1

[Kage]

Since most all of the RP I've done has been my being introduced to it, if I were ever to walk up I would try to send a tell or /say (( )) what my intentions may be. Otherwise I wouldn't tell someone that this is how it will be done when it's over someone else's character without some sort of compromise that we could both decide worked for us. I don't want anyone to tell me that X and Y will be done to my character and I'm sure others would feel the same.

 

Edit: Speaking of the range of /say, I've overheard RP through the doors while standing sort of in the middle of Quicksand. That's a little unreasonable too. The range of /say is a little ridiculous sometimes because in my mind that sort of range is usually a shout or raised voice

[Val]

I'm personally more of a free form RPer. In my opinion, if my characters are ignorant enough to talk about these things in public, then they deserve to be caught if they are caught. Val would never openly discuss sensitive information like that, especially talking about running around and killing someone or something like that in the midst of the city.

 

That being said, I'm not saying you shouldn't do what others have suggested. After all, it's your story. I just don't quite see the point of RPing publicly when someone isn't allowing other people to walk up and freely effect the roleplay going on.

 

A small logistical problem with this, the distance you can hear /say at in this game is quite large. And most of the time incredibly unrealistic. For example you could be in the middle of the Quicksand, with 50 people in the room all talking, and you can hear /say from across the room. Clearly that would be impossible to hear in a normal setting. In an actual crowded bar, you can't hear conversations 3 or 4 stools down, let alone ones occurring on tables across the room.

 

Add on to that the fact that volumes differ, and that voice is variable. What if someone says at the start of the conversation, "/em speaks in a low, quiet voice" someone 10-15 feet away shouldn't be able to hear you.

 

I have zero problem with the fact that the person confronted us. What I will say though is it's way more complicated than if /say shows up on your screen then your character can hear it.

 

Oh I TOTALLY agree with that. If my character's across the room from someone, even though I can SEE what they're saying, I won't assume that Val can hear it, depending on how packed the place is at the time and whether or not they made effort to keep their voice low. 

 

Again, I agree with you entirely =) And a lot of times I don't allow Val to interact with others because he's too focused on something else and doesn't quite hear what's being said to him.

 

Also, it's always annoyed me when Val says something and someone on the other side of the wall hears it, walks around and inside the building, and comments on it.

[FreelanceWizard]

The overall question is really about what rights does a walk up RPer have, and what responsibilities do they have to the person they are walking up to.

 

IMO, they have the right to RP with you if you're in a public locale (and if you're in a notably public location and RPing a private scene, you're being bad), and the responsibility to request your consent if they intend to do anything more than just talk. Of course, in my mind, those are the same rules that everyone should play by, whether they're my best friend or a random RPer. The why is simple: no one can actually do anything to your character without your consent, and you can always leave if you disagree with how a scene is going. So, in addition to being polite and respectful, asking for consent is the only way to ensure that what you want to have happen in a scene will actually happen.

 

Does that mean I don't think a character should be able to walk up and threaten (or attempt) arrest if you're discussing criminal activities publicly? Certainly not. In my mind, if you RP in a clearly public area, you need to be doing it in /say and you need to accept that others may get involved. However, before anyone tries to actually impact your character with anything other than words, they do need to request your consent beforehand.

[Renault Delumiere]

As a villain RPer myself, I've gotta say I agree with Augustine. You dug your own grave on this one. If your character is stupid enough to speak about illegal activities just outside the Quicksand, in not enough of a code that it could be considered anything else, you've fucked up IC and probably deserve the consequences.

 

If you don't want others to get involved, just /em that you are whispering or something, then speak in /tell or /p.

 

Also, the Immortal Flames can't arrest you, that's the Brass Blades' work.

 

SO HAH

[Gharen]

It's been said for the most part, but inserting yourself into someone's RP, is one thing. Imposing your will upon another character in such away that it affects them permanently (i.e. Death) or in ways that make you feel uncomfortable without their consent is god-moding.

 

Going to use Val as an example =P

 

"Gharen Wolfsong throws a left hook, the punch lands firmly on Val Nunh's nose with a satisfying crunch, breaking it."

 

This is an example of me imposing my will upon Val's Character in a couple of ways. I've decided that I've hit him, taking away his ability to dictate whether his character dodges or not and second I've decided for him that I've broken his nose.

 

So by taking away your choice in the matter, this individual was imposing their will upon you and the individual with you, while things worked out in the end you have the right to say "No."

