Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored

[Myxie Tryxle]

Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored

 

Purpose of this Guide

 

Reading through the different backstories as well as some of the discussion posts on the forum, it seems like the ritual of combat between a Nunh and a Tia will be a big concern for those playing Seekers of the Sun. Whether it appears in your backstory or as part of a character or guild’s plot, it would be nice to have some discussion to make this an interesting and vibrant topic.

 

I’m not actually playing a Seeker (my character is a Keeper), so hopefully I can provide an air of objectivity to get the discussion started. I’m hoping for a lot of input from the community, since I’m not much of a social scientist, as you’ll see below.

 

 

My Credentials

 

I took two sociology classes in college over ten years ago. I had breakfast with Jared Diamond once. (He wrote Guns, Germs, and Steel, and came to my college to give a talk about it. He’s a pretty awesome guy to meet in person.)

 

 

Seekers of the Sun

 

Quoted from the naming conventions for Seekers:

 

“Males do not take family names, as they are each considered the ‘origins’ of new families. In place of a family name, they are given a title that denotes their tribe, and their position within it. For a male Seeker of the Sun, there are only two positions available - breeding males (nunh – pronounced ‘noon’) and all others (tia – pronounced ‘tea-ah’). All males are born as tia. At any time in their lives, a tia can challenge the tribe nunh to battle. If the tia is victorious, he takes the nunh’s place as tribe breeding male (until he is challenged and defeated), and the nunh becomes a tia once again (if he survives the ordeal). This is done to ensure that the tribe’s offspring are of the finest stock. Depending on its size, a tribe may have multiple nunh (a ratio of one nunh per ten to fifty females is average).

 

There is only one other way a tia can become a nunh, and that is to leave his tribe, and start his own. This, of course, requires several females to accomplish, and most female Seekers of the Sun are rarely impressed by a male who cannot defeat a nunh. As all letters of the alphabet are already taken by the 26 original tribes, any new tribes founded by tia are named with a second letter, such as "Ma" (e.g. "Ma'shtola"). These tribes tend to die out due to the aforementioned lack of women.”

 

Given that there are 26 established tribes, and the potential for players to introduce even more, that leaves a lot of room for diversity among cultural practices. I haven’t encountered the Seeker tribes in the game yet, so I don’t really have any information in the form of established lore, but I’m guessing that even when more of the lore is established, it will likely come from only a handful of the 26 tribes. This will leave room for players to be inventive with their tribe’s culture, and that’s what I’d like to encourage through this discussion. I think it would be pretty boring if every tribe dueled in exactly the same way. Human tribes and cultures came up with a variety of options and rituals associated with their duels, and it’s likely the Miqo’te would do the same.

 

Given that humanity has generated innumerable cultures with a variety of practices throughout its history, I’ll be using human examples as well as a little bit of brainstorming on my part to get the ball rolling. Some of these may be reasonable for Miqo’te and some not, but it’s all thought provoking. Depending on how tribal or modern/cultured you wish to play your tribe, the rules will likely vary widely. As a comparison to human society, many of these practices started out very brutal with duels to the death and evolved to be more gentlemanly or even outlawed due to social pressure and changes in attitudes about the value of life and human/civil rights.

 

 

Dueling in Human History

 

For as long as humans have been in conflict with each other, there have been established rules (both written and oral tradition) for settling those disputes. Duels occurred in the United States and many European countries well into the 1800s, despite laws being leveled against their practice. In some countries and some cultures (and some counter-cultures) the practice persists to this day. I’ll mostly be referencing the Western notion of a duel, as that is what I’m familiar with. Depending on the situation, rules could vary widely, but generally followed a similar structure.

 

All duels start with a challenge, sometimes referred to as a “demand for satisfaction.” To refuse a challenge is considered dishonorable or cowardly. Each participant appointed another man to be his second. The duty of the seconds is to agree upon a time and location for the duel as well as assure that all aspects of the duel are fair.

 

Once a suitable location had been found and a time for the duel set, all parties would meet and discuss the conditions or terms of the duel. These tend to vary between cultures and historical periods. Some common choices for conditions include:

 

• Victory conditions: first blood, submission, incapacitation, death
  
• Weapon choice: matched weapons versus individual preference
  
• Limited resources: three shields in a Viking duel, a certain number of shots or volleys in a pistol duel
  
• Stakes or consequences for winning or losing the duel
  

 

Once terms had been decided and the seconds agreed that the terms were fair, the duel commenced and resolved based on the skills of the duelists.

