Kylin

As of right now, SE has confirmed twelve "main" gods. Whether this list includes the familiar avatars depicted in the pictures is still up for debate. My guess is that the "Twelve" will be separate beings that will be more on par with Vana'diel's Altana and Promathia though in the sense that they'd have no physical representation of themselves in the game. So far, they've named two of the Twelve: Llymlaen, Goddess of Navigation and Nymeia, Goddess of Fate. Personally, I'm eagerly waiting to hear more about the other 10, even if just their names. Until I hear more, I have no idea where my main character will go in terms of religion.

I believe our very own Rhio is responsible for that link. Also, I think the "dead link" part is only a reference to the fact that the majority of players aren't interested in RP. It's a sad reality. However, I'm glad we've got one site backing us like that. Hopefully we can get other major sites to somehow link us.

Rather than make a new thread entirely, I'll just post this quick message here instead. I've been hearing that people are asking "what now?" Now that our structure is in place, you guys can bring your own big discussions here for our etiquette section. Every guide we create will require a discussion and vote just like this, though I doubt the topics will be as wildly popular as this one was. The current etiquette categories on the main site are good places to start, though not all of them may need a guide and other stuff may be added over time. Just try to not to start more than 1-2 major discussions for each topic at once. Not only do we not want to overwhelm everyone, but we also want to spread out everything over these next few long months leading up to FF14's launch. Otherwise, we may run out of things to talk about before the game is even here

Poll is closed. Charter is now posted on the main site here: http://ff14-rp.webs.com/charter.htm We managed to increase voter turnout to about 37% from the 25% it was sitting at, which is a bit better. I personally was hoping for 50% but 37 isn't too bad I suppose. Chances are we'll end up reexamining this right before the game launches and make any necessary tweaks then.

Bump. Only about 2 days left until the poll closes. It's obviously going to pass. I was hoping for a larger voter turnout on our first major issue though, if only for the symbolism behind it. 15/67 isn't really a lot >.>. But if we don't get any additional votes, we'll just have to live with it.

Okay guys. Time for the official vote. Please cast your ballot on the above poll of whether you want to accept this as is or reject it and discuss it anew. If it is accepted as is, it will be placed on the main site and linked via these forums. If rejected, we will have to go through another round of discussions and repeat the process. Please keep in mind that it can be modified later down the line in the same manner as now. We will probably reexamine the entire thing right before the game launches. But for now, we need something to help define us. ======================================== RPC -- Who are we? * = The word âguildâ will be replaced with whatever SE ends up calling them. I. Definition: The Roleplaying Coalition (RPC) is a group of roleplayers for the Final Fantasy XIV MMORPG. The coalition consists of various roleplay guilds*, supporters of roleplay, and freelance roleplayers. All of these groups are committed to making a prosperous roleplay community in the world of Hydaelyn. II. Structure: The RPC is comprised of various guilds*. Each group is allowed to select up to 2 representatives for the RPC who will in turn serve on the RPC Council. Guilds* may select these individuals any way they wish. These representatives will serve as the face of the RPC and provide general updates of their group every few months or so. Guilds* may replace their own representatives at any time and through any methods they deem appropriate. The RPC must be notified of this change immediately via the Assembly Room, although specific details as to why they are replaced are not necessary. The RPC Council may call a meeting of all representatives at any time if representatives from at least two different guilds* call for the meeting. These meetings are meant primarily to determine if an issue should be brought before the entire RPC or remain as a guild* only concern. If anything is brought to the entire RPC, a public discussion must be held on the matter and then a public vote regarding the RPCâs official stance will be held. III. Purposes: A) To provide a central hub for all FFXIV roleplayers to gather, communicate, and share with one another. The RPC provides an outlet for roleplayers and acts as a resource for lore, character info, and other RP related needs. B) To provide a central location for roleplay guild* advertisement. All member guilds will be advertised on the main site and have further information compiled on the forums regarding their rules, structure, and other important information. C) To select a designated roleplaying server. This server will be voted on by all coalition members upon receiving a server list. In the event that SE designates an official RP server, this vote will not be necessary unless more than one such server is designated. This particular mission statement will be removed upon getting ourselves organized on the designated server. D) To create and advertise cross-guild* and/or public roleplay related events. Each event will follow the rules set forth by the event organizers. These rules will be organized in a central location on the forums for easy access. E) To create and maintain etiquette for roleplaying in Hydaelyn. This etiquette is not enforced in any way and is meant to be more of a guide for all roleplayers to consider. All of these guides will be discussed and voted on by the RPC before being placed on the main site. F) To act as a mediator in guild* conflict only when absolutely necessary for the continuation of the overall roleplay community. If the RPC representatives deem it necessary by majority vote, the issue in question can be brought up for public discussion and then a public vote. Generally, all guilds* are asked to handle conflicts between one another with each other rather than bringing it to the RPC. If this conflict begins to encroach the entire roleplay community in a negative fashion, the RPC may have to step in for the sake of the communityâs well being. Extreme cases of cross-guild griefing, harassment, godmode, and so on may warrant RPC intervention. The process for handling the above is as follows: First, at least two representatives from two different guilds must approach the rest of the RPC Council. They will then discuss the issue and whether it warrants RPC intervention or not. If it does not, it will be dropped there. If the Council does agree to RPC intervention, the issue will be brought to the general RPC public, discussed, and ultimately voted on. The length of time and number of votes required to take the issue to the public will be decided on a case-by-case basis, depending on the number of active RPC representatives available at the time. G) To act as a liaison between the roleplay community and the general public, as well as a liaison between the roleplay community and Square Enix. IV. Abilities: The RPC has the abilities to manage this site and the forums for the coalition. Please review the RPC Charter on the forums (Headlines) for further details on rules of posting and other concerns. The RPC also has the power to drop support of a guild* if said guild* is causing direct damage to the entire roleplay community. See III-F for further details on the process. V. Acceptance into the RPC: In order for a guild* to be accepted into the RPC, the following criteria must be met. 1. The guild* must have some form of RP element to it. 2. The guild* must consist of at least 3 members. 3. The guild* must have clearance by the RPC (such as not attempting to smear the reputation of the overall roleplay community). Freelance roleplayers and general supporters of roleplay are not subject to this criteria, though they are also expected to act in a respectful manner.

