Lore Gathering: Miqo’te Society

[Norna]

Yes, I know that there have been several threads devoted to Miqo'te lore, but I wanted a thread devoted solely to canon information.

 

[align=center]Lore Gathering: Miqo’te Society[/align]

 

Sun Seekers

We already know their naming lore, so I wont go into that. We know that they worship Azeyma, the Sun and Warden, sister of Menphina. They’re patriarchal in nature (U-tribe is patriarchal), usually each tribe will have a single Nunh, while there are a few Tia around.

 

From what I can gather (mostly from Forgotten Springs), a Tia can only challenge a Nunh after they’ve defeated the other Tias of the tribe (this protects the Nunh from being chain-challenged and succumbing to exhaustion rather than a superior opponent). While they obviously value physical virtues (at least one tribe has a rite of age that includes hunting particular beasts), they also seem to put high value on mental virtues as well (several Sun Seekers, no matter if they’re tribal or not, alludes to this), such as wisdom, wit, smarts, experience and so on.

 

Moon Keepers

Again. Naming is known. They worship Menphina, the Lover and Moon. They’re matriarchal in nature, and their surnames are really old.

 

What is mostly known about them is that there are many Moon Keeping poachers. I’m going out on a limb and say that hunting is as big a thing for the Moon Keepers as it is for the Sun Seekers (both tribes, after all, crossed the ice by following prey). They seem to value loyalty, but as I haven’t met many of them who don’t want to kill me on sight, that’s all I can say.

 

I don’t know whether or not having watched Menphina’s hound be destroyed changed their way of life.

 

Moon/Sun Mix

Not as rare in NPC population as you might think. In the city-states, the most obvious one is A’brohka of the Sanguine Sirens in Limsa Lominsa, and the most famous one is F’lhaminn (missing since the Calamity), the Songstress of Ul’dah.

 

It should be noted that A’brohka is in a female pirate crew, which is similar enough to Moon Keeping culture as we know it, while F’lhaminn followed a more traditional Sun Seeking path, so they seem to go however they want.

 

 

And that’s what I’ve been able to confirm through the game so far. Anyone who’ve stumbled across any other nuggets of information?

[Gone4everbye]

Ah yes, let's see if I can find it. There were these nuggets of Keeper lore that Rakka'li found. Keepers are so ridiculously rare among NPC populations that it's hard to gather lore on them.

 

 

[Norna]

Thanks! So it seems like even though a large number of poachers are Moon Keepers, they are also the (accidental) targets of them as well.

 

Additionally: "The paint we use is taken from the inedible berries of an herb known as 'soldier's sore' [...]"

 

Um... I wonder if the name is in any way connected to its use? Inedible means many things and I wonder if it's possible that the berries' juices might be corrosive/drying to skin if in frequent use (hence, only soldiers get them).

 

And it seems like Sun Seekers have tribes while Moon Keepers have clans.

[Naunet]

They’re patriarchal in nature, usually each tribe will follow a single Nunh, while there are a few Tia around.

 

 

I'd like to point out, as per the naming convention page on the lore forums:

 

"Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

 

It's annoyingly silly that Squee contradicts itself by turning that around completely with the one actual Seeker tribe portrayed in the game. I half expect they just couldn't stand the thought of men not having much say in their family and so went with "Nunh leads the U tribe" regardless of their own established lore.

 

But yea, based off what we're given by Squeenix, I wouldn't say Seeker culture is patriarchal. Nunhs are certainly important due to the simple fact that they're responsible for continuing the tribe, but that doesn't mean they control their family units.

[Norna]

They’re patriarchal in nature, usually each tribe will follow a single Nunh, while there are a few Tia around.

 

 

I'd like to point out, as per the naming convention page on the lore forums:

 

"Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

 

It's annoyingly silly that Squee contradicts itself by turning that around completely with the one actual Seeker tribe portrayed in the game. I half expect they just couldn't stand the thought of men not having much say in their family and so went with "Nunh leads the U tribe" regardless of their own established lore.

 

But yea, based off what we're given by Squeenix, I wouldn't say Seeker culture is patriarchal. Nunhs are certainly important due to the simple fact that they're responsible for continuing the tribe, but that doesn't mean they control their family units.

 

Maybe the Nunh of the U tribe is one of the few good enough to become a leader (the guard? outside his house waxes poetical about his mental prowess)?

