Your impression

[Loc Talon]

That's fine and all, but realism in a fantasy MMO setting doesn't work sometimes. Games, movies and books require us to put aside what we know is fact about the real world and suspend our belief.

 

Perhaps the gravity is 20x greater in Eorzea, perhaps the armor is heavier then real armor, perhaps the fictional races are not built for jumping, perhaps our characters all have lame knees or tore a ligament in track&field. :study:

 

This would be all great...In theory. But, again, I point out the fact that there is -already- jumping in XIV. Again, I make the reference to the Pugilist's Seismic Shock...You literally jump six feet into the air. The trailer that shows the Miqo'te leaping up onto, what looks like, a stage coach...easily 10 feet tall. This alone completelly shows that there it no reason for our characters not to be able to jump, lore wise...

 

 

There are thousands of reasons you could even make up for why your character can not jump RPwise' date=' and you don't need to be able to jump to RP effectively.[/quote']

 

I've addressed this already...

 

"Why do you need jumping to RP?"

You don't. But, I feel that it adds to immersion for your character to physically be able to jump, without an emote and have a visual representation. I can provide a list of instances where a jumping animation would benefit RP, if need be.

 

I would also like to say, I find that last part to be a poor argument in general. "You don't need this to RP?" an argument that I have heard time and time again, in reference to RPing in MMOs....The answer is..."Why do you need MMOs to RP?"

 

The truth is that we don't NEED any of the things provided in MMOs to "effectively" RP. But, there are certainly aspects that make it -easier-.

 

Why do we NEED a car to get somewhere? When we can just walk? Because, it makes it easier.

 

Why do we NEED the internet and computers for information? When we have libraries? Because it makes it easier.

 

The whole "You don't need X to RP" argument just makes no sense to me. Because, in truth, we don't need the entire MMO to "effectively RP". Hell, why don't we just toss XIV and all other MMOs to the way side and just stick to chat room and forum RP?

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I RP in MMOs for visual representation and aesthetics. If need is a factor, then we might as well take out emotes, extensive character customization, the slew of empty and abandoned locations, and the many other elements that expand on immersion and make RP easier in MMOs. Because, we don't -need- them to RP.

 

It is not a matter of whether we need it or not. It's a matter of convenience and expansion on immersion.

I certainly do not mean any offense by this and I hope you don't take it as a personal attack, because that is not my intention. My intention is a rebutle on the argument as a whole, because I've heard it SO many times and I just find it absurd.

 

As I stated above, if that's the case and point, we don't -need- the entire game to RP. Literally, there isn't one element in the game that we have to have to RP. But, there are elements that make things easier and more convenient to portray.

 

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

 

This, I completelly agree with 100%. =D

[Siben]

The game has no area where jumping is necessary for gameplay, that's why it's not in the game.

 

Is it annoying? YES, OMFG YES. I am unreasonably miffed at the lack of jumping in this game.

Do I think they should add it just because most other MMO's offer jumping? No. Not unless they're going to add in some gameplay to justify it.

 

Just my two cents.

[Satrina]

I'm also not sure, as I have not personally coded for an MMORPG, but I do know that jumping lead to a whole host of problems in WoW. Granted a lot were pvp but they were easily adapted for pve as well.

 

Being able to jump onto ledges and glitch bosses to get "Watch him die" achievement. Jumping any sort of stun in pvp completely negated the stun, locked the person in animation and let you run pretty far away. Wall climbing was another major issue they cracked down on...sadly...as I loved to wall climb into Hyjal.

 

It could be that a lot of the rocks, and other things are actually just painted on and do not actually have collision detection and you would just pass through them into oblivion (this happened a lot to me in WoW). This can be solved with creating invisible walls everywhere, but that also can result in clipping issues if a person is hugging a wall to avoid aggro.

