Eorzean Seniors

[LiadansWhisper]

I was directing most of that combat business to the comments about Saurfang, Gandalf, etc. and where they might be. Namely, who knows? Gandalf was a wizard in the LotR universe but he also pretty much when toe to toe with the Balrog and Saurfang was an Orc. ...I mean... Broxxigar was an Orc, and Saurfang and Brox are about on par in my eyes. I mean to say that if there are a lot of senior citizens doing back flips and punching beasts in the face it might not go over that well. I wish, primarily, that we had something like an average lifespan for races at the very least. Except for Hyur we can really only guess at lifespans which in turn means guessing at maturity and seniority.

 

I won't argue that they all have to be old and wise, they could be as immature, xenophobic, and unworldly as they might be in any other fantasy setting-- But I will say that it seems unlikely that too many of them are still active soldiers or pit fighters-- I guess mage-related things -seems- like it would fit better simply because I've been conditioned by NPCs and characters of other worlds that magic, like firearms and death, are the great equalizer.

 

Basically, part of being "old" normally comes with a gradual decline in your physical capabilities.  An older person is going to, in general, have more difficulty with physical activities as compared to a younger person in the same sort of physical shape.

 

In extremely long-lived races, I'm not even sure calling someone who has lived for 100 years "old" would be accurate if their race lives, to say, 300 years.  They might just be hitting middle-age, or their prime.

 

Do we even have concrete lifespans for each race?

[Ildur]

I'm going to paraphrase something someone else in the forums said once: Remember that Player Characters are a subset of remarkable characters, who are a subset of all perceivable characters in the world, who are in turn a subset of all people living in Eorzea.

So while it might be true that most of the old people in Eorzea aren't combat capable, it doesn't need to hold true to most of the Player Characters. Unless a player decides to purposedly play an unremarkable character (it happens), there's no lore reason to not have an old badass. In fact, there are plenty of lore reasons to do so: namely, aether. Except for those who have low aether naturally, everyone is able to use magic to some extent. That's why every class and job has a special and flashy effects, and that's the only way you can justify someone being able to punch Titan in the knees and cause damage. If everyone can use aether to enhance their capabilites beyond the norm, then it is very likely that the aged people of Eorzea would be able of many feats as long as they had the training during their youth or as long as they keep fit.

 

For example, the leader of the Ala Mhigan refugees in Little Ala Mhigo is an old grizzled man. He wears an axe and he accompanies you in one particular quest to fight some enemies. He is not tired, winded nor wounded afterwards.

 

What is true is that they probably will not be as effective as someone with the same ammount of experience who is also younger. But that's getting into technical disadvantages: the oldies can fight too, and the game supports that idea.

[Salty Lake]

Here are two screencaps I took today that support my hypothesis that there are high-mortality rates for commoners (very light spoilers):

 

Aside from the death during childbirth and the understandable infant mortality rates (considering it doesn't look like Eorzea has things like NICU, and there are a lot of things that can go wrong during pregnancy), honestly I think the greatest danger comes from being a mercenary or part of the military (or being an adventurer!). The thing with the 27 laborers killed by the coeurl seems like a fairly "freak accident", so to speak - you don't get powerful beasts like that every day. Keep in mind also that things might be more dangerous now than they were prior to the Calamity. We've got all that aether disrupting things and the elementals are peeved and things are just generally going very, very wrong in the world. This makes everything far riskier than it may have been 6 years ago, and it's possible that a lot of the problems we see NPCs running into while questing would not have been nearly as common back then.

 

Alrighty! Show me some screencaps suggesting that folks have long, healthy lives and I'll concede. I personally think freak monster attacks are the new normal, as there are plenty of Fates right outside of the cities. For the mean time, I'll assume life is hard and short for many people, based on the NPC whose wife died giving birth and daughter/grandchildren died of illness.

 

Re: the feudalism. I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them. That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped. Not feudalism?

[LiadansWhisper]

Here are two screencaps I took today that support my hypothesis that there are high-mortality rates for commoners (very light spoilers):

 

Aside from the death during childbirth and the understandable infant mortality rates (considering it doesn't look like Eorzea has things like NICU, and there are a lot of things that can go wrong during pregnancy), honestly I think the greatest danger comes from being a mercenary or part of the military (or being an adventurer!). The thing with the 27 laborers killed by the coeurl seems like a fairly "freak accident", so to speak - you don't get powerful beasts like that every day. Keep in mind also that things might be more dangerous now than they were prior to the Calamity. We've got all that aether disrupting things and the elementals are peeved and things are just generally going very, very wrong in the world. This makes everything far riskier than it may have been 6 years ago, and it's possible that a lot of the problems we see NPCs running into while questing would not have been nearly as common back then.