 

I'd say that maybe Sun Seeking tribal culture could be considered patriarchal, so to speak, because it is built around nunhs, whether they're leaders or not (both in procreation, and that their daughters take their father's name), and because a Tia can found a new tribe if he can convince women to join him.

 

Just as how Moon Keepers are matriarchal because the mother's name is inherited by her children.

[Naunet]

Just as how Moon Keepers are matriarchal because the mother's name is inherited by her children.

 

I disagree with the premise that the passing of a family name defines whether a culture is matriarchal or patriarchal. It's got more to do with the power of a gender within the society and who is looked to when making important decisions.

[Ildur]

The fact Sunseeker women take the name of the father has little to do with patriarchal power and more with easy information. Since a tribe's territory is (traditionally) related to the local Nunh, other tribe members could identify where a Miqo'te woman comes from by knowing her father. "Oh, so you're one of Borlen's daughters. How are things on the other side of the river?"

A patriarchal society would have the fathers be important in society or family by giving them authority. The only thing the nunh have is a right to have children because they are the bravest/best. That's not leadership. It's eugenetics.

 

Then again, it's likely Squee just made up a bunch of arbitrary things to cater to the 'OMG harem catgirl society!' factor and then forgot to follow up on it beyond that (as evidenced by the U tribe).

[Norna]

Just as how Moon Keepers are matriarchal because the mother's name is inherited by her children.

 

I disagree with the premise that the passing of a family name defines whether a culture is matriarchal or patriarchal. It's got more to do with the power of a gender within the society and who is looked to when making important decisions.

I know that's how it works in our world, but it seems like Miqo'te put a HUGE amount of history/importance in their names, and according to S-E Moon Keepers are "highly matriarchal", so while Sun Seeking males might not necessarily be leaders, their society is built around them, and while Moon Keepers are solitary, their society highly values the old names passed down from their mothers.

 

Erm, what I'm trying to say is that the naming itself isn't the origin of the societal structures, it's just a symptom as to whom importance is attached; father in the case of Sun Seekers, and mother in the case of Moon Keepers.

 

And in-game, it is clear that the Forgotten Springs U tribe's Nunh is a leader and makes important decisions and is looked up to. Same with the two Tia who vie to become Nunhs themselves (they are looked up to as teachers). And S-E already says that Moon Keepers are matriarchal, so it seems to me like they're supposed to mirror one another with one being patriarchal and the other matriarchal.

 

TL;DR: The passing of names are a symptom as to whom the society favors/is structured around. Not the cause itself. Also, S-E contradicts themselves.

 

Then again' date=' it's likely Squee just made up a bunch of arbitrary things to cater to the '[i']OMG harem catgirl society![/i]' factor and then forgot to follow up on it beyond that (as evidenced by the U tribe).

 

I can see that. Sun = Submissive catgirl harem. Moon = Cat-dominatrices/forbidden wild nymphs of the forest that are sexually frustrated due to lack of men. Or Sun = Harem Anime and Moon = Amazons/Drows. And then S-E realized the Unfortunate Implications and applied a few band-aids.

[shotgunbadger]

There is a power imbalance, I don't think anyone is saying Seekers are egalitarian in that regard, but 'patriarchal' has a pretty set meaning. Breeding males have main rights to the kids, and that is power, but they don't have power over all, just their own kids. A Nunh has no real authority beyond what is given to him, there's no tribal law that says he has any power over his kids or women he mates with, if a Nunh does something out of line nothing stops a female Seeker from going 'uh no, that's not cool', the children are raised (seemingly) by the tribe as a whole not just by their father. Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

[Norna]

Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

Isn't this a contradiction?

 

I mean, I get that in a society of 10-50♀/1♂ ratio that there is no way that all the decision and influence will reside with the male gender, but if there is inherent influences in being male (creation a new tribe/family/leader like the U tribe/teacher and authority/passing one's name), as well having the entire society shaped around "patriarchs" (a Nunh by any other name...), couldn't they be considered Eorzea's equivalent of patriarchy? (And not the more familiar patriarchy of our world. I'm arguing from a Watsonian rather than Doylist point of view here.)

[Lament]

Minor thing, but the Miqo'te reporter NPC for parts 3 and 4 of the Lightning event, Kipih Jakkya, has a name that follows Keeper conventions and is very obviously a Seeker in appearance (you can see the slitted pupils clearly in part 3's turn-in cutscene).