 

I'm not sure what the seismic shock animation looks like, do you actually jump or is it a flip of some sort? They could have just been lazy and not wanted to code a jump animation. They did use a lot of motion capture for the game, but perhaps asians just don't got no ups? :cry:

 

 

Edit:Nifty thing I found when looking for how high an average person can jump:

http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/VerticalJump.html

[Siben]

I'd wager they don't want people jumping to eliminate geometry exploits, like how we used to jump through the mountain in Age of Conan to get behind Tortage and underneath the buildings...to shoot people through the floors ;D

[Midge]

Although I wish there was jumping of SOME kind, while travelling about, bunnyhopping in WOW (and other games) is extremely annoying. From a roleplaying perspective, it helps to keep me immersed if people are jumping up and down constantly.

[Loc Talon]

The game has no area where jumping is necessary for gameplay, that's why it's not in the game.

 

Is it annoying? YES, OMFG YES. I am unreasonably miffed at the lack of jumping in this game.

Do I think they should add it just because most other MMO's offer jumping? No. Not unless they're going to add in some gameplay to justify it.

 

Just my two cents.

 

As I've stated earlier, necessity is not an all encompassing dictator when it comes to game design. Some things are implemented with no "purpose" or "need" at all. Emotes, for example. Serve no purpose to gameplay what so ever. The abundance of character customization that XIV offers, although nice, adds nothing to the overall gameplay. Many games have Player Housing, which serve no purpose to overall gameplay. Most customization options serve no purpose to game play. Pure aesthetics. In short, every element that is implemented into a game does not have to serve a specific purpose. Some elements are provided for purely aesthetic reason or "just cause".

 

 

I'm also not sure, as I have not personally coded for an MMORPG, but I do know that jumping lead to a whole host of problems in WoW. Granted a lot were pvp but they were easily adapted for pve as well.

 

Being able to jump onto ledges and glitch bosses to get "Watch him die" achievement. Jumping any sort of stun in pvp completely negated the stun, locked the person in animation and let you run pretty far away. Wall climbing was another major issue they cracked down on...sadly...as I loved to wall climb into Hyjal.

 

It could be that a lot of the rocks, and other things are actually just painted on and do not actually have collision detection and you would just pass through them into oblivion (this happened a lot to me in WoW). This can be solved with creating invisible walls everywhere, but that also can result in clipping issues if a person is hugging a wall to avoid aggro.

 

I'm still not sure what you are refering to when you say "clipping". As I mentioned earlier, all clipping is, is a method used to cut down on system resources. In the Beta, right now, if you look one way...And then you immediately turn around to look behind you, you'll see players, NPCs, and other elements start to appear. -That- is clipping. While you are looking one direction, the game is omiting several elements that you cannot visually see at certain times, so that your system does not have to remember every single blade of grass that populates the world. Clipping is merely a method that determines which elements of the 3D environment are not needed for the given camera angle or view point and crops those from the rendering process.

 

I'm not sure what the seismic shock animation looks like' date=' do you actually jump or is it a flip of some sort? They could have just been lazy and not wanted to code a jump animation. They did use a lot of motion capture for the game, but perhaps asians just don't got no ups? :cry:[/quote']

 

Basically, your character crouches down and springs theirself up about six feet in the air, and then drops back down to hit the target. Nothing outstandingly special, just a jump.

 

 

Although I wish there was jumping of SOME kind' date=' while travelling about, bunnyhopping in WOW (and other games) is extremely annoying. From a roleplaying perspective, it helps to keep me immersed if people are jumping up and down constantly.[/quote']

 

The same people that like to dance naked and spam emotes at random passer-bys? If that's the case, and that argument holds true, then they should take dancing and emotes out of the games as well and the ability to manually remove pieces of our equipment as well. The point is, completelly omitting something because a certain variety of people choose to overuse and abuse an aspect isn't very logical, In my opinion. Punishing an entire community for the actions of a specific subsect?

[Siben]

As I've stated earlier, necessity is not an all encompassing dictator when it comes to game design. Some things are implemented with no "purpose" or "need" at all. Emotes, for example. Serve no purpose to gameplay what so ever. The abundance of character customization that XIV offers, although nice, adds nothing to the overall gameplay. Many games have Player Housing, which serve no purpose to overall gameplay. Most customization options serve no purpose to game play. Pure aesthetics. In short, every element that is implemented into a game does not have to serve a specific purpose. Some elements are provided for purely aesthetic reason or "just cause".