 

Alrighty!  Show me some screencaps suggesting that folks have long, healthy lives and I'll concede.  I personally think freak monster attacks are the new normal, as there are plenty of Fates right outside of the cities.  For the mean time, I'll assume life is hard and short for many people, based on the NPC whose wife died giving birth and daughter/grandchildren died of illness.

 

Re: the feudalism.  I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them.  That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped.  Not feudalism?

 

Coerthas appears to be feudalistic from everything I saw from NPCs and quest texts.  Especially as you follow the main storyline through the zone, it becomes very, very clear.

[Naunet]

Re: the feudalism.  I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them.  That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped.  Not feudalism?

 

In Coerthas, not all of Eorzea. Which would actually be a good reason for the high infant mortality observed in Coerthas NPCs, as the feudal society would likely leave most significant health care out of reach of anyone not born into the right family. It's entirely possible that lower class Ishgardians (or even just those born into the outer branches of a family) are significantly worse off than "lower class" Gridanians or Limsans or whathaveyou because of this. Ul'dah has a pretty socially stratified structure, with a large proportion of the wealth in the hands of a very few (heh, not at all unlike current real life situations), but that's different from feudalism and I'd be willing to bet a lot of the city's poverty is due to the influx of refugees. No clue what this means for groups who live outside of the main societal hubs in Thanalan, such as Seeker tribes. We know that one branch of the U tribe at least was looking for a way to revitalize their little settlement by opening up better trade lines to Ul'dah and such and allowing non-tribe merchants space in their town.

[YesGood]

I was directing most of that combat business to the comments about Saurfang, Gandalf, etc. and where they might be. Namely, who knows? Gandalf was a wizard in the LotR universe but he also pretty much when toe to toe with the Balrog and Saurfang was an Orc. ...I mean... Broxxigar was an Orc, and Saurfang and Brox are about on par in my eyes. I mean to say that if there are a lot of senior citizens doing back flips and punching beasts in the face it might not go over that well. I wish, primarily, that we had something like an average lifespan for races at the very least. Except for Hyur we can really only guess at lifespans which in turn means guessing at maturity and seniority.

 

I won't argue that they all have to be old and wise, they could be as immature, xenophobic, and unworldly as they might be in any other fantasy setting-- But I will say that it seems unlikely that too many of them are still active soldiers or pit fighters-- I guess mage-related things -seems- like it would fit better simply because I've been conditioned by NPCs and characters of other worlds that magic, like firearms and death, are the great equalizer.

 

Basically, part of being "old" normally comes with a gradual decline in your physical capabilities.  An older person is going to, in general, have more difficulty with physical activities as compared to a younger person in the same sort of physical shape.

 

In extremely long-lived races, I'm not even sure calling someone who has lived for 100 years "old" would be accurate if their race lives, to say, 300 years.  They might just be hitting middle-age, or their prime.

 

Do we even have concrete lifespans for each race?

 

I'm not sure. Last I saw we were still making some vague guesses at what races might live longer than other races. I mean, in the case of Elves many times they mature gods-know-when but they are still in pretty peak physical shape until they are nearly on their death bed. The usual explanation? Magic. That might apply to some races in Eorzea as well.

 

The thing, and I'll accept senior citizen superhero types regardless, but if the general mentality is going to be 'No, we will not accept your outstanding teenagers with their l33t skillz and some such' then should that mentality -not- apply to Eorzea's old folk? If our excuses are based off of our perception of teenagers, that they're too young and immature or what not to have worldly knowledge and elite combat prowess, isn't it safe to assume that there are likely as many if not more older individuals who suffer that same problem; taking the world as we know it as our example in both cases?

 

I don't want to see a bunch of people jumping on a bandwagon because they think that the people here will think it's the coolest thing since sliced bread only to find out in a week or two that suddenly all of those advocates despise the idea because 'too many people are doing it'. It's an epidemic, so I think it's fair to bring attention to the chances and considerations put into playing older characters rather than having people do them because they feel they'll be filling a niche that they -might- regret later.

[John Spiegel]

I'm going to paraphrase something someone else in the forums said once: Remember that Player Characters are a subset of remarkable characters, who are a subset of all perceivable characters in the world, who are in turn a subset of all people living in Eorzea.

So while it might be true that most of the old people in Eorzea aren't combat capable, it doesn't need to hold true to most of the Player Characters. Unless a player decides to purposedly play an unremarkable character (it happens), there's no lore reason to not have an old badass. In fact, there are plenty of lore reasons to do so: namely, aether. Except for those who have low aether naturally, everyone is able to use magic to some extent. That's why every class and job has a special and flashy effects, and that's the only way you can justify someone being able to punch Titan in the knees and cause damage. If everyone can use aether to enhance their capabilites beyond the norm, then it is very likely that the aged people of Eorzea would be able of many feats as long as they had the training during their youth or as long as they keep fit.