[Norna]

Minor thing, but the Miqo'te reporter NPC for parts 3 and 4 of the Lightning event, Kipih Jakkya, has a name that follows Keeper conventions and is very obviously a Seeker in appearance (you can see the slitted pupils clearly in part 3's turn-in cutscene).

Good catch! Seems like Sun/Moon Miqo'tes are even more common than I thought.

[shotgunbadger]

Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

Isn't this a contradiction?

 

I mean, I get that in a society of 10-50♀/1♂ ratio that there is no way that all the decision and influence will reside with the male gender, but if there is inherent influences in being male (creation a new tribe/family/leader like the U tribe/teacher and authority/passing one's name), as well having the entire society shaped around "patriarchs" (a Nunh by any other name...), couldn't they be considered Eorzea's equivalent of patriarchy? (And not the more familiar patriarchy of our world. I'm arguing from a Watsonian rather than Doylist point of view here.)

 

A Nunh who proves worthy of respect can easily get it, but they don't respect him because he's a Nunh, they respect him for, say, hunting a major animal or something. Nunh have influence just by being breeding males, but there's not a ton they can DO with it. Like, they can say 'hey lady we're gonna bone down' and that's about it. Actual power comes from hunts and battle and all, and a tia or a female is just as allowed to participate in those. Simply due to the process of becoming a Nunh there's most likely good odds the dude breeding is also a good hunter or fighter, but it's a personal achievement rather than one of rank.

[LiadansWhisper]

Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

Isn't this a contradiction?

 

No.  Because influence doesn't necessarily equate to control.  They are not the same thing.

[Naunet]

Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

Isn't this a contradiction?

 

I mean, I get that in a society of 10-50♀/1♂ ratio that there is no way that all the decision and influence will reside with the male gender, but if there is inherent influences in being male (creation a new tribe/family/leader like the U tribe/teacher and authority/passing one's name), as well having the entire society shaped around "patriarchs" (a Nunh by any other name...), couldn't they be considered Eorzea's equivalent of patriarchy? (And not the more familiar patriarchy of our world. I'm arguing from a Watsonian rather than Doylist point of view here.)

 

Again: "Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

 

This does not suggest that being a nunh comes with any innate influence beyond the fact that he gets to be the father of all the kids. It's unfortunate that the U tribe in-game completely contradicts Squeenix's own statement on Seeker lore, but we have to assume that the U tribe is one of those outlier tribes.

[Norna]

Alright, I've edited the post to reflect that only the U-tribe is known to be patriarchal.

[Ildur]

Kipih Jakkya might just be missing the tribe letter. Or Squee flucked on their own lore. Again. I remember they had an NPC back in the day that also had the same "Looks like a Seeker, is named like a Keeper" problem and they solved it by claiming she was a half-breed or something.

 

Also, the only think in Sunseeker society shaped by the nunh is the last name for females and the adquisition of territory to the tribe. There's nothing implying that the nunh takes ownership of it for himself, or that he has more authority than the females who go with him. The only way you could apply patriarchy to their society as described by the lore, is to put too much importance on the breeding aspect of the nunh. Which is, really, the only aspect they have. That's all they do: have children. Any other type of authority is a coincidence.

The U tribe should be seen as the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself (which I know is problematic because there are no other tribes despicted in game). Again, I'm sure Squeenix just flopped on their own lore, but we have to work around their sillyness and the way to do that is to consider the U tribe an anomaly.

Or, I guess you could consider anything that isn't in the game as the anomaly. I guess that depends on where you think the Authorial Intent is.

 

EDIT: Woops! And this is what happens when you take too long on a post, folks. You miss on the post that was posted one minute before yours.

Still, leaving everything there just to state why I don't think the U tribe should be used as the go-to of Seeker culture.

[C'kayah Polaali]

usually each tribe will have a single Nunh, while there are a few Tia around.

 

 

I think it's been pretty well established that a Seeker tribe is made up of numerous breeding groups. A single Nunh per tribe would imply that there were, at most, only a few thousand Seekers in Eorzea.

 

 

As far as the Seeker/Keeper mix goes, you could also argue that Kipih Jakkya's presence supports the idea of this pairing being rare (and possibly troublesome) for tribal Miqo'te. Kipah, after all, is an "urbanized" (as opposed to tribal) Miqo'te.