 

Communication and permission is key.

[Val]

It's been said for the most part, but inserting yourself into someone's RP, is one thing. Imposing your will upon another character in such away that it affects them permanently (i.e. Death) or in ways that make you feel uncomfortable without their consent is god-moding.

 

Going to use Val as an example =P

 

"Gharen Wolfsong throws a left hook, the punch lands firmly on Val Nunh's nose with a satisfying crunch, breaking it."

 

This is an example of me imposing my will upon Val's Character in a couple of ways. I've decided that I've hit him, taking away his ability to dictate whether his character dodges or not and second I've decided for him that I've broken his nose.

 

So by taking away your choice in the matter, this individual was imposing their will upon you and the individual with you, while things worked out in the end you have the right to say "No."

 

Communication and permission is key.

 

Gee, thanks Gharen!

 

Aside from Val getting knocked out, I will say I thoroughly agree with it. And yes, one certainly should have attempted to arrest rather than just arrest you. Granted, after talking in public about it, I'd imagine the arrest would have been attempted and your character would have tried to run/escape or something. 

 

I just can't really fathom two characters talking about such things in public, even in a hushed voice or tone, and not expect someone to overhear or react. Yeah, he probably should have asked before moving in to do it, but.. some people come from different backgrounds. Back in other games, people Roleplayed militant guilds that would police streets and would often attack or try to stop individuals that were doing wrong. After all, all of our characters create a living, breathing world for us to interact and immerse ourselves in. Not expecting to be reprimanded when speaking about such things in public kinda breaks that immersion. 

 

If an evil guild or group is going to do evil things and don't want people to ever know about or catch them, why RP in game in the first place? Same goes for a mercenary that does illegal things and whatnot. Why even RP in game when you aren't willing to allow the character to receive the consequences for his actions?

[C'kayah Polaali]

As a villain RPer myself, I've gotta say I agree with Augustine. You dug your own grave on this one. If your character is stupid enough to speak about illegal activities just outside the Quicksand, in not enough of a code that it could be considered anything else, you've fucked up IC and probably deserve the consequences.

Just as a point of correction:

 

C'kayah admitted to breaking the law, and I'm fine with all the consequences that came out of that (including his death at the hands of a couple of overzealous Flames).

 

Natalie's character was fighting with him when the same overzealous Flames arrested her. Her issue with this whole thing is that she was effectively asked to surrender agency of her character because of that. That's really the sole point of contention here.

[C'kayah Polaali]

I just can't really fathom two characters talking about such things in public, even in a hushed voice or tone, and not expect someone to overhear or react. 

Again, the whole reason I RPed this in /say instead of /tell was so that people could react. The reaction of the other players isn't an issue here.

[Val]

I just can't really fathom two characters talking about such things in public, even in a hushed voice or tone, and not expect someone to overhear or react. 

Again, the whole reason I RPed this in /say instead of /tell was so that people could react. The reaction of the other players isn't an issue here.

 

Oh, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was accusing either of you of that! I was just making a statement =)

 

In those times when someone was jailed, usually they were broken out or escaped or whatever in a few days time, depending. It also makes for entertaining RP and character development! After, she hadn't actually COMMITTED a crime from what I could tell. She was in the midst of inner turmoil about making an either ethical or unethical choice. That alone could take the RP quite far!

[Renault Delumiere]

As a villain RPer myself, I've gotta say I agree with Augustine. You dug your own grave on this one. If your character is stupid enough to speak about illegal activities just outside the Quicksand, in not enough of a code that it could be considered anything else, you've fucked up IC and probably deserve the consequences.

Just as a point of correction:

 

C'kayah admitted to breaking the law, and I'm fine with all the consequences that came out of that (including his death at the hands of a couple of overzealous Flames).

 

Natalie's character was fighting with him when the same overzealous Flames arrested her. Her issue with this whole thing is that she was effectively asked to surrender agency of her character because of that. That's really the sole point of contention here.

 

 

You guys made your own decisions. Natalie could have ran. She LET herself be god-modded in this situation. Also, know your IC rights! Immortal Flames RPers can't arrest you!

 

You could get a Brass Blade involved on this and have the Flames RPer stripped down and beaten for over stepping their boundaries. If you guys need help with this, let me know...

 

Also, isn't Natalie a Sultansworn? She could have flaunted that to the Flamer and they would have turned tail and ran away. Sultansworn are more revered in Ul'dah than a lowly Flames donkey!