I doubt I'll preorder until we at least have a release date. I don't know why Amazon is so quick to jump the gun, especially considering a price technically hasn't even been announced.

SE has already stated there won't be any pet jobs at release (though perhaps they'll add them in future updates). Assuming smn is added in some form, I seriously hope the implementation of it is very different than in FFXI. As a 75 smn myself, I found it "underwhelming" myself. Sure I felt like a badass IC whenever I had a giant floating avatar standing behind me. But the game mechanics of it could have been a lot better. Waiting a minute between every blood pact ability was terrible and thus made the smn defined by their other abilities instead (/whm). The whole perpetuation cost thing could have been better too. I think the concept of mp draining while the avatar is out is a good concept. But it happened far too rapidly. They've stated that the summons in Hydaelyn will be much more "god-like" this time around. I'm not entirely sure what that means but it sounds like they're supposed to be a lot more powerful than Vana'diel's avatars.

There are currently 8 more sites linked below that I'd like us to get advertised on. If anyone has an account on any of these or is willing to create an account there, that would be great. I'm trying to keep constant tabs on the currently made threads and it just starts getting confusing/overwhelming when you start adding in so many different sites. Ten Ton Hammer (You need at least 5 posts here before you can even post any link to anything so hopefully someone here already has an account.) FFXIV Citadel (Smaller group in comparison to others but a group nonetheless.) FFXIV Vault Beyond Vana'diel (Same size as Citadel.) FinalFantasy14.org (Smallest community fan site listed here.) MMORPG.com Crystal Cosmo (Same size as Citadel and Beyond Vana'diel.) Final Fantasy Forums

Ramdrgn also posted it on FFXIV Base. KillingIfrit is another possibility. I thought about Blue Gartr as well but not sure if we'd be well received there since they're more endgame oriented I believe. I also created a member group on the Square Enix Members site to advertise us, though I don't expect much from there. In a few days or so, I'll also advertise us on MMORPG.com. I'm also looking at Crystal Cosmo and Final Fantasy Forums. The latter may be difficult because I think they operate differently than other community sites. In addition, they have their own base for RP operations (with lots of roleplayers from what I can tell) and it may look like we're trying to "steal them away" or something.

I've sent out all the server invites but a lot of people are really slow in getting here, perhaps because they're busy or because they lack motivation. A big FF14 site update would be helpful in getting people motivated, but of course SE is going to wait forever to do that it seems -.-.