 

I think you need to put it into perspective, would you rather have them spend the time implementing jumping into the game for absolutely no reason other than "just because it's not in now" or have them spend time doing last minute bug fixes and refining the stability of the client?

 

It's obviously not a priority to them and hasn't been during the entire development cycle.

 

Player housing in some games actually does add to the gameplay. In City of Heroes you could raid other guild's bases, in Age of Conan guild built cities can be sieged as well. They're part of the gameplay experience for people who wish to participate in them, which in turn makes them want to spend more time with the product.

 

But if you're looking for jumping in your next-gen MMO I suggest you look into Guild Wars 2, GW1 didn't have it but they made it a point to announce GW2 will in fact, have jumping included. It's not too late to pre-order.

[Shamadconde]

And Siben's nerdrage ability goes up by 15 points.

[Tadir]

Clipping [in general conversation between non-developers] is when two models go through each other. It's not a system to keep down resources, it's an error.

 

 

[edited to clarify my meaning.]

[Satrina]

Emotes, for example. Serve no purpose to gameplay what so ever.

 

Actually in the context of Final Fantasy MMO they do serve a purpose, that of communicating with people who do not speak your language. I havnt tried out the chat much to see if we have the auto translate stuff from FFXI, i'm guessing we do, but emotes are another way to convey to people what is going on.

 

Many games have Player Housing, which serve no purpose to overall gameplay. Most customization options serve no purpose to game play.

 

Most games with player housing also allow you to customize the look of it with items gathered or created by the player. This in turn gives another carrot on the stick to keep people playing and serves a gameplay purpose of sorts.

[Loc Talon]

I think you need to put it into perspective, would you rather have them spend the time implementing jumping into the game for absolutely no reason other than "just because it's not in now" or have them spend time doing last minute bug fixes and refining the stability of the client?

 

It's obviously not a priority to them and hasn't been during the entire development cycle.

 

Player housing in some games actually does add to the gameplay. In City of Heroes you could raid other guild's bases, in Age of Conan guild built cities can be sieged as well. They're part of the gameplay experience for people who wish to participate in them, which in turn makes them want to spend more time with the product.

 

But if you're looking for jumping in your next-gen MMO I suggest you look into Guild Wars 2, GW1 didn't have it but they made it a point to announce GW2 will in fact, have jumping included. It's not too late to pre-order.

 

Once again, I will state what I have already mentioned several times in this thread. Jumping is something that I would -like- to see implemented. I have also stated that I would rather them fix one of the fourteen bugs and issues I find with the game right now, like adding a recipe book or a more organized inventory system or a more streamlined UI(something that doesn't require you to access a menu to stand), before they focus on jumping. I have, in no way, referenced that I feel that this should be an immediate implementation and I have already proclaimed what you feel that I need to "put into perspective", more than one time, in this thread.

 

The fact is, that my suggestion that they add jumping was picked out of a list of fourteen other issues, and quite franky, was the most insigificant "issue" on the list. I wouldn't even consider it an "issue", just something that I think they should consider adding in the future.

 

If you would like to make references to where my perspective may or may not lie, I would suggest that you should take a look at my -full- perspective, rather than a singular piece that was plucked out of the over all picture.

 

Clipping is when two models go through each other. It's not a system to keep down resources' date=' it's an error.[/quote']

 

In 3D animation terminology, it is exactly as I described it.

 

http://www.cubic.org/docs/3dclip.html

http://www.fastgraph.com/help/3D_clipping.html

 

I don't mean to sound smug, but I -do- have a degree in Digital Entertainment and Video Game Design(which included several 3D animation classes). I would hope I know what defines clipping.

