The greying of the MMO and what does it mean for RP players?

[Zyrusticae]

That's why it really makes me happy that FFXIV is moving more in the direction of the latter. More strategy, more cooperation, less reflex. *shrugs*

But the way the developers described the harder fights in the game, you'll have to maximize your DPS down to the decimal point to win the most difficult challenges. I somehow fail to see how that's very different from reflexes being a major factor in the design (and you can bet they will be a part, as you'll have to react quickly to certain changes on the field in order to succeed).

[CallmeYahweh]

I am firmly in the 'tab targeting' camp of MMO players.

 

I'm okay with it being mostly a numbers game; that's what old school roleplaying games were. Generally, I find that the 'twitch reflex' games are better left to FPS and fighting games. When it's put into an MMO, the result is, (I feel!) a shoehorned attempt to stay 'with the times' or whatever. Tera's combat felt lackluster and I quickly got tired of clicking my mouse over and over again. GW2 was a solid mix of tab and action but the game turned into a huge spamfest with very little considerations put into place for the systems. And, my hands got tired pretty quickly while playing.

 

When playing Tera I kept thinking to myself, why don't I just go pop Devil May Cry into my PS3 and do that instead?

[allgivenover]

[edit] Incidentally, there's not all that significant a difference in ping between playing any given MMO on the east coast or the west coast or in the middle of the country or whathaveyou. Maybe a few tens of ms.

 

Wow, yes there is. If there was no difference then explain the vast popularity of proxy services like WTFast and Smoothping. You should try playing Aion PVP at endgame, where in some cases having a ping as high as 120 ms as I do can translate to a huge disadvantage when facing someone with a ping as low as 80 ms due to them living a state or two closer. Some classes are downright impossible to play well if you live too far from Texas, where the servers are located. /cough Assassin.

[Ildur]

I'd just like to point out that TERA's PVP stinks like a dead cow left to rot in a deep trench filled with other dead creatures for various reasons. The most obvious reason was that PvP was gear dependant, so getting punched in the face when you didn't have the top gear (which required a lot of defeat-grinds in battlegrounds) resulted in you being dead in one nanosecond.

 

The other reason is that it sucks the same way First Person Shooters suck: if you had anything more than 100ms, you were at a disadvantage. If you were higher than 200, you were a serious liability. More than 300 and you were dead before being able to say "Dead!".

Well, technically anything higher than 40ms is a disadvantage on hardcore PvP. But details.

 

I think we have stablished that action combat isn't everyone's cup of tea, mostly thanks to how latency dependant it is.

[Hyrist]

You can avoid literally every attack a mob does in a game like TERA. Every attack has a "telegraph", even if it's just a very brief lifting of one arm. That is not the case for tab-target games, as most attacks from mobs are completely unavoidable. That pirate punching you in the face? He'll be punching you in the face even if you try to run to one side or behind him. That caster mob spamming fireballs at you? Those fireballs will hit no matter where you go. This turns tab-target combat into a race of "who can do the most damage fast enough", which takes a lot of the control out of the hands of the player.

 

Which is more than fine by me. Honestly I prefer to have some unavoidable attacks there.

 

I disagree with the implication that FFXIV in particular is all about who can do damage fast enough. There's plenty of avoidable, telegraphed attacks in the game. And honestly, compared to games like Tera and Guild Wars 2, the system feels more solid to me. In action combat MMOs I feel the burn out a lot quicker. Even that FFXIV and games like it are slower paced, they're appropriately paced.

 

There is a pacing in there that keeps fights going and engaging even multiple runs in, where in a faster paced, action MMO it feels like it would lend itself better to, well honestly, console games. Even with FFXIV I feel better with a gamepad in my hand than with key-binds and a gaming mouse. Sure, I preform better with such things on games like Guild Wars 2 but the result is a more stressful experience for ultimately no additional return on enjoyment.

 

But this has nothing to do with the aging of gamers and more to do with simply preferring a different playstyle. You can make heated accusations of 'boring' or 'dull', but these are ultimately subjective. MMOs will always and forever be about appealing to a niche, and that niche is not the same from game to game, nor should it be reflective on the game's quality what particular appeal it is leaning towards - but rather that it does so effectively.

