies of the lions.

 

So it's reasonable to assume that the same would hold true for Miqo'te. That's why if we want to understand how their society might be structured, how they might interact with one another, what their values and motivations are, we first have to understand how their species continues to exist, ie. their mating strategy.

That is one, if not the most important factor shaping their culture.

[Dravus]

Coincidentally I come from a WoW background as well and most of my time was spent role-playing a blood elf in a manner that revolved more around what made them distinct from humans rather than what made them similar to humans. So I can certainly understand where people are coming from when they're looking to go rather in-depth and embrace whatever cultural/physical differences exist between humans and their chosen playable race.

I just think it needs to be more well rounded and that some aspects don't require much attention at all. Most role-players don't describe in detail how their character empties their bowels - and for good reason. Some things are best left out of role-play altogether or just touched upon lightly rather than speculated over in excruciating detail.

[Orlog]

I have to say, I've been sticking around this thread because I enjoy the back and forth debate about the topic. But this:

 

 

For the four of you from Misericorde who seem to be spurring argument here, I'll say this:

 

If you honestly believe there's something positive to be gained from continuing to argue about this, please send me or the person you're arguing with a private message, and we can discuss it further. If you have discussion relevant to the original topic of discussion, by all means post it. If you want to see a discussion of other aspects of Miqo'te culture, start a thread on that.

 

If I see this thread continuing to devolve into something worthy of the depths of 4chan or reddit, I will request that it be locked.

 

...has me concerned. Is it just because we're all under the same Linkshell? Because there have been various other people who aren't with us who've said the same thing, but haven't gotten any sort of nod. It's just "mean old Misericorde" going at a debate again, expressing differentiating ideas (because, you know, a debate has two sides) again! We're an opinionated bunch, but it never goes beyond just countering a point.

 

Seriously, though. When you post stuff like this, it's open for questioning. People are going to disagree and see different ways of it, some people are going to agree and both are entirely fine. If you were looking to write up a thesis and not have any input, then I suggest putting it in an areas that's designed just for the writer and NOT for discussion.

 

And ...I'm a little put off that you compare the people who disagree with you openly to people on 4chan and Reddit. I can understand that having your ideas picked apart can be difficult, but there's no trolling going on here. It's just a discussion.

 

Anyway, back to watching the discussion continue.

[YesGood]

I had a really long response for Shuck on the matter of developers and games versus realism and pointless attributes that make no evolutionary sense such as slit pupils but no reflective tissue and not needing to code those things in anymore than making pupils get bigger in the dark... But mostly, I agree with you.

 

If Miqo'tes are merely meant for fanboys and fangirls that want to play kitty people (and not even furries), then there's no reason to think they're genetically any different. If you're going to acknowledge, however, that cat ears, fur, slit pupils, musculature, and tails must have, if we'll treat them seriously, had some function during their evolution then you might as well acknowledge they closest they'll come to being human outside their mannerisms and ability to think freely is about as close as humans to chimpanzees. Not to say Miqo'tes are -lesser- in any way, but the equivalent differences without the mental obstacles.

 

Again, I do agree with you. I like to play traditional characters when I can, not only because I enjoy learning a lot with one race as a basis, but because I like to support those special snowflakes with their super special snowflake characters. Just because there are a lot of them doesn't mean that more good can't come of them, it's just up to people who -want- to play your proverbial 'mudblood' to play one and not bark up their tree for choosing to do something else.

 

--Sorry, Myxie, I read your post a little too late.

[Clover]

As I mentioned before, I need to understand my Miqo'te's mindset, and this is definitely the part of her mindset I don't understand much. Reading this post made it easier for me to figure out what her views are supposed to be and how to avoid being a part of them, as the lore info was too vague and left me with more questions than answers, so it was all good.

 

Velkyron and Theodric, I'm glad that things have been clarified in the end. No harsh feelings! ^^

 

Shuck, I don't know why you insist on discrediting this post and the OP. You aren't really going to convince anyone that this post was actually not useful for us even if it was, so, please drop it? *Sweatdrops*. I don't see what the big deal is, or how all this drama is necessary.

 

 

(PS: Because I just noticed the next post: Bea, what Myxie meant was that it's unnecessary to come to a discussion post and complain about its mere existence. That's not a real contribution and, as you can see, it's brought nothing good to a post that used to be informative).