 

 

Actually in the context of Final Fantasy MMO they do serve a purpose' date=' that of communicating with people who do not speak your language. I havnt tried out the chat much to see if we have the auto translate stuff from FFXI, i'm guessing we do, but emotes are another way to convey to people what is going on.[/quote']

 

But, even taking that into consideration, it still provides nothing to the overall gameplay. In that, you would be able to play the game just fine and explore all the content provided, with or without emotes.

 

Most games with player housing also allow you to customize the look of it with items gathered or created by the player. This in turn gives another carrot on the stick to keep people playing and serves a gameplay purpose of sorts.

 

I will conceed to this point. A fine point you made there, madam. Touché! Same to Siben, who also made this point. =)

[Siben]

Clipping in the context of rendering graphics and clipping in terms of gameplay are two completely different usages of the word.

 

Clipping in terms of gameplay is actually referring to a lack of proper or disabled collision detection that allows players to reach areas of the game that should be inaccessible or to access areas out of their proper order.

 

That 'clipping' is derived from the old "no-clip" codes that id Software put into the old Doom games and the like.

 

I don't mean to sound smug, but I -have- played video games for 20-some years. I would hope I know what defines 'clipping'.

[Aveline]

Once again, I will state what I have already mentioned several times in this thread. Jumping is something that I would -like- to see implemented. I have also stated that I would rather them fix one of the fourteen bugs and issues I find with the game right now, like adding a recipe book or a more organized inventory system or a more streamlined UI(something that doesn't require you to access a menu to stand), before they focus on jumping. I have, in no way, referenced that I feel that this should be an immediate implementation and I have already proclaimed what you feel that I need to "put into perspective", more than one time, in this thread.

 

The fact is, that my suggestion that they add jumping was picked out of a list of fourteen other issues, and quite franky, was the most insigificant "issue" on the list. I wouldn't even consider it an "issue", just something that I think they should consider adding in the future.

 

I agree with this. Jumping would be nice of them to include, to add to player agency and all that, but it seems like whenever someone says "You know what would be nice? Jumping." People jump (hahaha I am so clever) all over them. To me it's like if someone said to their mom, "You know what would be nice? If you did your hair long instead of short." and a bystander replied, "You don't like her hair? GET A NEW MOM!"

 

The ridiculousness of the analogy here is how ludicrous I feel people are being when they say things like, "If you want jumping so badly, go play something else." Everyone is allowed to still love a game and be critical of it. We critique because we care. There are of course, PLENTY of things wrong with this game that deserve to be thrashed to pieces by the press. Jumping is primarily a cosmetic preference by some, but it unfortunately it's the first thing to get thrown out there for pointless, circular debate.

[Tadir]

I don't mean to sound smug' date=' but I -do- have a degree in Digital Entertainment and Video Game Design(which included several 3D animation classes). I would hope I know what defines clipping. [/quote']

 

You may have the degree, but so do I. My degree is in 3d animation. I also work for a video game company, just so you know. I've been doing 3d animation for 14 years now.

 

*shrug* I do know what I'm talking about.

 

I think you're mainly talking about occlusion.

 

While the term "clipping" is generally used to mean avoiding the drawing of things outside the camera's field of view, a related technique is occlusion culling, in which polygons within the field of view are not drawn if they would be occluded by other polygons. For example, there is no need to render the polygons composing the side of a building facing away from the observer; they are all completely occluded by the front of the building. Hence the software can save significant rendering time by doing a back-face culling pass before deciding which polygons to draw.

 

I also want jumping in the game. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I want it.

 

 

[Edit: just to clarify, clipping, in it's technical sense, is what Loc was saying. It's just not how the term is generally used. I think I came across as a bit of an ass there. I apologize.]

[Chveya]

 

I don't mean to sound smug, but I -have- played video games for 20-some years. I would hope I know what defines 'clipping'.

 

 

I missed you, you snarky bastard.

 

 

 

(Hijack over, return to your regularly scheduled madness.)

[Loc Talon]

Clipping in the context of rendering graphics and clipping in terms of gameplay are two completely different usages of the word.