 

However, more to the subject of the thread: Roleplayers will decide on an individual level what sort of games appeal to them - not on a culture based level. Action MMOs, Traditional MMOs, all of it is irrelevant, really. If someone is in love with the story and lore of a game, and has a penchant for roleplaying there will be some.

[Naunet]

Wow, yes there is. If there was no difference then explain the vast popularity of proxy services like WTFast and Smoothping. You should try playing Aion PVP at endgame, where in some cases having a ping as high as 120 ms as I do can translate to a huge disadvantage when facing someone with a ping as low as 80 ms due to them living a state or two closer. Some classes are downright impossible to play well if you live too far from Texas, where the servers are located. /cough Assassin.

 

If we had Korea's infrastructure, we would be talking about a difference between 15ms (or less) vs maybe 50 or so. Which is virtually indistinguishable.

[sanguineFenrir]

First, some relevant background so you're aware of where I'm coming from:

 

I'm not a member of the older generation(s) of gamers that the article talks about, although it does raise some valid points. Compared to them, I'm quite young. But I do suffer from some of the same issues that they encounter over time. I have a problem in my hands, which I have alluded to in some other threads--I'm not sure if it affects the tendons at the base of my fingers, or something else. But, basically, my fingers are incredibly stiff and I am unable to move them independently. Sometimes their individual segments will snap out (this is called trigger finger) if I try. Only my index fingers, and in some cases, my right thumb, are actually good enough to do anything dextrous like pressing buttons. Typing correctly is impossible--I use a well-practiced hunting-and-pecking system.

 

My reaction time is relatively poor. I grew up on the Sega Genesis (Sonic the Hedgehog, Lion King, etc), and then moved to the original PlayStation. I was able to play these games quite well, even with only two fingers to use on the controller. I have experiences with platformers, like Ratchet and Clank or Crash Bandicoot, so I know how to react when it comes to moving or jumping out of the way.

 

But typically, that doesn't translate well to MMOs. Because of the way WoW calculates its jumps, for example, you can't jump out of fire--you don't stop taking damage in the air. "Fire" or ooze is alright if it doesn't kill you after one second, or if there's a few seconds of advanced warning (ARR does this very well with the red circles, lag notwithstanding.)

 

Things on the floor shouldn't be the only way of testing player skill in combat, although other mechanics tend not to go over well with large, uncoordinated random groups. I didn't level up enough to test ARR's dungeons, and I won't lie--I was quite afraid to.

 

I briefly played TERA, but not enough to fully judge it at higher levels of difficulty. (I almost finished the 1-15 start zone, for reference.) I had no problems playing the game during that easy zone and actually quite liked the reticle system and the ability to dodge relatively quickly. But I realize that, since it was still relatively dependent on being able to hit a lot of abilities (and the number keys) it could have very well gotten to be too much for me in the later levels, as WoW did in 4.0 and 5.0 raids.

 

Action-combat systems have some good ideas. They can be fun, if they aren't too twitchy. It would be nice if reticle-style targeting could be added, for instance, but doing so as an option would probably be difficult to maintain--and it might create schisms and arguments between users of both systems, just like some people discriminate against gamepad users on other forums for this game. Since ARR is aiming to reach a lot of people, (including, as one person said, the older players in Japan,) and since the game is trying to be a "traditional" MMO with FF flavor, it makes sense for them to keep "tab" targeting though. The slower combat is vaguely reminiscent of the older FF games, even though there are CDs measured in seconds or minutes. 

 

The "target nearest" function that the X button provides is comfortable, and may be better than having to always aim a reticle, as allgivenover said--even though it can get difficult with many targets. Put simply, I like the combat the way it is, even if soloing at low levels is sometimes a bit simplistic. On the first beta character I made, I had a lot of fun during some of the solo duties.

 

I don't want to have to constantly circle-strafe as I did in Guild Wars 2. Hopefully analog sticks will help.

[Ildur]

Oh, yes. My on-topic opinion. Ahem...

 

I think the combat systems will have no effect at all on roleplayers. This is because most roleplay doesn't happen in combat like situation and, even when it does, the roleplayer will only do so if they actually like the combat or if they can come with an alternative (text based combat with /rolls, for example).

There is one advantage of tab-targetting systems over action-like ones, however: banter! You can't banter in combat if you have to constantly reposition yourself.With tab-targetting, you can sit in a location and shout a battle-taunt while your powers recharge. Or you can use all your 'invulnerability' skills to allow you a few seconds in which to write.