 

 

I've been thinking about a couple of things with regard to Seeker breeding. We know that a Tia can become a Nunh by challenging an existing Nunh, proving himself fitter, and taking that Nunh's place. It's assumed that combat plays a part of this challenge, but is it there anything else? This depends really on what a tribe would consider to be proof of fitness. And how much does female choice come into play? Is an ability to convince the females of a breeding group that you're a better choice part of the challenge? I don't like to compare Miqo'te to lions (ears and tails aside, they're obviously very close to the other sophonts of Eorzea. Much closer than to any sort of cat), but there have been recorded instances of the females of prides killing a dominant male who proves to be a liability. This shows that there's at least some need for a dominant lion to convince the females that he's the correct man for the job, so to speak.

 

 

Another thing I've been wondering about is something that biologists sometimes call the "sneaky fucker" theory. A decent number of the children produced by "dominant male" breeding groups of animals, where only the dominant male is supposed to breed, aren't actually children of the dominant male. Instead, while the dominant male is off defending his claim, other males will sneak in and mate with females (often with the enthusiastic cooperation of the females). I'd be surprised if quite a bit of this didn't happen among Seekers. Even if all the Tias are driven out of a breeding group, roaming female Seekers would have ample opportunities to come into contact with Tias while they're away from hearth and home.

[Norna]

I think it's been pretty well established that a Seeker tribe is made up of numerous breeding groups. 

Yeah, but "tribe" can be used both for the prefix-tribe and "tribe" as in a particular tribe, which is probably what S-E meant (so if X'ehl Tia is born into a tribe already lead by X'hyr Nunh, they're both from the X-tribe, yet if X'ehl leaves with a bunch of women and becomes X'ehl Nunh, they will still be X-tribe, but they will also be individual tribes, I assume, anyway).

 

I've been thinking about a couple of things with regard to Seeker breeding. We know that a Tia can become a Nunh by challenging an existing Nunh, proving himself fitter, and taking that Nunh's place. It's assumed that combat plays a part of this challenge, but is it there anything else?

 

Going off-canon and into speculation for a bit, I always assumed that of the elders of whichever tribe select possible new Nunhs from available Tia (and the ones left over/those chosen but not wishing to become Nunh yet generally leaving their birth-tribe). The one tribe we have a sample of, the U-tribe, already have hunting rites of passage for everyone, so I guess they would already be proven hunters. Their Nunh is also known for his mental (according to at least one NPC) and physical prowess and is also known for his time in the Company of Heroes. Maybe there's a test of wit/wisdom/experience as well.

 

It's possible that in these more open times (with Sun/Moon crosses and more and more Miqo'te living outside of tribal and clannish groups), being a distinguished hero/adventurer/mercenary might also be taken into consideration (maybe this is why that Tia joined the Scions).

 

We do know that there is a battle/duel, but not if it is considered ceremonial and traditional, or if it is a no-holds barred, sand-kicked in eyes, blows below the belt death match.

 

On the "sneaky fucker" thing and choices for the women; Miqo'te are not lions, they have their humanity going for them. I imagine that a Tia that is generally rejected by the women might find his way to challenging the current Nunh blocked by various obstacles (if there is no Tia to gatekeep an injured/sick Nunh, I could see a particularly dominant woman insisting on "testing" the Tia), and if he wins, he'll probably be either driven out by them, or a more acceptable Tia is encouraged to beat the snot outta him (seriously, any Tia trying to take over a tribe that wants nothing to do with him IS NOT thinking ahead, and his poor judgment would probably lead to exile from the tribe he believed he'd taken over, simply on the grounds that he has no forethought and is therefore a lousy protector).

 

Of course, once a majority-approved Nunh has won, he does not have automatic rights to every woman in the tribe. It is likely that a few put up with it because they don't particularly mind this Nunh (and I wont go into my theories about Miqo'te sexuality and norms, suffice to say that even humans in our world don't need love to have sex), and a few might sneak with a Tia behind his back, but my theory is that this is considered extremely rude and insulting behavior (in this case, it is more acceptable to elope).

 

Likely, most of the women not attracted to the current Nunh either bide their time for a better Nunh, or leave, either with or without a Tia of their choice, just like how Tia who are not considered Nunh material leave for greener pastures.