 

 

Historical Archetypes

 

I’ll now go into some of the different historical methods whereby humans engaged in dueling. Hopefully these will inspire some interesting methods and culture for those playing Seekers of the Sun. If any of these interest you, I suggest looking them up on Wikipedia (where I researched most of this information) or other sources, as I’m only giving a short paragraph for each.

 

Jousting

 

One of the early forms of ritualized dueling, this involved knights with lances riding each other down and trying to knock the other off his horse. Originally, the joust would often be followed up with a fight using hand weapons like swords, maces, and flails to settle the terms of the duel. Later jousting became much ritualized as a sport, with points being awarded for dismounting your opponent as well as breaking your lance against his armor/shield, and the winner declared by points after a certain number of rounds.

 

Renaissance Sword Fighting

 

This sort of duel began as a means for gentlemen to settle courtly disputes. Many different styles of swordsmanship were developed for fighting such duels. For those interested in these sorts of duels, I suggest looking into the roleplaying game 7th Sea by AEG and its less insightful bastard son Swashbuckling Adventures in d20/D&D. There are expansive rules and a long list of fully detailed swordsman schools (which includes schools for fist fighting, spears, bows, and a variety of other weapons) for inspiration.

 

Iajutsu/Iaido

 

This is the Japanese art of quick-drawing the sword from its scabbard and striking your opponent in the same swift motion. While I’m unsure if this was ever used in historical Japan as a means of dueling, it was expanded greatly as a means of dueling and dispute resolution in the roleplaying game Legend of the Five Rings by AEG and its d20/D&D derivation Oriental Adventures.

 

Holmgang

 

This is the ancient Nordic practice of dueling. When a challenge was made, the participants would meet at a specified location and set out an animal skin on which to duel. It evolved over time to have a variety of conditions, but in general, a death in Holmgang was not considered murder and may or may not require restitution in the form of weregild. Later versions of the practice instituted a very small maximum payout to discourage dueling for profit. Another form involved each man producing three wooden shields and taking turns striking each other until the shields broke. The first man to lose his third shield or submit lost the duel.

 

Pistol Duels

 

This famous type of duel involved each man taking a loaded pistol, walking ten paces while the seconds counted, turning and firing on their opponent. Rules varied between one to three shots, with any more than three being considered barbaric, and the loser being the first person to suffer a gunshot wound. This later evolved in the American frontier to be a contest of both speed and accuracy with participants quick drawing revolvers at high noon. (As far as this could apply to Miqo’te, I suppose it’s possible a tribe could do this with bows or even magic.)

 

Just Plain Weird Duels

 

There have been a handful of duels noted in history for their exceptional strangeness. These are referenced on the Wikipedia page for dueling. They include a duel by two Frenchmen in hot air balloons trying to shoot out each other’s balloon and force them to fall to the ground as well as another duel by two Frenchmen in which they threw billiard balls at one another. The final, and weirdest, involved a challenge between two Germans in which one suggested they be presented with two sausages to eat, one of which had been infected with Trichinella (though historians apparently doubt the validity of this scenario).

 

 

My Own Brainstormed Ideas

 

These are ideas I came up with that have some cool potential for Seeker tribes. Some might recommend themselves well to existing tribes. Others may only see exploration through a guild specifically designed by the community to introduce a new or lost tribe with very different culture from the norm.

 

Machiavellian

 

Disclaimer: I’ve never read The Prince, despite many times deciding I should, so my input here will be little informed to the details of that text. What I envision here is a culture where cunning is valued over strength. Likely this would be associated with tribes that revere animals like snakes, spiders, and scorpions. The males would be political animals, the duel would involve maneuvering and backstabbing, and due to the need for subterfuge there would be no direct challenge. Rather, all males would be rivals and seek to secure and maintain the position through whatever means necessary. They would need to be prepared at all times for an assassin (or a poisoned drink) and go to great lengths to secure and maintain power.

 

Survival Challenge

 

This would be something along the lines of the recently popular survival shows on the Discovery Channel. Each male would be stripped to a limited wardrobe and given a knife before disappearing into the wilderness, most likely a desert or jungle. For one week, they must try to survive to the best of their ability. If both survive the entire week and return on the seventh day, the elders of the tribe will decide based on their health and condition which one performed the strongest. Alternatively, this could be combined with the endurance test below, where both men enter the desert, and whoever survives the longest before returning home is declared the victor. I imagine in this case there would be certain historical grounds, say a pair of five by five malm squares marked off and designated for this purpose, just so they could observe the challenge and know when to declare a winner.