 

Granted, that might not make you the best PvPer, but a roleplayer should have roleplay as the focus during roleplay anyway, not PvP.

[allgivenover]

Wow, yes there is. If there was no difference then explain the vast popularity of proxy services like WTFast and Smoothping. You should try playing Aion PVP at endgame, where in some cases having a ping as high as 120 ms as I do can translate to a huge disadvantage when facing someone with a ping as low as 80 ms due to them living a state or two closer. Some classes are downright impossible to play well if you live too far from Texas, where the servers are located. /cough Assassin.

 

If we had Korea's infrastructure, we would be talking about a difference between 15ms (or less) vs maybe 50 or so. Which is virtually indistinguishable.

 

Once again, yes, better infrastructure will help, but we live in a country that's 100 times the size of South Korea. The low latency there is as much due to the fact that everything is right next to everything else as it is the superior infrastructure.

 

In ARR's case it's going to be a disadvantage to PVP as a west coast player.

[Zyrusticae]

I personally think GW2 had a much better combat system than Tera. It had a nice amount of action with dodging, jumping, etc., and it was not overwhelming with a bizzilion hotkeys to press. If only they had some kind of endgame that existed that was outside of PvP.

Wow, I'm not really sure there's an opinion I could possibly disagree more with than this.

 

In my view Guild Wars 2 is a freakish hybrid between tab-target and a proper-action game that should never have existed, a disgusting Frankenstein of a creation that tries to do everything and fails at everything. They lack the strong tells and intuitive hit detection of proper action games, and they lack the depth of play of trinity-focused tab-targeting MMORPGs, putting it in an awful twilight zone where it just doesn't do anything well.

 

Or at least, that's how I feel about it. Obviously it worked for you, but as far as combat systems go it is VERY high on my list of 'most hated combat systems ever made'. As far as I'm concerned, you either go all the way in one direction, or you go all the way in the other, but you should never just compromise if it means your product becomes an indistinguishable, tasteless mess.

[FreelanceWizard]

To address the OP's question, I think the major effect of the "twitch" MMO on RPers is deemphasizing non-voice communication in combat. This adds the issue of voice chat and its effects on immersion to doing PvE and PvP ICly.

 

In terms of what I think about it as a player? I don't really see TSW or TOR as "twitch" MMOs, frankly. The major issue I have with the Korean MMOs is not their action/twitch gameplay, but their poor game design and emphasis on a pay-to-win or play-to-competently-play cash shop (a design choice adopted by TOR, and a major reason why I stopped playing it). Combine that with the player base issues you typically see when the barrier to entry is removed from an MMO, and you can see why I'm not a fan of these games.

 

At any rate, I still rock in Gradius, Megaman, Mass Effect, Unreal Tournament, and other fast-paced games, so the speed of gameplay doesn't really bother me.

[synaesthetic]

To address the OP's question, I think the major effect of the "twitch" MMO on RPers is deemphasizing non-voice communication in combat. This adds the issue of voice chat and its effects on immersion to doing PvE and PvP ICly.

 

In terms of what I think about it as a player? I don't really see TSW or TOR as "twitch" MMOs, frankly. The major issue I have with the Korean MMOs is not their action/twitch gameplay, but their poor game design and emphasis on a pay-to-win or play-to-competently-play cash shop (a design choice adopted by TOR, and a major reason why I stopped playing it). Combine that with the player base issues you typically see when the barrier to entry is removed from an MMO, and you can see why I'm not a fan of these games.

 

At any rate, I still rock in Gradius, Megaman, Mass Effect, Unreal Tournament, and other fast-paced games, so the speed of gameplay doesn't really bother me.

 

Pretty much this. People have developed some sort of antipathy against active combat due to the horrible games it happens to be attached to. That doesn't mean the combat system itself is inherently bad--I mean, look at Dark Souls or Monster Hunter, which use active combat systems and are absolutely fantastic games.

 

Western developers just seem to be unwilling to use active combat systems due to latency concerns (which can be expensive to address) and the general disinterest much of the MMO playerbase shows in anything that requires genuine skill training and practice over simply out-grinding/overgearing content.