[Syl Souther]

As a villain RPer myself, I've gotta say I agree with Augustine. You dug your own grave on this one. If your character is stupid enough to speak about illegal activities just outside the Quicksand, in not enough of a code that it could be considered anything else, you've fucked up IC and probably deserve the consequences.

Just as a point of correction:

 

C'kayah admitted to breaking the law, and I'm fine with all the consequences that came out of that (including his death at the hands of a couple of overzealous Flames).

 

Natalie's character was fighting with him when the same overzealous Flames arrested her. Her issue with this whole thing is that she was effectively asked to surrender agency of her character because of that. That's really the sole point of contention here.

 

 

You guys made your own decisions. Natalie could have ran. She LET herself be god-modded in this situation. Also, know your IC rights! Immortal Flames RPers can't arrest you!

 

You could get a Brass Blade involved on this and have the Flames RPer stripped down and beaten for over stepping their boundaries. If you guys need help with this, let me know...

 

I want in on this...

 

By the way, I had some hilarious RP with one of the Flames after I came back to "help" Natalie as a witness. The Flame ARRESTED me. I not-so-happily went along with it. He took me back to the office and grilled me on my participation on the incident. He thought my character had attacked C'kayah and friends! I went with it. An Augustine came by to help me craft a prostitute's alibi and I walked out short a handful of gil.

 

It was awesome.

[111]

I want in on this...

 

By the way, I had some hilarious RP with one of the Flames after I came back to "help" Natalie as a witness. The Flame ARRESTED me. I not-so-happily went along with it. He took me back to the office and grilled me on my participation on the incident. He thought my character had attacked C'kayah and friends! I went with it. An Augustine came by to help me craft a prostitute's alibi and I walked out short a handful of gil.

 

It was awesome.

 

That's what you get for being a false witness!

[Renee Becquerel]

I think there's a couple separate issues coming into play at once here.

 

First, there is, quite plainly, the matter of just what public RP and and what it entails.  Simply and obviously, it's RP you do in public, and I think reserving certain "rights" for yourself as a roleplayer you don't extend to other people is, at best, a lapse in judgement.

 

Just like in real life, if you're doing something in public, people get to do other things in public too, including responding to what you're doing.  This is doubly true for criminal acts.  If someone is doing something they should not be doing in an overt, public way, then it shouldn't really come as any kind of surprise when someone tries to stop them.

 

If you as a roleplayer don't want that to happen, then the onus is on you as the creator of that scene to explain to other people that those other people are not allowed to publicly interact unless it is in a way that meets your strict approval.  If you don't want to deal with that, then you need to take it into a private space.

 

Second, and it's something I think people need to accept as a matter of the social contract, is the idea that IC actions should result in IC consequences.  If your character does something sufficiently high-profile in public, like admitting to being a dangerous criminal, then what happens next is and arguably should be up for grabs.  If you, as a roleplayer, don't want your character to suffer consequences for their actions, then you should not make those actions public.

 

 

At the same time, if your character is going to respond to a public situation with drastic action then you should, as a matter of courtesy, clear that with your fellow roleplayers.

 

Honestly, to put it plainly, if your character is going to be a villain, a criminal, or otherwise a bad guy, and you don't want your character to suffer the consequences of their actions, then you, as a the person in control of that character, need to keep those actions away out of the spotlight.

[Syl Souther]

I want in on this...

 

By the way, I had some hilarious RP with one of the Flames after I came back to "help" Natalie as a witness. The Flame ARRESTED me. I not-so-happily went along with it. He took me back to the office and grilled me on my participation on the incident. He thought my character had attacked C'kayah and friends! I went with it. An Augustine came by to help me craft a prostitute's alibi and I walked out short a handful of gil.

 

It was awesome.

 

That's what you get for being a false witness!

 

I am the best false witness.

[111]

You guys made your own decisions. Natalie could have ran. She LET herself be god-modded in this situation. Also, know your IC rights! Immortal Flames RPers can't arrest you!

 

You could get a Brass Blade involved on this and have the Flames RPer stripped down and beaten for over stepping their boundaries. If you guys need help with this, let me know...

 

Also, isn't Natalie a Sultansworn? She could have flaunted that to the Flamer and they would have turned tail and ran away. Sultansworn are more revered in Ul'dah than a lowly Flames donkey!