 

Tightrope Joust

 

It’s been stated on several of the wikis that Miqo’te are renowned for their excellent balance (a typical trait of species with long tails). In this case, the challenge tests their agility and balance as well as strength. Each of the participants mounts a tightrope or balance beam with a spear, lance, or staff. I can see options for a single tightrope, two tightropes, or even a field of upright logs or pegs so the challengers can leap around the field in an attempt to gain high ground or some other advantage. You could even make it more complicated by having swinging pendulums or starting the two rope duel with acid dripping onto the ropes or a portion of the ropes on fire to add an air of urgency. Whichever challenger stays on the rope the longest claims victory.

 

Endurance/Willpower Test

 

This would be a challenge specifically designed to test the participants’ endurance, stamina, and willpower. Basically the idea is to see which one of them is truly the most driven and the most dedicated towards the goal. Examples would include the legendary swimming challenge described in Beowulf or the more modern challenge of the publicity stunt where a car or motorcycle dealer will give away a vehicle to whichever person can keep their hands on the vehicle the longest.

 

 

In Conclusion

 

I hope that this has inspired some of you to come up with different possibilities for your Seeker tribe to experience the duels associated with dominance among Seeker males. I expect that if you’ve fleshed out the culture for your tribe, that will suggest a certain kind of dueling, certain terms, and values associated with strength, honor, and life. If you haven’t fleshed out that culture yet, perhaps figuring out how they duel will give you more insight into their cultural values as a society.

 

I haven’t even gotten into the rituals that would likely surround these duels, but I consider that an effort for those of you writing culture for your tribe. I’m sure that as long as these duels have been practiced, they’d develop a wide range of ceremony - from immediately grabbing a spear and drawing a circle in the sand to elaborate pre- and post-duel ceremonies along the lines of The Hunger Games. In fact I can see a tribe where when the Nunh dies or steps down, they have an event for all the eligible Tia similar to that of The Hunger Games. I’d love to hear ideas other people have for how their tribe undertakes this very important rite.

---

Protection or Warding Duel

 

I just had another idea for an interesting type of duel where there is either a fragile item (like a clay pot or effigy of a baby) or a second included as part of the duel, and the objective is to destroy your opponents guarded item or strike a blow on their ward. The idea here being that nunhs are protectors of the tribe, and whichever is more capable of protecting something or someone precious deserves the position.

[Khaze'to Zhwan]

Good to see another well thought out post.  Makes things a little easier to consider for the tribes when its laid out like this.  This is I take it meant more for one on one challenge and not say Tia fighting it out after the death of a Nunh, although some of them can be adapted.

[Swift]

Hard at work as ever I see, Calli Thank you!

 

There are all really interesting ideas, and I especially like the latest one about protecting a fragile object--perhaps it could be more akin to a Capture the Flag type of game, too, in the cultures that like a bit of strategy and guile with their Nuhns.

 

It actually kind of reminds me of a Thanksgiving themed family game called "Turkey!" (or something like that) that I played in kindergarten. Two players would have a single "feather" (usually cut out of construction paper) of a randomized color taped to their back, and were made aware of only their color. The object of the game was to keep the color of your feather a secret while attempting to spot the color of your opponent's feather, and shout out its identity. The catch was, however, that if you say the wrong color, you lose.

I could see this being used in the "protect the ward" scenario, where both Miqo'te have small pots or some other fragile target strapped to their backs, and are tasked with breaking their opponent's. I would suspect that the duelists would often have to throw their own bodies in harm's way in order to protect the pot from spear or staff attacks whilst carrying the burden of having such an awkward weight on their backs--perhaps simulating the weight of their responsibilities of defending the tribe.

 

Additionally, the "Machiavellian" scenario you provided immediately made me think of the Drow's culture in the Underdark. Unfortunately the political-espionage campaign set there that I had the opportunity to play in didn't get very far, but it immediately became apparent just how difficult it was for anyone to live in a place like that (especially when you were insistent on not playing a Drow like I was, lol. My poor tiefling only scraped by using her gut-decisions and some handy Beguiler spells most of the time).

 

One last thing I'd like to point out, is that I feel some mode of sympathy for the Nuhns that belong to cultures that decide their titles through some of the more extreme/lethal options. The typical notion of a duel, for me at least, is that it's usually instigated by rivals and the end of the duel usually marks the resolution of the conflict itself. But for the Nuhns, they have to settle with an indefinite amount of challenges, and having to submit to such trials as "being 'locked away' in a predetermined area in the desert until either you or your opponent dies of exhaustion" at least three or four times during your life-time (assuming the champion keeps winning) must be hell on one's mental well-being.