 

As an aside, I actually think Guild Wars 2 has rather fun combat. The problems with it, however, overshadow the fun. GW2 desperately needs the trinity to make it more fun in groups as opposed to mindless zergfests, and it absolutely needs more incentive to level your character. I've been playing GW2 on and off and my elementalist is still level 32 (or 33, something like that) but I don't have much incentive to play.

 

There's little difference between elementalist at level 30 and elementalist at level 80. I don't feel that same "drive" to get to a higher level to use either a nice piece of new gear, or a kickass new skill that will really change up the way I play. It's all very sameish, and gearing/itemization is a very tedious, ho-hum browse-the-AH for stuff with higher numbers than my old stuff experience.

[Asyria]

Active combat... hmm... personally, I liked TERA's fighting but hated everything else about it. On the other hand, I hated Age of Conan's combat system.

So for me it's not about how active it is so much as how well I can handle it. AoC's combo system and directional parries was just over-the-top silly, imho. You'd do a combo, it made you automatically step forward, you ended PAST your target and whoosh! Finishing move strikes the air!

 

At the other end of the spectrum, LOTRO seemed awfully boring combat-wise. It wasn't particularly slow, but definitely not fast... but more importantly, it lacked ANY oomph whatsoever. I want to hit mobs with a gint hammer and feel the impact in my bones! O_O

Okay so I'm exagerating a bit, but you know what I mean, right? When the enemy recoils from the blow and there's a satisfying sound of impact?

That's what matter to me in a MMO.

As a RPer, it helps me immerse myself into the world my character is evolving in.

 

TL;DR: I don't care much if the fighting is twitchy or not, as long as works smoothly. It's the look and feel that matters.

[Raccoon]

I still love twitchy, fast action stuff, though it kills my hands and all if I do too much of it, but that's just me getting all old and stuff. My true hate, which doesn't have much relevance to MMOs just yet (thank [insert deity]), are quick time events. I've given up on plenty of otherwise fun games due to ridiculous split second QTEs, especially some really stupid ones that make you redo whole segments before the QTE, which is sometimes completely randomized. Gah.

 

But, really, I can't imagine the gameplay style having anything to do with RP really. Even when doing in-mission RP, you want to do it between encounters anyway. I find it difficult to organize my thoughts when I'm concentrating on the task at hand.

[LandStander]

I personally think GW2 had a much better combat system than Tera. It had a nice amount of action with dodging, jumping, etc., and it was not overwhelming with a bizzilion hotkeys to press. If only they had some kind of endgame that existed that was outside of PvP.

Wow, I'm not really sure there's an opinion I could possibly disagree more with than this.

 

In my view Guild Wars 2 is a freakish hybrid between tab-target and a proper-action game that should never have existed, a disgusting Frankenstein of a creation that tries to do everything and fails at everything. They lack the strong tells and intuitive hit detection of proper action games, and they lack the depth of play of trinity-focused tab-targeting MMORPGs, putting it in an awful twilight zone where it just doesn't do anything well.

 

Or at least, that's how I feel about it. Obviously it worked for you, but as far as combat systems go it is VERY high on my list of 'most hated combat systems ever made'. As far as I'm concerned, you either go all the way in one direction, or you go all the way in the other, but you should never just compromise if it means your product becomes an indistinguishable, tasteless mess.

 

Somebody really hates GW2 :3.

 

I definitely have tons of complaints about the game and its mechanics, but I think the overall feel of solo combat was pretty refreshing and a nice compromise. Party combat basically didn't exist as it was kind of an every person for his/herself type system with no real roles to play. I don't think I ever experienced any trouble with hit detection and thought the monster tells were perfectly fine. I really don't pay attention to hit detection that much anyway though. It's either I moved or I didn't move out of the way and left it at that, lol. 

 

I think action combat will become more and more prevalent in MMO's as it seems like the industry thinks that is the new "big thing". I think I have always hated Tera because of their absolutely horrid marketing campaign and commercials. I remember logging in during open beta and immediately running into griefers who constructed an impassable wall of giant guys blocking a bridge that you needed to walk by in the start area...I logged out and uninstalled right after that because I had a feeling that their marketing campaign would have just attracted those type of people and I was right. I did start playing during their free to play model, but only got to like 30 or 40's before I got bored with the combat system and the grind (and I generally enjoy grind, like FFXI type grind, but I just couldn't get into this one). 