 

I think you make a good point here, I let the situation go on way to long. If I had communicated with the player earlier about some of these things we could have avoided the big misunderstanding at the end. There were a lot of things I went along with because I assumed the other player's was thinking along the same lines as me... but that turned out not to be the case.

[Aldotsk]

No one's perfect. Everyone makes mistakes and also they have different opinions and taste and thoughts. It's best to let each other know about it before hand, negotiate and understand by communicating.

[Val]

I think there's a couple separate issues coming into play at once here.

 

First, there is, quite plainly, the matter of just what public RP and and what it entails.  Simply and obviously, it's RP you do in public, and I think reserving certain "rights" for yourself as a roleplayer you don't extend to other people is, at best, a lapse in judgement.

 

Just like in real life, if you're doing something in public, people get to do other things in public too, including responding to what you're doing.  This is doubly true for criminal acts.  If someone is doing something they should not be doing in an overt, public way, then it shouldn't really come as any kind of surprise when someone tries to stop them.

 

If you as a roleplayer don't want that to happen, then the onus is on you as the creator of that scene to explain to other people that those other people are not allowed to publicly interact unless it is in a way that meets your strict approval.  If you don't want to deal with that, then you need to take it into a private space.

 

Second, and it's something I think people need to accept as a matter of the social contract, is the idea that IC actions should result in IC consequences.  If your character does something sufficiently high-profile in public, like admitting to being a dangerous criminal, then what happens next is and arguably should be up for grabs.  If you, as a roleplayer, don't want your character to suffer consequences for their actions, then you should not make those actions public.

 

 

At the same time, if your character is going to respond to a public situation with drastic action then you should, as a matter of courtesy, clear that with your fellow roleplayers.

 

Honestly, to put it plainly, if your character is going to be a villain, a criminal, or otherwise a bad guy, and you don't want your character to suffer the consequences of their actions, then you, as a the person in control of that character, need to keep those actions away out of the spotlight.

 

Pretty much every bit of this. It's how I feel 100%.

To add to this: I don't think said villains should be made if the person playing them isn't willing to own up to their actions ICly. Otherwise, what's the fun? I can see not wanting to get caught/wanting to be able to get away sometimes, but living a dangerous lifestyle is just that. One can't expect to run around thieving and killing and NOT have SOMETHING happen!

 

Again, not saying anyone here did it! Just saying that's how I feel one should look at villains and others they've created when stepping outside the law.

[Naunet]

I would agree about this... but the problem was that it was happening at like 1:15am. The other character said essentially, well you should be in jail at least a few hours. If it was like 8pm I wouldn't care, I'd have plenty of time to figure out what is going on, we could discuss it. However they wanted to end it with my character in jail, which in order to respect, I would have to refrain from any other RP stuff until they decided to log on and finish the RP tomorrow. I didn't feel like doing that, and I wanted to resolve the issue to some degree before I went to bed so I wouldn't have to sit around all day tomorrow waiting to see if this other person would actually log on.

 

Fair enough. I'd probably be more liable to fluid time the whole thing and have "a few hours" just happen tomorrow. But I'm extremely amenable to pretty much anything happening in RP at all times. Has gotten some characters in rather awkward/uncomfortable/unfortunate/troublesome positions at times, but... meh. I work with it.

[111]

On a side note, because I think people might be curious as to what the fuck I'm actually talking about with this whole thing, here is a text log from me explaining the story to someone else. It is pretty much 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge, and the OOC disagreement occurred when I was carried off to jail and managed to make my way off.

 

The Log is here

 

Unfortunately I don't have a log of the actual events, I forgot to save it, but this should help give an idea to the curious. Please don't use this to nitpick details though.

[Renee Becquerel]

On a side note, because I think people might be curious as to what the fuck I'm actually talking about with this whole thing, here is a text log from me explaining the story to someone else. It is pretty much 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge, and the OOC disagreement occurred when I was carried off to jail and managed to make my way off.

 

The Log is here

 

Unfortunately I don't have a log of the actual events, I forgot to save it, but this should help give an idea to the curious. Please don't use this to nitpick details though.

Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

 

It is entirely possibly this is just me, but focusing on the specifics of who did what as opposed to what lead to what happened isn't so much trying to actually make this a learning experience but instead making someone other than you into the bad guy so you can feel absolved of your part in it.

 

Personally, I don't really think this is a situation that needs to be dug so deep, or else it has the scent of calling someone out. It seems a little tasteless.