[Myxie Tryxle]

One last thing I'd like to point out, is that I feel some mode of sympathy for the Nuhns that belong to cultures that decide their titles through some of the more extreme/lethal options. The typical notion of a duel, for me at least, is that it's usually instigated by rivals and the end of the duel usually marks the resolution of the conflict itself. But for the Nuhns, they have to settle with an indefinite amount of challenges, and having to submit to such trials as "being 'locked away' in a predetermined area in the desert until either you or your opponent dies of exhaustion" at least three or four times during your life-time (assuming the champion keeps winning) must be hell on one's mental well-being.

 

My guess is that this is likely the reason they don't necessarily hold key positions of power, as mentioned in the naming guide. Depending on the culture and the inherent danger of the challenges, the challenge itself could become a tool of assassination for political ends. As for the danger of imminent challenges being nerve-wracking, well they should know what they're in for when they apply for the job.

[Swift]

 

My guess is that this is likely the reason they don't necessarily hold key positions of power, as mentioned in the naming guide.  Depending on the culture and the inherent danger of the challenges, the challenge itself could become a tool of assassination for political ends.  As for the danger of imminent challenges being nerve-wracking, well they should know what they're in for when they apply for the job.

 

I'm really interested to see how some of the Nuhns I'll see running around turn out. There's just so many angles that this one part of their culture can take that it's almost a struggle to make just one character and decide on a single method.

[Kyatai]

Great job, calli! 

Reading all that (and swift's last response) kinda made me think how impossible it would be for any seeker male to be nunh and NOT be challenged when he's not with his tribe. What I mean is: I don't see how any nunh could be an adventurer unless his tribe of females traveled with him. Otherwise, well.... "While the cats away...." Literally. His position would be challenged, his tribe stagnate, the tribe be unprotected & he would be removed from his position.

Of course, any rper wanting to play a nunh could find a work around... Just something to consider, IMHO.

[Aduu Avagnar]

here are some examples I have thought of:

the duel:

lC6dgtBU6Gs

mixing typical dueling, with compliments and discussion on skill to try and throw the other person off guard, as well as throwing them off guard by using different hands to normal.

 

DwN6IncWcjk

Wrestling, so more of a feat of strength.

 

and the battle of wits

U_eZmEiyTo0

a simple task, one of two identical items is poisoned, they both choose one and drink. The winner is the one that doesn't die.

 

in all seriousness, interesting read

[lady2beetle]

One thing that I keep thinking of is the Amazon duels in Son of Neptune. The queen of the amazons was being challenged in a duel to the death, but her opponent was an ally of Gaia and so was coming back every day from the underworld to challenge her again. Every night she had to duel her with the knowledge that she'd eventually lose.

 

Along those same lines, I imagine there would be a limit to how often a nunh can be challenged at when. If the nunh is challenged every night, then he's not going to be able to do his job. So it might be that once you challenge a nunh, you can't challenge him again for 1 month or something. Likewise, there may be a hold on challenges during times of war, because the nunh needs to be protecting his tribe. Of course, to keep a nunh from staying "at war" indeffinitely, you could just say that mating is also not allowed whiel at war, for the same reason.

 

This is all wild conjecture, mind you. I have no evidence at all.

[Clover]

Now that people have been working to get a real tribe running, this post comes in very handy! Thank you very much for sharing the information.

 

I'm personally looking forward to see a Tia challenging any of our Nunhs, and the tension that might create.

[Swift]

One thing that I keep thinking of is the Amazon duels in Son of Neptune. The queen of the amazons was being challenged in a duel to the death, but her opponent was an ally of Gaia and so was coming back every day from the underworld to challenge her again. Every night she had to duel her with the knowledge that she'd eventually lose.

 

Along those same lines, I imagine there would be a limit to how often a nunh can be challenged at when. If the nunh is challenged every night, then he's not going to be able to do his job. So it might be that once you challenge a nunh, you can't challenge him again for 1 month or something. Likewise, there may be a hold on challenges during times of war, because the nunh needs to be protecting his tribe. Of course, to keep a nunh from staying "at war" indeffinitely, you could just say that mating is also not allowed whiel at war, for the same reason.

 

This is all wild conjecture, mind you. I have no evidence at all.

 

I never heard of that story before--sounds interesting. How did it end, exactly?