[Vinter]

Then there's the myriad of issues we see popping up in a really handy real world example: Pedigree dogs. We watch their genetic health. We selectively breed them. We control as many variables in that environment as we can, and they are still prone to a great deal of health issues that mixed-breeds just don't get.

 

If anyone actually cared about the health of show dogs, we wouldn't have the english bulldog or the slanty-back german shepherd. We care about their appearance, we couldn't care less if they can breathe or not.

 

And it also doesn't account for the people who, like us, don't find it helpful/see some major flaws in the thinking. What about it? We've already established that it's a pointless thing to throw out there, and the message being broadcast was "This doesn't matter, don't try to use it as a talking point."

 

 

Anyway, back on point: This has nothing to do with not thinking a bit more. Nobody's being lazy about this. You're just talking about a race that's observably human. We know they eat, sleep, drink, produce waste, and breathe. So their internal structures have gotta be pretty similar, given that they're also all bipedal hominid-style things.

 

You just described a kangaroo. Are you going to argue that a kangaroo is a human too?

 

Basically, when we get down to it, I don't think the Miqo'te can be more interesting than "human in costume" unless we talk more about how human they are, and less about their goofy ears and useless tail.

 

Highlighted the key word here. Other people in this thread are trying to have what they consider an interesting and productive discussion. The only thing you're doing however, is shitting all over that because in your opinion this topic isn't interesting or worth discussing.

So why should anyone care what you think? What makes your prescence in this thread desirable, if all you're going to do is antagonize people and act like a dick?

[Orlog]

So why should anyone care what you think? What makes your prescence in this thread desirable, if all you're going to do is antagonize people and act like a dick?

 

How is disagreeing with a topic antagonizing people and acting like a dick?

 

Now you're just getting straight up rude. I'm going to say this again, because apparently ya'll just come in on every other post. People are allowed to disagree. People allowed to agree. This isn't the "eveyone who agrees with me gets to post" club. Everyone has a right to post here, and don't you say otherwise. Back the fuck up.

 

Holy hell, get back to the discussion. If you're going to just outright flaming people, take it to PMs.

 

Edit: And before you whine about how I'm coming to the defense of a friend, no. It just happens to be something I see going on right now. If I seen people acting this way towards anyone else for no particular reasons because disagreeing IS MEAN, then you'd get the same damn response.

[Shuck]

This was the wrong decision for you.

 

If anyone actually cared about the health of show dogs, we wouldn't have the english bulldog or the slanty-back german shepherd. We care about their appearance, we couldn't care less if they can breathe or not.

 

Fact remains that it's an undesirable trait that we can't quite breed out of them. We would if we could! Because that would mean less issues in taking care of the damned thing, and a longer-standing trophy.

 

But we can't, because the code's too junked.

 

Image macro reply

 

Nice. Anyway, that's not an opinion, the total number of reputation points that someone gets from a post don't matter. Does my 17 reputation prove I'm super cool? No. It doesn't. In fact, I wish you motherfuckers would stop giving me reputation points. I liked it at zero.

 

Anyway, fact, not opinion: They don't matter.

 

 

You just described a kangaroo. Are you going to argue that a kangaroo is a human too?

 

Kangaroos aren't hominids. I specified hominids. You ignored that, for some reason. So, no. No, I'm not, and that's not the argument being presented, and this was a bad attempt at standing up to a "meanie".

 

Highlighted the key word here. Other people in this thread are trying to have what they consider an interesting and productive discussion. The only thing you're doing however, is shitting all over that because in your opinion this topic isn't interesting or worth discussing.

So why should anyone care what you think? What makes your prescence in this thread desirable, if all you're going to do is antagonize people and act like a dick?

 

I'm not antagonizing. I'm providing my point of view, same as anyone else. I don't really care that you don't like it. I find it odd that you attempt to shrug off valid points with "BUT THAT'S YOUR OPINION!" like it means anything. It doesn't. My opinion is as weighty as any other.

 

Also, I never said it wasn't worth discussing. You're making up arguments that weren't presented, and you're not the first to try that. I said that the depth to which this has been discussed is odd. It's odd. I find it odd. Tough shit.

[YesGood]

Edit: After reading the post following this post, I realize what I said is the same thing, only not so eloquently worded in some places.

[Vinter]

So why should anyone care what you think? What makes your prescence in this thread desirable, if all you're going to do is antagonize people and act like a dick?