 

For example, the leader of the Ala Mhigan refugees in Little Ala Mhigo is an old grizzled man. He wears an axe and he accompanies you in one particular quest to fight some enemies. He is not tired, winded nor wounded afterwards.

 

What is true is that they probably will not be as effective as someone with the same ammount of experience who is also younger. But that's getting into technical disadvantages: the oldies can fight too, and the game supports that idea.

 

That's pretty much my reason to have JJ still kicking ass: Aether (and being too damn stubborn and not returning death's calls because death is a needy jerkface) Some characters have naturally high capabilities with such as you said (magic, kicking Ifrit in the junk, and magic again).

 

I do know of some PCs that are older and not as spry as their younger self, but would be capable of getting the slip on someone. Then there's others I know that have long since retired. Having aged "badasses" is just another category of old! (And I just really, really, really enjoy JJ >.>)

 

You also see the same gambit in younglings, those that suck at everything, those that do nothing, those that don't suck at one thing and those that don't suck at something else.

[LiadansWhisper]

Re: the feudalism.  I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them.  That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped.  Not feudalism?

 

In Coerthas, not all of Eorzea. Which would actually be a good reason for the high infant mortality observed in Coerthas NPCs, as the feudal society would likely leave most significant health care out of reach of anyone not born into the right family. It's entirely possible that lower class Ishgardians (or even just those born into the outer branches of a family) are significantly worse off than "lower class" Gridanians or Limsans or whathaveyou because of this. Ul'dah has a pretty socially stratified structure, with a large proportion of the wealth in the hands of a very few (heh, not at all unlike current real life situations), but that's different from feudalism and I'd be willing to bet a lot of the city's poverty is due to the influx of refugees. No clue what this means for groups who live outside of the main societal hubs in Thanalan, such as Seeker tribes. We know that one branch of the U tribe at least was looking for a way to revitalize their little settlement by opening up better trade lines to Ul'dah and such and allowing non-tribe merchants space in their town.

 

The NPC in question is a minor noble, so he should have had access to good healthcare, especially considering the quests covering escorting "Phurgions" (sp?) between strongholds.

[Naunet]

The NPC in question is a minor noble, so he should have had access to good healthcare, especially considering the quests covering escorting "Phurgions" (sp?) between strongholds.

 

A "minor noble" can mean a lot less than one may think. Many nobles lived just over the edge of poverty, their holding of land basically being the only thing securing their "status", and often you had minor nobles essentially demoting themselves to peasants when they realized they could not keep up with the financial demands of nobility.

 

Feudalism, nobility, and the noble life are not nearly as shiny as a lot of people often assume, and there is generally definite, severe sub-stratification within nobility that leaves some nobles with a lot and many with just barely enough.

 

[edit] Incidentally, we have not run into any NPCs from Ishgard who isn't nobility - again, bearing in mind the fact that nobility itself can have many different levels. I might be wrong, but if I'm recalling correctly (and nobility and feudalism are incredibly complex topics), simply becoming a knight tends to automatically grant you "noble" status - but you never actually get a lot of the perks that comes with being A Noble. You just get the name. So a lot of these "minor" nobles, soldiers, might very well be extremely "low class" in this context.

[Salty Lake]

In the historic fiction I've read, there is a high infant mortality rate and high mortality rate in general for nobles under feudalism. Probably live longer than the peasants, but the fiction I've read regrettably doesn't detail much of peasant life.

[LiadansWhisper]

The NPC in question is a minor noble, so he should have had access to good healthcare, especially considering the quests covering escorting "Phurgions" (sp?) between strongholds.

 

A "minor noble" can mean a lot less than one may think. Many nobles lived just over the edge of poverty, their holding of land basically being the only thing securing their "status", and often you had minor nobles essentially demoting themselves to peasants when they realized they could not keep up with the financial demands of nobility.

 

Feudalism, nobility, and the noble life are not nearly as shiny as a lot of people often assume, and there is generally definite, severe sub-stratification within nobility that leaves some nobles with a lot and many with just barely enough.

 

[edit] Incidentally, we have not run into any NPCs from Ishgard who isn't nobility - again, bearing in mind the fact that nobility itself can have many different levels. I might be wrong, but if I'm recalling correctly (and nobility and feudalism are incredibly complex topics), simply becoming a knight tends to automatically grant you "noble" status - but you never actually get a lot of the perks that comes with being A Noble. You just get the name. So a lot of these "minor" nobles, soldiers, might very well be extremely "low class" in this context.