 

Also, I think the idea of having "grace periods" between which the Nunh can't be challenged (at least in a tribe where such challenges are announced) is a fairly realistic idea. Though I would lean towards the length being along the lines of a year to a handful of years rather than just a month--at least from my point of view with a less-violent tribe. The idea of calling off both mating and challenges during times of war makes sense, too. The governing body of the tribe could assist in defining when the tribe is "at war" or "at peace" in order to prevent the Nunhs from 'exploiting the system'... however, I suppose that means the elders (or whatever the head-honchos are for a specific tribe) could it exploit it for their own reasons, then, too

 

Thank you for the inspiration ;D

 

Now that people have been working to get a real tribe running, this post comes in very handy! Thank you very much for sharing the information.

 

I'm personally looking forward to see a Tia challenging any of our Nunhs, and the tension that might create.

 

-Starts throwing harps and prose books at Growly- >:Q

[Myxie Tryxle]

Some friends of mine are big fans of the zoo and always get yearly passes for the zoo at San Diego. They told me an interesting story where the zoo was having trouble getting some of their larger herbivores to procreate (zebras I think). The solution they found was to move the enclosures around so the zebras were right next to the lions. Apparently being able to see and hear their predators was all the incentive they needed. Proximity to death sparked a desire for new life.

 

It's likely this response is a natural mechanism to prevent overpopulation and thus starvation, but I think the analogy would hold for Miqo'te. If a Nunh is at war and knows he could die any day, I doubt you could stop him from fulfilling the duties of his position. Not to mention that a tribe at war is probably going to be losing a few warriors and needs to be growing to replace any casualties. It's more likely a ban on challenges during wartime would be viewed as a necessity to keep all their warriors in top fighting form, because otherwise the entire tribe may suffer for a Tia's ambition.

 

This is all wild conjecture, mind you. I have no evidence at all.

 

As for conjecture, conjecture away. This thread isn't so much about what is but what could be, since as I stated there's lots of room for players to expand on different tribes and cultures within the Seekers for their own RP. I very much doubt Square Enix is going to produce a solid body of lore for every one of the 26 tribes. You can always retcon it if a conflict does arise later. As the saying goes, "I'd rather beg forgiveness than ask for permission."

---

Thank you for the Princess Bride videos as well. If you're a big fan of Princess Bride, you should check out the 7th Sea Roleplaying Game I mentioned. Princess Bride was one of the principal inspirations for that system.

[Aysun]

While I admire the effort you're putting into these things, I prefer to get my lore in-game rather than extrapolating it through speculation. I'd like to remind people that that's what these posts are, and while interesting and discussion-promoting, that they should be careful not to accept it all as truth.

[Myxie Tryxle]

While I admire the effort you're putting into these things, I prefer to get my lore in-game rather than extrapolating it through speculation. I'd like to remind people that that's what these posts are, and while interesting and discussion-promoting, that they should be careful not to accept it all as truth.

I respect that. Hopefully I made it clear in the introduction of this thread that the only part that is confirmed lore is the part I put in the quotation from the naming conventions.

[Myxie Tryxle]

Part of the reason I've been doing these posts is as a writing exercise. I'm a teacher, and it's summer, so I have a lot of time on my hands. I've been reading Characters and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card, and he brings up the idea of being diligent in your writing about questioning cliches, especially the ones you may not even realize you're accepting. He posits that these cliches, while easy to accept from the point of view of immersion, are also boring. However, there's also the balancing point of believability. You can't change everything in a story away from the cliche or it will become too unbelievable. Pick one or two that will lead to a good story and run with them.

 

In the case of MMOs like this, the lore is the cliche. Being lore conscious is important. I'm not challenging that point, because I certainly don't want to see werewolves (were-Miqo'te?), vampires (and while sparkly vampires are not cliche, they do show that avoiding the cliche is not always the best move), super-heroes, etc. But relying 100% on things only verified in lore is accepting the full cliche, which according to Mr. Card is boring.

 

As Kyatai pointed out in the other thread, a lot of people seem to be accepting and even defending the notion that Miqo'te are just "humans with kitty ears and tails." I'm challenging that notion, because I feel we'll get more interesting stories if we recognize the cliche and actively avoid it.

 

As an example, several people were very uncomfortable with my suggestion that some tribes may practice infanticide the way lions do. I agree that it challenges a lot, but what if that character came from a tribe that revered scorpions and had been living under the boot heel of the Empire for 500 years. Perhaps the only way to become a Nunh in that scorpion tribe is to join the Empire's Special Forces and prove yourself as a ruthless assassin in service of the Empire, willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Now imagine the culture shock and potential for a character from that tribe who finds themselves stranded in Eorzea and forced to interact with free tribes and races they've been told are their enemies since they were born. Whether this character is an NPC soldier in a guild's plot line or someone's actual player character, due to the culture shock there's a lot of potential for some fantastic story there!