 

How is disagreeing with a topic antagonizing people and acting like a dick?

 

Now you're just getting straight up rude. I'm going to say this again, because apparently ya'll just come in on every other post. People are allowed to disagree. People allowed to agree. This isn't the "eveyone who agrees with me gets to post" club. Everyone has a right to post here, and don't you say otherwise. Back the fuck up.

 

Holy hell, get back to the discussion. If you're going to just outright flaming people, take it to PMs.

 

Edit: And before you whine about how I'm coming to the defense of a friend, no. It just happens to be something I see going on right now. If I seen people acting this way towards anyone else for no particular reasons because disagreeing IS MEAN, then you'd get the same damn response.

 

Because you're not adding anything to the discussion, you're fucking derailing it!

This is a discussion about the mating strategies of the miqo'te and their implications on miqo'te society, not a discussion about the validity of a discussion about the mating strategies of the miqo'te.

 

If you, however, feel that such a discussion would be a productive use of your time, you're perfectly free to start a new thread titled "Is there any point in discussing miqo'te mating strategies?" but that's not what this thread is about.

 

This was the wrong decision for you.

 

I'm shaking in my boots already.

 

Fact remains that it's an undesirable trait that we can't quite breed out of them. We would if we could! Because that would mean less issues in taking care of the damned thing, and a longer-standing trophy.

 

But we can't, because the code's too junked.

 

We could, but we don't want to. There's a difference.

There are german shepherds with straight backs who are just fine. And there are types of bulldogs that are just fine as well. We specifically breed for these flaws because we find them attractive.

 

Nice. Anyway, that's not an opinion, the total number of reputation points that someone gets from a post don't matter. Does my 17 reputation prove I'm super cool? No. It doesn't. In fact, I wish you motherfuckers would stop giving me reputation points. I liked it at zero.

 

Anyway, fact, not opinion: They don't matter.

 

No, fuck that. Uther +1'ed Velkyron's post stating that the thread is pointless. Myxie chimed in saying that some people do think there's a point to it, and backed it up with ratings and PMs. You then start arguing that the opinions of those people are irrelevant, again, implying that there's no point to this discussion. But apparently it has value to the people who rated it up. So the only pointless thing here is your argument.

 

Kangaroos aren't hominids. I specified hominids. You ignored that, for some reason. So, no. No, I'm not, and that's not the argument being presented, and this was a bad attempt at standing up to a "meanie".

 

So, you're the one who defines what a homonid-style is? It has two legs, two arms, two ears, a nose, a mouth, two eyes, plantigrade feet.

A homonid is member of the great ape family. Last I checked, SE had not mentioned Miqo'te being great apes. So a kangaroo is as much a homonid as a Miqo'te.

[Dravus]

The discussion has evolved naturally to be about more than just the core point of the thread itself. This is normal and expected of pretty much any debate that has gone on for quite a while - especially if people begin exploring alternative theories and viewpoints.

 

...and it seems rather odd to call people out on 'derailing' a thread after deliberately aggravating them by tossing accusations their way. Either way, this thread seems to quite rapidly be going down the 'he said, she said' route which isn't going to work out well for anyone involved I'd wager.

[Vinter]

It didn't evolve. People were still discussing the original topic, and shuck was just chiming in condescendingly shitting all over people's posts in passing.

[Rodin]

No, fuck that. Uther +1'ed Velkyron's post stating that the thread is pointless. Myxie chimed in saying that some people do think there's a point to it, and backed it up with ratings and PMs. You then start arguing that the opinions of those people are irrelevant, again, implying that there's no point to this discussion. But apparently it has value to the people who rated it up. So the only pointless thing here is your argument.

 

No.  I did not say it was pointless.  That's an outright fabrication.  Here is what I said:

 

...no disrespect to anyone in this thread, but...what is the point of this?  In a game where there is a pretty clear secular outlook on things (with a few notable exceptions, such as the Ishgardians), why does something that only have relevance to a rather personal part of Mi'quote life have such a rather lengthy and thorough thread on the subject which basically revolves around sex?

 

While I can gather that a good foundation of their culture is partially based on this, I don't quite understand much point of it at all.  I see this thread for no other race in this forum: only the Mi'quote.  Why?  Are us Roegadyn players not good enough?  Would Lallafel be considered too weird?  Hyur too mundane and elezen be having too much of the pointy ears?