 

But they're all sworn, and their liegelords, as part and parcel of their oath, should be taking care of them.

 

Honestly, as Salty pointed out, high infant mortality rates and high mortality in general was just as much a problem for the nobility during the feudal eras as it was for the peasantry.  Epidemics like the Bubonic Plague didn't discriminate and would infect people in a seemingly random fashion.

 

I just really don't see any indication that most or all of Eorzea is at the industrial age.  There's no sign of it.  Yeah, there are mining operations and a few oil derricks out in Thalnalan, but neither of those are "industrialized."  Where are the factories?  Where are the refineries?  Seriously.

 

Magic might fix it, but the last time I was at the Conjurer's Guild in Gridania, I noticed a conversation between NPCs where a Conjurer was refusing to aid petitioners, and from the gist of the conversation, it appeared to be someone who was sick.  He said, "It's the will of the forest."

[Naunet]

But they're all sworn, and their liegelords, as part and parcel of their oath, should be taking care of them.

 

Should and do are completely different things. There are a lot of things our current "rulers" should be doing for those they "rule" but aren't as well. This is the same society that is obsessed with rooting out and eliminating heretics and tosses innocent people to their deaths to... prove their innocence. I highly doubt those living potentially comfier lives do a whole awful lot to help out those lesser nobles and might even see them as a threat, depending on how Ishgardian social structures work. Which, we don't know how they work so it's impossible to say any which way.

 

There are refineries for those natural resources Eorzeans harvest - it comes part and parcel with the mines and the oil fields and whatever else. Ceruleum is one resource in particular that gets a lot of attention in lore.

 

And look, it's not like I'm saying Eorzeans live nice and shiny lives. In fact, I think I've been saying quite the opposite. However, I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say late 20s/early 30s qualifies as old when we've seen quite a few clearly aged individuals in-game (particularly individuals who tend not to be involved in the obviously deadly activities of adventuring or the military, such as caretakers or cooks or other such things).

[Twinflame]

I just really don't see any indication that most or all of Eorzea is at the industrial age.  There's no sign of it.  Yeah, there are mining operations and a few oil derricks out in Thalnalan, but neither of those are "industrialized."  Where are the factories?  Where are the refineries?  Seriously.

 

Ah, then you're speaking to me, since I think I was the person who said that. I meant to describe the technology level as being relative to an industrialized society. Obviously Eorzea's infrastructure is not industrialized, and a large part of my argument was that Eorzea does not have such qualities. If there are no factories or refineries, they wouldn't have the negatives that come with them.

 

Stripped of all context, Industrialized is not an adjective that describes Eorzea. You're correct in that.

 

Re. the NPC in Ishgard: he is a soldier and a member of a line of soldiers that are waging a war that has spanned multiple generations. The fact that he's seen a lot of death is part of that, and while it may be true that he is a minor noble, we don't know enough about Ishgard to know what that means about his place in society. Feudal societies varied wildly in the placement of their soldiers, knights, lords, and crusaders specifically. Just saying that he's a noble in a feudal system doesn't tell us very much.

 

At any rate, Ishgard is a special case. They've suffered massive ecological devastation on a scale that makes the other nations look like they're playing the game on Easy Mode, on top of generational war and self-destructive religious purging. If you calculate life expectancy for Ishgard, you're going to get a very, very bleak number, very much worse than that of other nations.

 

That combined with the isolationist nature of Isgard would lead me to move that they not be included in the discussion. How many people are RPing Ishgardians anyway?

 

Also, I think we're drifting a bit from the OP. And by a bit I mean the OP is just chilling in the forum and we're in Alpha Centauri and don't know how we got here.

 

Did you ever make any RP connections, OP? I'm sure a rich older lady could have some dealings with the CRA, if you would like.

[LiadansWhisper]

But they're all sworn, and their liegelords, as part and parcel of their oath, should be taking care of them.

 

Should and do are completely different things. There are a lot of things our current "rulers" should be doing for those they "rule" but aren't as well. This is the same society that is obsessed with rooting out and eliminating heretics and tosses innocent people to their deaths to... prove their innocence. I highly doubt those living potentially comfier lives do a whole awful lot to help out those lesser nobles and might even see them as a threat, depending on how Ishgardian social structures work. Which, we don't know how they work so it's impossible to say any which way.

 

There are refineries for those natural resources Eorzeans harvest - it comes part and parcel with the mines and the oil fields and whatever else. Ceruleum is one resource in particular that gets a lot of attention in lore.