As Mason stated, just your own linkshell forums and other forms of private contact (email, AIM). We're not public yet so we're not posting on public sites like Zam, Core, etc. The goal is to get as many RPers from Vana'diel as possible first and then reaching out to new potential RPers. A lot of the FFXI RP forums are sadly dead, making this task a bit difficult. A lot of Rpers have also since changed their emails, making it even more difficult. As I already suggested for Asura, utilizing the old Tapestry and Gauntlet boards might be beneficial. Even though nobody goes there anymore, there are a lot of old RPers registered on each that could potentially be mobilized if you email some of them. Failing an administrator's mass email, one could always send out emails (or PMs for email notification) to as many as possible. I was unable to get in touch with Titan's admin and ended up sending 30 PM's out myself for instance >.>. While we only got one Titan Rper signed up out of those 30 so far, it's still better than nothing.

Finally got around to listening to the podcast. Just listened to the part about RP as I couldn't sit through the entire hour >.>. I kinda liked what they talked about up until the whole "pausing to go to the bathroom" part. They mentioned how it's harder to do that in an MMO setting than at a D&D table setting. I strongly disagree and doubt anyone here has had any real trouble "pausing" RP in game when they need to afk for something (unless it's an extended afk or disconnect and even those can be worked around). I also disagreed with when he said that the lore already restricted his character. Lore really doesn't restrict a character that much save for preventing you from being royalty or something outlandish like that. If you want to RP being a bard and there's no bard class, you can still do it. It just takes a tad bit more creativity, which is what RPing is all about to begin with. The written article hit on a lot of great points though.

Tomorrow is the big day! I will be making a post on both Zam and Eorzeapedia probably in the morning. One of our own members is going to be making the post on the Core forums. Due to the fact that he's a staff member there, our endeavors would likely look more real and serious coming from his mouth rather than any of ours. If any of you know of any other community forums, feel free to post a link to us there starting tomorrow. In addition, feel free to change your signatures on all of these forums to provide a link to the RPC. And as Traydon stated above, word of mouth is also a crucial element to getting us out there as well. Our roster -should- start increasingly rather rapidly over the next couple weeks. If not, there's a serious problem >.>. Two weeks from now, I'm hoping to see us reach the 100 member goal, though I tend to shoot rather high in the goal department so we'll see if that happens or not. The numbers game will be semi-crucial to gaining SE's support a few months from now though so please keep that in mind. Keep in mind that new FF14 info is slated for the 28th at VanaFest (or at least some kind of FF14 "event"). Any info that comes out then may help get people more excited afterwards. Thus, if anyone can casually bump our advertising threads a day or two after then, that would be great. All we can do now is hope that the public is receptive to us. I'm tailoring my posts in a way that reaches out to hardcore and casual roleplayers alike, as well as just general RP supporters who may never actually RP themselves. Keep your fingers crossed! Edit: I also just submitted the main site url to Yahoo, Bing, and Google. It may take a few days or a few weeks for it to show up on search engines though.

I always thought the site activity went down on the weekends. At least that's what it seems like. Most people know that there isn't going to be any big info leaked or announced over the weekend and thus don't bother checking major sites. It's also that way with even our own forums I noticed. The active users over 24 hours drops considerably from Friday to Sunday and slowly starts to go back up throughout the week days.

I just want to basically get everyone up to speed and on the same page with this minor announcement. As it stands, we'll be having an official vote on defining the RPC starting on Sunday. There so far has been minimal input on the proposal I posted so I'm assuming there aren't a ton of major objections or modification requests. Regardless, I'll leave it open for discussion and examination until Sunday just in case. The voting, once opened, will extend for 7 days to give every coalition member a chance to cast their vote. I'm -assuming- it will pass but if it doesn't, we'll just redraft it, rediscuss it, and try again. So voting will start on the 7th and end on the 14th. Assuming the RPC aproves it, I'll promptly get it up on the main site probably immediately after the voting closes. The plan is then to go public on the following day (15th). What does that mean? First, it means all the ads you see here and on the main site will be gone. Second, it means that we'll start getting (hopefully) flooded with new coalition members and supporters. And third, it means we'll probably become even -more- active. This is especially true since the assembly room will be unlocked. So my question is, is anybody opposed to us going public on the 15th? Do you think it's too soon or just bad timing in general? I do know it's the day after Valentine's Day but I would assume that wouldn't be a major factor unless you think the entire gaming community will be on weekend cruises or something . Personally, I was hoping SE would update the site one more time beforehand in order to increase enthusiasm and thus increase the number of people coming in. And they still could give us an update this week or next week. However, they may wait until Vana'Fest at the end of the month. When we do go public, I plan to post on Zam, Core, and Eorzeapedia. Maybe KillingIfrit too. If there are any other sites we could utilize, please post them here. I don't have accounts on any other public gaming sites and would rather not make one just to plug our site/forums. Thus, people can speak up if they have an active account on any other sites and hopefully they can advertise us themselves. So to sum it, we're scheduled to open the floodgates on the 15th unless there are major objections. And we need to coordinate where exactly to go and who to target.