---

Just realized I have no idea how old the Empire is, so ignore that 500 years reference. I can't remember if the Empire is that old.

[Aysun]

As Kyatai pointed out in the other thread, a lot of people seem to be accepting and even defending the notion that Miqo'te are just "humans with kitty ears and tails."  I'm challenging that notion, because I feel we'll get more interesting stories if we recognize the cliche and actively avoid it.

 

My problem is far from that. Miqo'te are more than humans with kitty ears and a tail, I've always tried to strive for them to be seen as more than that, too. In doing so, I spoke out against the flat, generic neko-girl stereotype that we had in 1.0 (amongst other stereotypes that I won't get into here).

 

In 1.0, we had no information on this tribal stuff what so ever. We had nothing to go by but what we saw in game, and that's what some of us tried to abide by. That's all I'm doing now. Going by in-game lore. I hope that people who are opting not to go the tribal route due to lack of information in 1.0 and/or lack of lore supporting the tribal culture still being as prevalent as people want to believe does not make us those who are seen as perpetuating that stereotype.

[Myxie Tryxle]

I hope that people who are opting not to go the tribal route due to lack of information in 1.0 and/or lack of lore supporting the tribal culture still being as prevalent as people want to believe does not make us those who are seen as perpetuating that stereotype.

I must admit I can't figure out this sentence, so I may be reading it wrong.

 

I blame Square Enix for not really fleshing the two races out in 1.0. I never understood why they left male Miqo'te and female Roegadyn out in the first place, aside from it being a holdover from FFXI. I view the lore gap for these races as unfortunate, which is part of the reason I'm encouraging discussion on the topic.

 

When it comes to people RPing, I think a lot are playing them like humans just due to the lack of lore. Hopefully that will change as the community catches up on this three year gap with the other races.

[FreelanceWizard]

I blame Square Enix for not really fleshing the two races out in 1.0. I never understood why they left male Miqo'te and female Roegadyn out in the first place, aside from it being a holdover from FFXI. I view the lore gap for these races as unfortunate, which is part of the reason I'm encouraging discussion on the topic.

 

When it comes to people RPing, I think a lot are playing them like humans just due to the lack of lore. Hopefully that will change as the community catches up on this three year gap with the other races.

 

I think a lot of people are playing them like humans because they want to play humans with kitty features. Lore is immaterial at that point.

 

The lore reason why male miqo'te weren't available is because they're rarer and tend to be even more solitary and territorial than the females. It makes sense for Seekers, certainly, since a nunh away from his tribe is going to very quickly no longer be nunh. For Keepers, I can see the matriarchy keeping the rare supply of males close to home -- hoarding, really, after a fashion. In reality, much like F'lhaminn's appearance, it's probably a lore fix for a dev oversight (or poor choice), but it's lore nonetheless.

 

We do need to remember, I think, that not all miqo'te are pure tribals; there's a not inconsequential number living in the city-states, and they tend to be more, well, human than their tribal counterparts due to the cultural melting pot. PCs played as such should be aware of how their race's native culture impacts how other people see them and how it informs their backgrounds, though (unless they were raised entirely away from it). The tribal culture lore is important and should be considered by miqo'te players, and that alone can drive some good conflict RP. The tribal vs. non-tribal conflict is one I hope to help fan the flames of in game. That said, as Aysun pointed out, there's lore and then there's speculation in grey areas, and while the latter is good and interesting, the former is critical and all a player should be expected to follow.

[Aysun]

FreelanceWizard

I blame Square Enix for not really fleshing the two races out in 1.0.  I never understood why they left male Miqo'te and female Roegadyn out in the first place, aside from it being a holdover from FFXI.  I view the lore gap for these races as unfortunate, which is part of the reason I'm encouraging discussion on the topic.

 

When it comes to people RPing, I think a lot are playing them like humans just due to the lack of lore.  Hopefully that will change as the community catches up on this three year gap with the other races.

 

I think a lot of people are playing them like humans because they want to play humans with kitty features. Lore is immaterial at that point.