 

I have honestly been really interested in these MMO's that these small studios and indie developers have been coming up with and hope that it will break the new industry standard of theme-park high stress action MMORPGs.

[Navarre]

I'm actually quite happy with the combat in ARR. I've played GW2, Neverwinter, and Tera and while they were fun in short bursts, I found the combat really didn't jibe for me in the long run. I think it's probably because I always play mage characters and for some reason being a spell caster and running/blinking around just doesn't feel right. I've always pictured spell casting as taking a certain amount of concentration so running in circles as you spam an attack just seems weird to me. Now I know each of the above games are not all chicken-with-head-cut-off bad (I humbly submit Neverwinter as being the worst in that regard), but they all work against the methodical action I associate with magic users.

I know a lot of people hate it, but I really prefer being forced to stand in once place to cast a spell. The methods you develop to work within that limitation appeals to me. 

So all in all, I'm very comfortable with the combat design. Anyway, that's my two cents.

[Ryanti]

I would murder a baby Dove with my bare teeth if I could have a combat system that combines the methodical, timely pace of the more passive, tab-targeting skill-based theme, with the more interactive, precise, dynamic pace we see in action games. (GW2 tried, but did it quite awkwardly.)

 

Being a PvP nut, I would of been a much happier clam if ARR was designed so that I could do things like move out of the way, dodge, jump onto some pillar and jump on it, etc. reminiscent of something like Chilvarly, or Mount and Blade.

 

At the same time, I wouldn't want combat to be twitch, entirely. I'd like for it instead to be soft-lock with pre-rendered animations for the skills.

 

So it would be like a 100mph chess game, people trying to predict other people's techniques and methods in which to flank, surprise, or bewilder opponents by being creative with the abilities you have to offer.

 

I also would like to have active blocking. Rolling as a Paladin, I have a shield.. I'd like to use it. And be rewarded for y'know.. actually using it.

 

I don't really care much about the combat system when it comes to PvE, but in PvP it makes all the difference in the world.

[synaesthetic]

I'm actually quite happy with the combat in ARR. I've played GW2, Neverwinter, and Tera and while they were fun in short bursts, I found the combat really didn't jibe for me in the long run. I think it's probably because I always play mage characters and for some reason being a spell caster and running/blinking around just doesn't feel right. I've always pictured spell casting as taking a certain amount of concentration so running in circles as you spam an attack just seems weird to me. Now I know each of the above games are not all chicken-with-head-cut-off bad (I humbly submit Neverwinter as being the worst in that regard), but they all work against the methodical action I associate with magic users.

I know a lot of people hate it, but I really prefer being forced to stand in once place to cast a spell. The methods you develop to work within that limitation appeals to me. 

So all in all, I'm very comfortable with the combat design. Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

We are completely opposed on this.

 

I always play ranged in these games, usually some type of mage class, and I cannot, cannot, CANNOT STAND being forced to STAND STILL AND MASH BUTTONS.

 

Seriously, I hate it. I hate it so much I almost didn't want to be a mage in ARR. I love, love, love being a sorcerer in TERA. It's so much fun. I love being able to kite so well, and dodge and leap back from attacks. Hell, even WoW and RIFT mages could blink; THM can only do it to a targeted friendly player.

 

I'm going to deal with it, but I'm going to keep TERA installed just for that one thing, until they shut it down completely. Just so I can log in occasionally and play a mage that doesn't stand still and derp while giant monsters punch her.

[Navarre]

 

 

 

I always play ranged in these games, usually some type of mage class, and I cannot, cannot, CANNOT STAND being forced to STAND STILL AND MASH BUTTONS.

 

Seriously, I hate it. I hate it so much I almost didn't want to be a mage in ARR. I love, love, love being a sorcerer in TERA. It's so much fun. I love being able to kite so well, and dodge and leap back from attacks. Hell, even WoW and RIFT mages could blink; THM can only do it to a targeted friendly player.

 

 

And in my head it seems like weaving incantations, and reinforces the trade offs that come with being a magic user. You want to use dangerous words of power to invoke fire and death? Well you can't be bouncing around like a ninja to do it.