Clipping in terms of gameplay is actually referring to a lack of proper or disabled collision detection that allows players to reach areas of the game that should be inaccessible or to access areas out of their proper order.

That 'clipping' is derived from the old "no-clip" codes that id Software put into the old Doom games and the like.

I don't mean to sound smug, but I -have- played video games for 20-some years. I would hope I know what defines 'clipping'.

 

Thank you for clearing that up for me. That was all I was looking for, is clarificatin as to what was being referenced when the term "clipping" was used in that context. Because, the "clipping" that I am familiar with is something totally different.

 

You may have the degree, but so do I. My degree is in 3d animation. I also work for a video game company, just so you know. I've been doing 3d animation for 14 years now.

*shrug* I do know what I'm talking about.

I think you're mainly talking about occlusion.

I also want jumping in the game. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I want it.

[Edit: just to clarify, clipping, in it's technical sense, is what Loc was saying. It's just not how the term is generally used. I think I came across as a bit of an ass there. I apologize.]

 

Oh no. I was not, by any means, trying to insinuate that you didn't know what you were talking about. I suppose I could have worded my response a bit better, in that regard. I was merely stating that clipping -is- a system to keep down resources. Admittedly, the context that is being taken in this discussion is a reference that I'm unfamiliar with. Learn something new everyday, I guess!

 

But, no. I was not trying to insult your intelligence at all. Sorry if it came off that way.

 

I guess, "clipping" is one of those terms that has several different meanings. "Clipping" in sound recording is when the frequencies of the recorded sounds peak the 0 db threshold, for example.

 

I agree with this. Jumping would be nice of them to include, to add to player agency and all that, but it seems like whenever someone says "You know what would be nice? Jumping." People jump (hahaha I am so clever) all over them. To me it's like if someone said to their mom, "You know what would be nice? If you did your hair long instead of short." and a bystander replied, "You don't like her hair? GET A NEW MOM!"

The ridiculousness of the analogy here is how ludicrous I feel people are being when they say things like, "If you want jumping so badly, go play something else." Everyone is allowed to still love a game and be critical of it. We critique because we care. There are of course, PLENTY of things wrong with this game that deserve to be thrashed to pieces by the press. Jumping is primarily a cosmetic preference by some, but it unfortunately it's the first thing to get thrown out there for pointless, circular debate.

 

I could not have said this better myself. I especially liked the Mom analogy. ! And yes, I do wish that one of the more relevant issues were picked out for debate.

[Satisiun]

Pic related.

 

 

 

 

Couldn't help myself. After I made my first entry that basically started the ball rolling on this issue, I saw others had already stepped in on both sides and figured I'd sit back with some popcorn. :joker:

[Tyriont]

Newflash!

 

In response to popular demand, SE have decided to implement a jump mechanic - but only for characters created using darker skintones.

 

Because white Elezen can't jump.

[Tadir]

*Forehead smack*

[Tyriont]

As long as this discussion has been going, nobody had made that lame-ass joke.

 

It had to be done.

[Loc Talon]

Satisiun...

 

That comic was...EPIC!

 

Pure win.

[Siben]

 

I don't mean to sound smug, but I -have- played video games for 20-some years. I would hope I know what defines 'clipping'.

 

 

I missed you, you snarky bastard.

 

 

 

(Hijack over, return to your regularly scheduled madness.)

 

Always nice to meet a fan ;P <3

 

Also, I nominate Satisiun for "best use of an actually relevant image macro"

[Shamadconde]

Second.

[Chveya]

 

I don't mean to sound smug, but I -have- played video games for 20-some years. I would hope I know what defines 'clipping'.

 

 

I missed you, you snarky bastard.

 

 

 

(Hijack over, return to your regularly scheduled madness.)

 

Always nice to meet a fan ;P <3

 

 

Oh sure, I can feel the love from here. Here, hold still while I fill this water balloon.

[berdyne]

Well sadly the game is out looks pretty and itâs not different from the beta, what a bummer I was hoping this game would be good. But no you have to live off guild leveâs for your quests or wander killings. And have fun hunting down armor or weapons.