It -could- happen. Most guilds are going to try to appeal to a large audience though. Limiting one's group to "knights only" may make that a difficult task. If this was going to happen, the organization probably wouldn't be turned into an actual linkshell/guild. Organizations could help foster RP between groups but the setup of it all would be sort of tricky. It may be difficult to get enough people on board for a particular organization and then even harder to keep them an active part of it. The leader of such organizations would likely have to frequently create some missions or something for the group. For instance, perhaps a group of knights come together as a faction of Limsa-Lominsa's Knights of the Barricuda. The leader of this faction would have to keep up with regular events such as gate guard duty, hunting/training trips, tracking down criminals, etc. Like I said, it could work. It's just a matter of organizing it and keeping it going without creating an entirely separate linkshell/guild for it. And if a separate shell/guild was created, it should only be used for the organization's events as to not frequently take away members from the main RP guilds.

In order to stay on schedule, the voting will have to start today. So no time for rewording or anything like that now >.>. However, it's not set in stone and we may end up reexamining it before the game actually launches. In regards to the liaison part: That basically means that the public would come here to see where we stand on specific things, if they are interested in knowing that is. It's also a minor reference to the whole public events concept that we'll hopefully have once every month or two. Those would be open to the entire public (things like competitive sports, talent shows, etc). I do plan to -attempt- contacting SE in a variety of ways in order to persuade them to add the RPC to their "premier" site list. Nothing may come of it, but it's certainly worth trying. I won't try to do this until we're probably halfway through open beta testing. By then, we'll likely have a much better looking site to impress them and a much larger RPC roster. I would love partnering up with them for little things from time to time. I recall Zam having a pumpkin carving contest and SE awarded the winners those giant pumpkin furnishings. I could see the RPC having writing contests or something and would hope SE supports it in a similar manner. For example, I remember on Sylph when there was a contest about writing up why/how linkpearls had visual capabilities. SE never really gave that info in game so we decided to do it ourselves. It would be awesome to have these kind of little writing contests to help fill in the gaps left by SE and have them actually implement the winning idea. I may be shooting a little too high but it is worth at least trying.

I'll reword "powers" to "abilities." In regards to section III-F (the RPC intervention stuff currently being discussed), I've so far reworded it as follows: F) To act as a mediator in guild* conflict only when absolutely necessary for the continuation of the overall roleplay community. If the RPC representatives deem it necessary by majority vote, the issue in question can be brought up for public discussion and then a public vote. Generally, all guilds* are asked to handle conflicts between one another with each other rather than bringing it to the RPC. If this conflict begins to encroach the entire roleplay community in a negative fashion, the RPC may have to step in for the sake of the communityâs well being. Extreme cases of cross-guild griefing, harassment, godmode, and so on may warrant RPC intervention. The process for handling the above is as follows: First, at least two representatives from two different guilds must approach the rest of the RPC Council. They will then discuss the issue and whether it warrants RPC intervention or not. If it does not, it will be dropped there. If the Council does agree to RPC intervention, the issue will be brought to the general RPC public, discussed, and ultimately voted on. The length of time and number of votes required to take the issue to the public will be decided on a case-by-case basis, depending on the number of active RPC representatives available at the time. I'm not sure how much more I can add without completely watering down the entire thing. I think people should just put some faith in the RPC Council. Each guild is going to select their two most highly qualified members/leaders and I doubt any of them will take the position lightly. If a silly problem crops up, I'm confident they'll push it away and tell the involved parties that it's not the RPC's problem. In regards to gathering votes and the amount of time, I understand that concern (hence the "case-by-case basis" section). This is also where we'll need to trust the individual guilds to a) get in touch with their RPC rep via email, in game, or however they can reach them in order to get swift votes or b) letting the guild simply temporarily or permanently replace the rep if he/she is MIA for too long of a period.

What I had in mind was that if two or more guilds requested RPC intervention in something, the issue would first go to the RPC Council/Representatives. They would talk privately amongst one another to determine whether or not the issue should go public to the coalition or remain strictly between the guilds. So let's say we have 20 RPC representatives. At least 11 (over half) of those reps would have to agree that the issue needs the RPC intervention. If the RPC reps agree to that extent, then the issue would be posted publicly for the entire coaliton to discuss and eventually vote on. This creates a sort of filtering process that allows the RPC Council to keep certain issues away from the coalition if they feel it's silly and doesn't affect all of us. In this way, the only "power" the RPC Council would have is to determine whether a political related issue is worthy of RPC discussion or not. They couldn't actually intervene themselves, but rather allow it to go on to the next step of public debate and then a vote. Of course, reps could still take part in the debates themselves but they alone wouldn't decide anything other than whether something goes to the entire RPC or not. This filtering process would likely prevent the vast majority of guild conflicts from involving the entire RP community. That's kind of what I meant by "absolutely necessary." Perhaps I should add more details to that?