 

I can respond to both ya in one go!~

 

Basically, in game there is all of one tribe of traditional Seeker NPCs (who live in a well developed camp, with plenty of Eorzean technology and influence.. coatees, even!), while there is a plethora of Seekers living non-tribal lilfestyles in Limsa Lominsa and the surrounding areas, as well as scattered elsewhere as fishers, whores, dancers, Maelstrom ranks, Yellow Jackets, and of course, adventurers. I won't speculate on their reasons for leaving their tribal cultures behind, but obviously they must have? At least some of them have. There was even a Miqo'te in 1.0 that mentioned having a husband.

 

Basically what I'm trying to say is just because a Miqo'te player chooses not to play a traditional tribal Miqo'te does not mean that they are just playing a Hyur with cat ears. In trying to dispel the stereotype with these posts by showing the potential rich culture of the Seekers, you are in fact making it worse for some of us due to the discussion that sometimes follows leading to quotes like the above. As FreelanceWizard eluded to, there is plenty of in game evidence that a majority of Seekers do not practice the reclusive tribal ways, so it completely reasonable that a majority of Seeker-players would not want to have their character involved with it either.

 

Go with either. Do what you want to, honestly. If you want a tribal Miqo'te, great, run with it, the lore supports it. But the lore also supports the non-tribal Miqo'te. The tribal lore is not the saving grace for dispelling the stereotypes around the Miqo'te race, unfortunately. The only way to overcome that stereotype is to prove yourself to be different through RP and have fun.

[FreelanceWizard]

Basically what I'm trying to say is just because a Miqo'te player chooses not to play a traditional tribal Miqo'te does not mean that they are just playing a Hyur with cat ears.

(...)

Go with either. Do what you want to, honestly. If you want a tribal Miqo'te, great, run with it, the lore supports it. But the lore also supports the non-tribal Miqo'te. The tribal lore is not the saving grace for dispelling the stereotypes around the Miqo'te race, unfortunately. The only way to overcome that stereotype is to prove yourself to be different through RP and have fun.

 

:thumbsup: That's what I was trying to get at, and that you've put more cleanly than I did.

 

Personally, I think miqo'te players should have a stance on the tribal lore and how it does (or doesn't!) impact their character, and I don't really think miqo'te familiar with the tribal systems could be completely ambivalent to them, but that's just my opinion.

[Kyatai]

I just want to make something clear:

My statement was not meant to be interpreted as "anyone playing a non-tribal miqo is playing a Hyur with kitty ears & tail." That... Is not how I roll. Saying something like that is like saying "any *insert ethnic race* not living as they do 'in the old country' (be it Africa, Asia, or New Guinea, etc) is not *their race*". That's just wrong.

My intent in expanding on a more cultural/ traditional aspect of my character is solely mine. I find doing stuff like this fun. And it appears others do too.

BUT... by doing so, I'm not saying that those that choose to not engage in tribal/traditional stuff are playing their characters 'wrong.' OR even that they HAVE to come up with a reason why they aren't. Honestly, if they have a great, well-made character... then I want to RP with them.

Would it maybe come up in talking with my Miqo? Sure. IC she'd be curious why another Miqo SS might not be familiar with, or engage in, the traditions. But, that would just be as natural as a tribal from Nigeria coming to the US and seeing a Nigerian American, twice removed, and being curious why he/she wouldn't still be adhering to their traditions.

 

What I meant by those playing a 'Hyur with kitty features' was mainly directed NOT towards RPers at all (we tend to have expansive and logical histories and well-thought out characters), but those that are just into the cutesy-superficial look and NO background. Aka folks playing Hello Kitty avatars.

[Myxie Tryxle]

I've actually been doing these posts to encourage a spectrum of roleplay and tribal values. I was arguing that there should be a spectrum of acceptable roleplay for Miqo'te from lost Amazon tribe to big city socialite, which is why some of my suggested challenges are brutal and some involve little to no bloodshed. This would affect every level, from individual Seeker up to the tribe level. For example, if the raptor tribe became a civilized tribe, they might dominate the goldsmithing and gemcutting trade due to fine eyesight, extra patience, and an attention to minute detail (assuming by "raptor" they mean birds of prey like hawks and owls). This would lead to a very high standard of living. Perhaps in that refined city culture, their means of challenging the Nunh would involve crafting skills or business acumen rather than combat skills. My point being that culture is learned and readily transferable. A Miqo'te as a sentient creature would be the product of their environment and education as readily as any human is.

 

I read Kyatai's quote completely differently. To me it had literally nothing to do with tribal versus city culture. The problem I ran into occurred when I suggested a behavior that was feline or animal in nature based on a different natural history from that of primates. It tended to get a bad reaction. As if somehow the only possible distinctions were human behaviors and less than human behaviors.