[111]

On a side note, because I think people might be curious as to what the fuck I'm actually talking about with this whole thing, here is a text log from me explaining the story to someone else. It is pretty much 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge, and the OOC disagreement occurred when I was carried off to jail and managed to make my way off.

 

The Log is here

 

Unfortunately I don't have a log of the actual events, I forgot to save it, but this should help give an idea to the curious. Please don't use this to nitpick details though.

Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

 

It is entirely possibly this is just me, but focusing on the specifics of who did what as opposed to what lead to what happened isn't so much trying to actually make this a learning experience but instead making someone other than you into the bad guy so you can feel absolved of your part in it.

 

Personally, I don't really think this is a situation that needs to be dug so deep, or else it has the scent of calling someone out. It seems a little tasteless.

 

All the people whose names are mentioned in that Chat log have no problem with it, I didn't refer to the other person, I just referred to them as the flame. I don't have any problem with what the person did, I ended up resolving it, but I wanted to get peoples opinions on how to resolve it better in the future. I got lots of good info, so I think the thread was useful. However quite a few people seemed to be misunderstanding what happened, and I thought the scene itself was cool, so I posted a summary.

 

I didn't intend to call the person out, and as I've said several times, I thought they made the whole situation much more dramatic and interesting. It was only at that one point our view of the situation veered off, which I think was unfortunate.

 

If people think this is supposed to be a call out (I didn't intend it to be) then I can delete that link and close the thread. It's just that 3-4 people in this thread were actually there, so I thought that the people who weren't might like an Idea about what the rest of use were talking about.

 

Edit: I just also want to say that after reading the thread I realize I was just as much at fault as the other person was, and I need to be proactive about these sort of things in the future, and think more about the settings I RP in.

[Ildur]

Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

 

You are either referencing another log (which I haven't seen) or you did not click on that link. It's just a copy paste of text which, as far as I can tell, has the names of two characters edited out and replaced. There's no screenshot there.

 

While I do think the log wasn't particulary pertinent to the overall discussion (because it's an IC retelling of the event and not the event itself), I see it as a "This is what happened" more than a "And (Someone Else) was to blame for all of this!". It is important to know the specifics of the situation and how everyone acted to learn anything from it. If you have no details, how can you induct from it and come to a conclusion?

 

Though, again, what happened seemed clear enough before, so I can understand why you'd think Natalie is trying to place blame instead of just be as clear as possible about the whole thing.

[Gabineaux]

Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

 

You are either referencing another log (which I haven't seen) or you did not click on that link. It's just a copy paste of text which, as far as I can tell, has the names of two characters edited out and replaced. There's no screenshot there.

 

While I do think the log wasn't particulary pertinent to the overall discussion (because it's an IC retelling of the event and not the event itself), I see it as a "This is what happened" more than a "And (Someone Else) was to blame for all of this!". It is important to know the specifics of the situation and how everyone acted to learn anything from it. If you have no details, how can you induct from it and come to a conclusion?

 

Though, again, what happened seemed clear enough before, so I can understand why you'd think Natalie is trying to place blame instead of just be as clear as possible about the whole thing.

 

I can see the name, replied to, in character.. :tonberry:

[Kage]

Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

 

You are either referencing another log (which I haven't seen) or you did not click on that link. It's just a copy paste of text which, as far as I can tell, has the names of two characters edited out and replaced. There's no screenshot there.

 

While I do think the log wasn't particulary pertinent to the overall discussion (because it's an IC retelling of the event and not the event itself), I see it as a "This is what happened" more than a "And (Someone Else) was to blame for all of this!". It is important to know the specifics of the situation and how everyone acted to learn anything from it. If you have no details, how can you induct from it and come to a conclusion?

 

Though, again, what happened seemed clear enough before, so I can understand why you'd think Natalie is trying to place blame instead of just be as clear as possible about the whole thing.

 

I can see the name, replied to, in character.. :tonberry:

Not to derail this more into a blame type of situation but I see 3 names who are in this thread and not the one whose privacy would be most "affected" by such a log? Unless I missed it or you are saying that the pastebin was edited.

[111]

I can see the name, replied to, in character.. :tonberry:

 

Whoops sorry, If it counts that's just the person I was talking to, and I cleared it with her before I posted it, but I thought I removed her name anyway (Damn you textpad find and replace). The names mentioned besides Kayah and I weren't actually there.

 

Again I honestly just thought it was a cool situation and wanted to give the summary. I realize that most of what I was complaining about could have been avoided if I had through things more.