 

While some of the conjecture is interesting, I really don't see the point of it.

 

I said that I could not see the point, not that it did not exist.  And from that I got opposite spectrums of responses: one which was incredibly insightful and helped me to see the point of the thread and the other chastising me for supposedly making a mandate that suggests everyone believes as such.

 

I was, in fact, speaking for myself.

 

I wasn't going to post in this thread after thanking Siobhain for some very interesting and insightful perspective, but when I'm called out like this, that is unacceptable.  I've only JUST started participating in this community.  I did not realize such hostility was par for the course.

[Lost River]

This is sadly the murky waters we tread with such a discussion, especially when it calls for sciences that are speculative at best due to no hard evidence to follow with the scientific process; even in a hypothetical approach to it, we're not given enough information prior by the developer of said race for the game; so a fill in the blank and speculation is what is called for.

 

I find it an interesting take on something, not accurate and not inaccurate, it's a speculative take on the process in a fun way to show it as if a biologist would approach when going for a more laymen's terminology as to 'why'.

 

No right or wrong answers in this, just theories and speculation in itself... which apparently has spurned a debate (which is good) that has evolved into "I'm right, you're wrong." bit (which is bad).

 

In short, we don't have enough data provided to follow up fully with the scientific theory.

 

I believe this article should be locked as it's slowly being derailed into the abyss.

[Orlog]

 

 

Because you're not adding anything to the discussion, you're fucking derailing it!

This is a discussion about the mating strategies of the miqo'te and their implications on miqo'te society, not a discussion about the validity of a discussion about the mating strategies of the miqo'te.

 

If you, however, feel that such a discussion would be a productive use of your time, you're perfectly free to start a new thread titled "Is there any point in discussing miqo'te mating strategies?" but that's not what this thread is about.

 

Have you actually been reading this thread through, or did you just come in when people were saying their uncertainty of the purpose of this thread? 'Cause the thread went off into a different topic way before we got here, then were was the uncertainty, and then people went back to explaining why they disagreed with the theory that was posted. That's... all within the topic of the thread, so I'm not really sure where you're pulling this from.

 

But, no, this topic is fine to continue this discussion, seeing that it pertains to the topic at hand. No one is talking about whether or not this thread should exist anymore. No one. There's some people disagreeing with the theory, and then people getting really upset about people disagreeing with it, and then some pointing fingers. So, if anything. YOU'RE derailing the thread more than anything else.

 

 

Debates continue!

[Shuck]

 

Because you're not adding anything to the discussion, you're fucking derailing it!

This is a discussion about the mating strategies of the miqo'te and their implications on miqo'te society, not a discussion about the validity of a discussion about the mating strategies of the miqo'te.

 

If you, however, feel that such a discussion would be a productive use of your time, you're perfectly free to start a new thread titled "Is there any point in discussing miqo'te mating strategies?" but that's not what this thread is about.

 

Actually, at this point, you're de-railing it. By insisting it was de-railed when it has not, in fact, been de-railed.

 

I'm shaking in my boots already.

 

Nobody asked you to be. This was a statement of fact. This is the wrong choice for you.

 

We could, but we don't want to. There's a difference.

There are german shepherds with straight backs who are just fine. And there are types of bulldogs that are just fine as well. We specifically breed for these flaws because we find them attractive.

 

No, dude. We can't. There's no breeder willing to sell his product that would not want his product to be more desirable. Extra health care expenses are not a desirable trait in a product, and leads to a higher turnover in trophy-dogs.

 

If at all possible, these breeders would have, for pure market interest alone, removed these undesirable traits from their breeds in order to make them more marketable to a broader base of people, so that they could make more money through higher volume of sales.

 

The dogs that are "just fine" are outbred every now and again to ensure that there's significant genetic drift within the family line. They may not use other breeds of dogs, but they limit inbreeding as much as possible.

 

Nobody finds respiratory issues "attractive". Nobody finds leaky, diseased anal glands "attractive". You're off base.

 

 

No, fuck that. Uther +1'ed Velkyron's post stating that the thread is pointless. Myxie chimed in saying that some people do think there's a point to it, and backed it up with ratings and PMs. You then start arguing that the opinions of those people are irrelevant, again, implying that there's no point to this discussion. But apparently it has value to the people who rated it up. So the only pointless thing here is your argument.