 

Okay, this became a longer speculation than I intended so I'll stop now.

[C'kayah Polaali]

I think it's been pretty well established that a Seeker tribe is made up of numerous breeding groups. 

Yeah, but "tribe" can be used both for the prefix-tribe and "tribe" as in a particular tribe, which is probably what S-E meant (so if X'ehl Tia is born into a tribe already lead by X'hyr Nunh, they're both from the X-tribe, yet if X'ehl leaves with a bunch of women and becomes X'ehl Nunh, they will still be X-tribe, but they will also be individual tribes, I assume, anyway).

 

I hate that this is the case. I would much rather that there were different terms for prefix-tribe, sub-tribe and breeding group.

[LiadansWhisper]

I think it's been pretty well established that a Seeker tribe is made up of numerous breeding groups. 

Yeah, but "tribe" can be used both for the prefix-tribe and "tribe" as in a particular tribe, which is probably what S-E meant (so if X'ehl Tia is born into a tribe already lead by X'hyr Nunh, they're both from the X-tribe, yet if X'ehl leaves with a bunch of women and becomes X'ehl Nunh, they will still be X-tribe, but they will also be individual tribes, I assume, anyway).

 

I hate that this is the case. I would much rather that there were different terms for prefix-tribe, sub-tribe and breeding group.

 

"Band" would fit.  For instance, Native Americans had larger "tribal" groups that gave them their name (Lakota Sioux, Apache, Cherokee, to name a few), but many bands that were part of the greater tribe, but moved and lived separately.

[Jomoru]

after wandering around LL counting Miqote npcs and checking their eyes I find 28 Seekers 9 keepers and 2 miqote with covered eyes. 

 

There is a slight tendency towards Seekers looking like rogues and pirates, but that's only a very slight tendency and they can be found in respectable fields as well.

 

There are alot of miqote in service industry jobs(so many waitresses and prostitutes) all seekers.

 

The game generally gives a single name to Seekers but two names ot Keepers, this is not absolute but a slight trend that is broken at least once in LL. Similarly Keepers generally do not have an apostrophe in their names.

 

Now onto Uldah there are 8 miqote npcs in all of the city.  Divided evenly between the two clans. The majority seem to be adventurers there, asside from the three dancers. There are no males and none where named.

 

Gridania has a grand total of 14 Miqote 7 seeker, 6 keeper 1 masked individual using Keeper naming schemes. The Keepers generally seem to be local while the seekers seem to be adventurers there.

 

 

Based on the archery quest line there seems to have been a recent push since the Calamity for more Keepers to urbanize in Gridania where previously they had not, also Keeper archery seems to include trained animals which is not a part of the teachings one generally gets. Could this potentially mean that a future archery job that includes the training of animals might include more Keeper lore?

[shotgunbadger]

I could see them using Keepers to introduce Beastmaster.

[FreelanceWizard]

Wow, I'm late to this thread.

 

Every dev post I've been able to find regarding miqo'te is summarized and linked in this post.

 

To the best of my knowledge, other than the U tribe, there's never been a statement from SE either way on whether Seekers are patriarchal. It seems to me that's what they were trying to get at, but then there's enough waffling in the lore that I don't think the power dynamics of the "average" Seeker society can be simplified that way. Nunhs obviously hold some soft power (after all, they control who gets to bed whom in a socially acceptable manner), but they don't hold a lot of direct power. Within those guidelines, I feel a player has a lot of leeway on the "dark and squicky dial" for their character's particular band/subtribe/etc. in the territory from which they hail.

 

TBH, the reason male adventurer NPCs you see are Tia is because Nunh have a societal duty to stay in the hunting ground, breed, and probably assist in securing it (since that's how they got it in the first place; dev post). Tia, not having such a responsibility, are more free to go out and adventure.

[C'kayah Polaali]

On the "sneaky fucker" thing and choices for the women; Miqo'te are not lions, they have their humanity going for them.

 

The "sneaky fucker" theory doesn't apply only to lions (and for the record I'm not a big fan of drawing parallels between Miqo'te and any kind of cat), it's pretty common in any group of animals where a dominant male is "supposed to" have exclusive access to females: there are plenty of various ruminants, monkeys, apes, etc that exhibit this. For that matter, while human societies aren't built like this, there's still plenty of "sneaky fucker" behavior among us, all throughout history.