 

Again, this is very much a 'no accounting for taste' thing. ARR's mechanics just happen to mix well with my aesthetics. It's really interesting just how much mechanics can affect not only the 'fun' of playing, but your sense of the character itself. I did think Neverwinter's combat was fun, just that it didn't feel right for a mage. When I played a rogue though, it didn't feel all that weird at all.

[synaesthetic]

And in my head it seems like weaving incantations, and reinforces the trade offs that come with being a magic user. You want to use dangerous words of power to invoke fire and death? Well you can't be bouncing around like a ninja to do it.

 

See, this would be awesome--if we got to actively cast the spells. Like, with gestures, touches or movement. If there was some skill aspect to it besides "gear up and mash your rotation over and over again."

 

In TERA I loved the fact that I didn't have a standard rotation, that the spells I cast were strongly dependent on what the mob was doing, what the party was doing, where the mob was, where I was and what wasn't on cooldown at the time.

 

For a game like ARR, the button-pressing just feels so insulated from the action, like I'm controlling a puppet with heavy gloves on.

 

What would be awesome for games with passive combat?

 

Anyone play Magicka?

 

I wish THM played like that. Where you had just the elemental wheel in terms of spells... Fire, Blizzard, Water, Thunder, Aero. Then you cast those spells individually, and they'd do elemental damage to enemies, or charge yourself/your allies with a buff (Fire gives damage, Ice gives armor, Water heals them a bit, Thunder gives attack speed, Aero gives movement speed). But when used in conjunction with each other, then you could combine spell effects to create new spells on the fly.

 

THAT would be damn awesome and I'd gladly give up the twitchy-dodgy nature of TERA-style active combat for a passive tab-target system. Wouldn't it be awesome to cast Aero on a spot, then cast Blizzard on the Aero effect and have it create a blizzard-like effect in that area that snares mobs who move inside it and does damage over time?

 

Mostly my problem with passive target games is it's just not interactive enough for my tastes. It comes down to just learning your rotation and executing it without getting your fingers tangled up. With macros it becomes trivial (just like it did in RIFT for pyromancer). The 2.5s global cooldown is ridiculous because you don't NEED any time to make decisions, because you make them outside of combat when you figure out your rotation. In TERA, though, I had to decide what spell I wanted to use and if I picked the wrong one, it didn't just lower my DPS, but could easily get me killed.

[Navarre]

 

I wish THM played like that. Where you had just the elemental wheel in terms of spells... Fire, Blizzard, Water, Thunder, Aero. Then you cast those spells individually, and they'd do elemental damage to enemies, or charge yourself/your allies with a buff (Fire gives damage, Ice gives armor, Water heals them a bit, Thunder gives attack speed, Aero gives movement speed). But when used in conjunction with each other, then you could combine spell effects to create new spells on the fly.

 

THAT would be damn awesome and I'd gladly give up the twitchy-dodgy nature of TERA-style active combat for a passive tab-target system. Wouldn't it be awesome to cast Aero on a spot, then cast Blizzard on the Aero effect and have it create a blizzard-like effect in that area that snares mobs who move inside it and does damage over time?

 

 

That's a brilliant idea. I really like the possibility of mixing and matching spell effects like that. Though I understand SE would be shy at first of messing with iconic stand alone spells.

 

Part of the fun I had in WoW with my warlock was finding the best spells to handle a given encounter. I'm mostly talking about solo stuff which was my bread and butter. Rotations I left for boss fights: the only place they actually matter anyway. Mixing and matching spells and tactics was always fun. One of my favorite memories was picking my way through the gnoll camps in Elwynn forest (during TBC) and having to set up each and every mob pull. Can't just send in the voidwalker/imp cause he'd attract a bunch of them. Cast a curse, let the gnoll run to you, sic the voidy on him. Don't spam because he might attack you. Make sure you're standing int the right place otherwise an unseen gnoll would start stabbing you. Slow, methodical preplanning for each encounter. Of course things went awry and a whole camp descended on me. The passive targeting and 'button pushing' always felt interactive to me and seemed more like how a magic user would approach an encounter. That you have to know what you're doing ahead of time otherwise you're screwed. Though I can complete understand how it can be uninteresting for others. As some one else posted above, I think my years of playing turn-based rpgs affected my tastes.

 

Still, your idea about creative mixing of spells could really add a lot of dynamism to the game.