 

I'm arguing that the counter of reputation is irrelevant. You've yet to address that. It's still irrelevant. It bears no meaning on the actual merit of anything being discussed. I can give everyone a +1 on everything. Freely. It amounts to nothing.

 

 

So, you're the one who defines what a homonid-style is? It has two legs, two arms, two ears, a nose, a mouth, two eyes, plantigrade feet.

A homonid is member of the great ape family. Last I checked, SE had not mentioned Miqo'te being great apes. So a kangaroo is as much a homonid as a Miqo'te.

 

No, that's science. Science determines what is, and isn't a hominid, or like a hominid.

 

On this kangaroo thing, which you seem weirdly hooked on, they're still not even close to being like hominids. What with them being marsupials. They use their long, heavy tails for balance (something that hominids don't have)and as a brace to stand upright, hop for locomotion (which hominids aren't likely to do), develop their young in a pouch, have elongated jaws with relatively small craniums... I mean, I can't believe you're even trying to argue this, but ok. You're wrong in every way possible.

 

I mean, they're part of the Macropodidae family of Marsupials, which is preeeettty physically divorced from hominids, or anything resembling them, so it's like...what the fuck are you even on about?

 

Anyway, Miqo'te have a lot more in common with modern hominids than anything else. We've already established that their method of locomotion is the same as any other upright biped. Their tails aren't large or heavy enough to account for any balance, and are basically vestigial.

 

They can even have babies with humans and shit. Like for real. I'm not joking. There ain't no kangaroo-man babies out there. Because they're not similar in the least.

 

Really, that last bit shoots your argument entirely to shit by itself, but I'm gonna go ahead and leave you this right here so you can chart for yourself exactly how many degrees by which you're wrong.

 

On a more personal note, this is still a terrible attempt. It really, really is. You can't argue that discussions don't get to evolve (or ignore the part where I showed up well after the direction of the discussion had changed) simply because you don't like me. I don't need you to like me. Nobody needs you to like me. Nobody cares that you don't.

 

On top of that, you can't throw out something like "KANGAROOS AIN'T A MAN SO HOW A MIQO'TE A MAN!?!?" and expect that to fly when they're genetically similar enough to have offspring. It's also weird that you're apparently upset about being told you're wrong on this outrageous attempt at a strawman fallacy in claiming that I have, singlehandedly, argued that this is not worth discussing (you've erected an argument that wasn't presented, and then went ahead and attacked it. I'm just clarifying, because apparently you think "hominid" is a fluid term, not a specific one, so who knows what else is unclear for you.) Also, then there's this kangaroos being like miqo'te, even though they're obviously not even kind of, and...your whole point is just a mess.

 

It's a huge mess. A huge wrong mess.

 

So yeah. Miqo'te: Pretty much just people with cat ears and a goofy tail. As such, not terribly "mysterious" or "special". This isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing that is.

[Nnejo]

I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but the reason this discussion seems so race based is because of what has been presented to us. The lore states that the Miqo'te maintain an insular group mentality. 

 

 

With that in mind it seems a large number of players wish to discuss the cultural aspect of Miqo'te society. What with them being a tribal people in origin and all I think this thread is just a discussion. (As it is located in that section of the forums after all  )

 

 

I am still currently reading through the myriad of pages here (currently on page 5). Guess I will drop in my two gil once I'm all caught up. Seeing as my linkshell and roleplay will be exploring the non-tribal side of things with my Miqo fem. Heh page 5 is entertaining though. Will be back with something that contributes to the discussion, promise!

[Ellie]

As fascinating as the possible biological evolution of Miqo'te, and the fact that they're genetically similar enough to mate and produce healthy offspring with the other five races with little complication is, I'm afraid this discussion has gone off the rails and delved into some pretty unsavory territory.

 

The rules require us to be respectful to one another, whether you started it or responded in kind. Please get back to the respectful discussion of Miqo'te sexy time, or else the thread will be locked and sexy time will be over. Thank you.

[Shuck]

As fascinating as the possible biological evolution of Miqo'te, and the fact that they're genetically similar enough to mate and produce healthy offspring with the other five races with little complication is, I'm afraid this discussion has gone off the rails and delved into some pretty unsavory territory.

 

The rules require us to be respectful to one another, whether you started it or responded in kind. Please get back to the respectful discussion of Miqo'te sexy time, or else the thread will be locked and sexy time will be over. Thank you.

 

Wait, am I to understand that biology is not related to sexy time?