 

And look, it's not like I'm saying Eorzeans live nice and shiny lives. In fact, I think I've been saying quite the opposite. However, I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say late 20s/early 30s qualifies as old when we've seen quite a few clearly aged individuals in-game (particularly individuals who tend not to be involved in the obviously deadly activities of adventuring or the military, such as caretakers or cooks or other such things).

 

Other than the one Ceruleum refinery (and honestly, it's not much more than 3 or 4 buildings around a central Aetheryte, there's no evidence of large-scale industrial production there unless I completely missed it) and the "Garlond Ironworks" (which we never actually see in game, but is mentioned in quest text), there doesn't appear to be anything.  No factories.  No sweatshops, even!  Weavers are still using hand-cranked spinning wheels!    No automated vehicles other than what the Garleans have - and they are very much industrialized, but that's the whole juxtaposition of the game.  Eorzea (a more agrarian society) vs. Garlemand (a hyper-industrialized society).  

 

The biggest indication that it's not industrialized?  Everything is handmade.  Everything.  That's the biggest indication that it's not industrialized.

 

I agree that 20-30 isn't "old," however.  Even if Eorzea isn't industrialized, they have freaking magic!  And are composed of several magical races.  So it's difficult for me to believe 30 would be "old" to them.

 

Edit: @Twin: Yes, but but...there are no Mind Worms here. o_O I actually don't remember who started the convo, but I will let it die. :-\ Sorry for the tangent!

[LandStander]

Here are two screencaps I took today that support my hypothesis that there are high-mortality rates for commoners (very light spoilers):

 

Aside from the death during childbirth and the understandable infant mortality rates (considering it doesn't look like Eorzea has things like NICU, and there are a lot of things that can go wrong during pregnancy), honestly I think the greatest danger comes from being a mercenary or part of the military (or being an adventurer!). The thing with the 27 laborers killed by the coeurl seems like a fairly "freak accident", so to speak - you don't get powerful beasts like that every day. Keep in mind also that things might be more dangerous now than they were prior to the Calamity. We've got all that aether disrupting things and the elementals are peeved and things are just generally going very, very wrong in the world. This makes everything far riskier than it may have been 6 years ago, and it's possible that a lot of the problems we see NPCs running into while questing would not have been nearly as common back then.

 

Alrighty!  Show me some screencaps suggesting that folks have long, healthy lives and I'll concede.  I personally think freak monster attacks are the new normal, as there are plenty of Fates right outside of the cities.  For the mean time, I'll assume life is hard and short for many people, based on the NPC whose wife died giving birth and daughter/grandchildren died of illness.

 

Re: the feudalism.  I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them.  That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped.  Not feudalism?

I agree with you about the monster attacks being a bit more "normal" It was revealed in 1.0 that as Dalamud grew closer and closer to the ground it drove the animals more wild which made them more dangerous. You can even see in FATEs; I think the one in Camp Overlook has a bunch of sandworms who have "evolved" and developed a hive mind, giving them the ability to think as a unit and storm the camp at once. There is another one (and many more) out in LL that suggest that the Chupacabra (wolf NM) has been terrorizing locals and eating them. Or right outside of Ul'dah there is the toad NM that captures it's victims and drowns them, not for food, but just because it is freaking insane lol. Or the demon lady who finds women and rips their faces off!

 

Anyway, what I think I am trying to get at is that it would suck a lot to live anywhere outside of the city walls. Probably which is why there are not really any homes out there (every one I have come across has been dilapidated and abandoned) and mostly just military encampments or strongholds. Before the descent of Dalamud things did seem to be relatively more calm though.

[Naunet]

I agree with you about the monster attacks being a bit more "normal" It was revealed in 1.0 that as Dalamud grew closer and closer to the ground it drove the animals more wild which made them more dangerous. You can even see in FATEs; I think the one in Camp Overlook has a bunch of sandworms who have "evolved" and developed a hive mind, giving them the ability to think as a unit and storm the camp at once. There is another one (and many more) out in LL that suggest that the Chupacabra (wolf NM) has been terrorizing locals and eating them. Or right outside of Ul'dah there is the toad NM that captures it's victims and drowns them, not for food, but just because it is freaking insane lol. Or the demon lady who finds women and rips their faces off!

 

Anyway, what I think I am trying to get at is that it would suck a lot to live anywhere outside of the city walls. Probably which is why there are not really any homes out there (every one I have come across has been dilapidated and abandoned) and mostly just military encampments or strongholds. Before the descent of Dalamud things did seem to be relatively more calm though.

 

I just wanted to point out that this is exactly what I was saying. >_>; Not sure why Salty seemed to think otherwise.