 

Though I didn't lay it out specifically in the other thread, my perspective is that Miqo'te are derived from predators. They may be omnivores now, but my assumption is that they would be predator turned omnivore which is likely to have a very different outlook from herbivore turned omnivore. The notion that this difference in natural history would lead to some potentially different values (namely the value of life) and different behaviors just seemed to rub some of the readers the wrong way. Thus my own exasperation with the notion of Miqo'te as "humans with fluffy ears and tails" came from a biological perspective, not a cultural one. I personally feel that when comparing the two species, Miqo'te would be more confident, aggressive, and predatory (though there would obviously be individual variation). I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that my view on this point is very unique given my scientific background, and that I shouldn't expect it to be reflected in the community at large. I do, however, enjoy educating others and engaging in healthy debate.

 

[incidentally, the primary reason scientists believe all feline species are predatory and that none branched out to eat plants has to do with their taste receptors. The entire cat family, from house cats to tigers, lacks an essential protein for building the sweetness taste receptors. No feline is capable of recognizing the sugar content of its food, thus there is no gustatory attraction to sweet foods (like fruits and vegetables). Only salty, fatty, and umami flavors would be attractive to a feline, leading us as humans to consider them 'finicky.' If that were also the case in Miqo'te, they'd remain staunch predators, and any attraction to sweet treats like cakes, pies, etc. would likely be an appreciation for the fat content or flavoring agents like chocolate, not the sugar.]

[Grott]

My Credentials

 

I took two sociology classes in college over ten years ago.  I had breakfast with Jared Diamond once.  (He wrote Guns, Germs, and Steel, and came to my college to give a talk about it.  He’s a pretty awesome guy to meet in person.)

 

My sarcasm meter sometimes breaks on the written word. You're joking, right? Like, you don't legitimately think eating breakfast with a guy counts as credentials, do you? I don't really know who you are so I'm going to need some clarification before I take anything on this thread seriously.

[Kyatai]

I think that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. As saying "I'm a biologist, not a sociologist... but this sounds like a great topic to get input on from the community."

 

And it is.

But despite her biological focus, her research into possible scenarios for dominance (based on real world examples) is legit and thought-provoking (and sometimes silly/fun- but there's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box to make an interesting RP environment.)

The entire point of this thread is to stimulate thought and creativeness for those that wish to create a tribal history/traditions for their Miqo'te.

[FreelanceWizard]

So... I really hate to rain on this thread, but its premise is wrong. The devs have explicitly stated the dominance challenge in Seeker tribes:

 

"At any time in their lives, a tia can challenge the tribe nunh to battle. If the tia is victorious, he takes the nunh’s place as tribe breeding male (until he is challenged and defeated), and the nunh becomes a tia once again (if he survives the ordeal)." (Miqo'te Naming Conventions (dev post))

 

I'm kicking myself for missing that, given all the times I've linked that post. It took a PM from someone for me to notice it.

 

So, that's it, really. There is no other way to challenge for nunh other than a fight if your character is a "normal" tribal Seeker of the Sun. Now, certainly you have a tribe that's different from the norm, but because this would be a pretty major variance from lore, you need to explain why your tribe is like that and be prepared for flak from other tribes that call yours weak because you don't do things the "right" way.

[Khaze'to Zhwan]

So... I really hate to rain on this thread, but its premise is wrong. The devs have explicitly stated the dominance challenge in Seeker tribes:

 

"At any time in their lives, a tia can challenge the tribe nunh to battle. If the tia is victorious, he takes the nunh’s place as tribe breeding male (until he is challenged and defeated), and the nunh becomes a tia once again (if he survives the ordeal)." (Miqo'te Naming Conventions (dev post))

 

I'm kicking myself for missing that, given all the times I've linked that post. It took a PM from someone for me to notice it.

 

So, that's it, really. There is no other way to challenge for nunh other than a fight if your character is a "normal" tribal Seeker of the Sun. Now, certainly you have a tribe that's different from the norm, but because this would be a pretty major variance from lore, you need to explain why your tribe is like that and be prepared for flak from other tribes that call yours weak because you don't do things the "right" way.

Sure you can read it that way but I don't think that is the only way to read it at all.  If he survives could just mean its not an overly violent challenge and maybe ritualised.  Any successful tribe is going to look at other tribes as doing things wrong if they don't do things the same way.  

 

So no I don't think that a fight has to be a physical, no holds barred fight at all.  A challenge could mean ritual as well and the devs are giving us room to play around with ideas.  At least to how I read that.