Okay, nobody has posted in a couple days. My guess is either that nobody new has anything to add or everything on their mind has already been said. Either way, we need to wrap this up before going public. As was stated by someone earlier, we can always modify/evolve over time as necessary. But here's how this will work. Generally, the creator of a major discussion thread will decide when to hold a formal vote on the matter. Depending on the issue, it may take a few days of discussion or a few weeks. We'll need to vote on this sometime early next week. Dogberry technically created this thread but I'm not going to put him in an awkward position since I separated the discussion to begin with. Thus, here is my proposal. Iâve drafted a proposal together based on the responses here. Please review it and make any necessary suggestions for additions/deletions/modifications. This will eventually go up for an official vote after some time is spent to tweak it. If it gets voted down, we'll simply have to redo the proposal and try again until it passes. ======================================== * = The word âguildâ will be replaced with whatever SE ends up calling them. RPC -- Who are we? I. Definition: The Roleplaying Coalition (RPC) is a group of roleplayers for the Final Fantasy XIV MMORPG. The coalition consists of various roleplay guilds*, supporters of roleplay, and freelance roleplayers. All of these groups are committed to making a prosperous roleplay community in the world of Hydaelyn. II. Structure: The RPC is comprised of various guilds*. Each group is allowed to select up to 2 representatives for the RPC who will in turn serve on the RPC Council (name pending). Guilds* may select these individuals any way they wish. These representatives will serve as the face of the RPC and provide general updates of their group every few months or so. RPC guilds* may replace their own representatives at any time and through any methods they deem appropriate. The RPC must be notified of this change immediately via the Assembly Room, although specific details as to why they are replaced are not necessary. The RPC Council (name pending) may call a meeting of all representatives at any time if representatives from at least two different guilds* call for the meeting. These meetings are meant primarily to determine if a political/drama related issue should be brought before the entire RPC or remain as a guild* only concern. If anything is brought to the entire RPC, a public discussion must be held on the matter and then a public vote regarding the RPCâs official stance will be held. III. Purposes (in order of importance): A) To provide a central hub for all FFXIV roleplayers to gather, communicate, and share with one another. The RPC provides an outlet for roleplayers and acts as a resource while continuing to support and foster roleplay. B) To provide a central location for guild* advertisement. All member guilds will be advertised on the main site and have further information compiled on the forums regarding their rules, structure, and other important information. C) To select a designated roleplaying server. This server will be voted on by all coalition members upon receiving a server list. In the event that SE designates an official RP server, this vote will not be necessary unless more than one such server is designated. This particular mission statement will be removed upon getting ourselves organized on the designated server. D) To create and advertise cross-guild* and/or public roleplay related events. Each event will follow the rules set forth by the event organizers. These rules will be organized in a central location on the forums for easy access. E) To create and maintain etiquette for roleplaying in Hydaelyn. This etiquette is not enforced in any way and is meant to be more of a guide for all roleplayers to consider. All of these guides will be discussed and voted on by the RPC before being placed on the main site. F) To act as a mediator in guild* conflict only when absolutely necessary for the continuation of the overall roleplay community. If the RPC representatives deem it necessary, the issue in question can be brought up for public discussion and then a public vote. Generally, all guilds* are asked to handle conflicts between one another with each other rather than bringing it to the RPC. If this conflict begins to encroach the entire roleplay community in a negative fashion, the RPC may have to step in for the sake of the communityâs well being. G) To act as a liaison between the roleplay community and the general public, as well as a liaison between the roleplay community and Square Enix. IV. Powers: The RPC has the power to manage this site and the forums for the RPC. Please review the RPC Charter on the forums for further details. The RPC also has the power to drop support of a guild* if said guild* is causing direct damage to the entire roleplay community. See III-F for further details on the process. V. Acceptance into the RPC: In order for a guild* to be accepted into the RPC, the following criteria must be met. 1. The guild* must have some form of RP element to it. 2. The guild* must consist of at least 3 members. 3. The guild* must have a clean record with the RPC (no griefing the entire RP community, etc). Freelance roleplayers and general supporters of roleplay are not subject to these criteria, though they are also expected to be respectful at all times. =============================== Regarding the structure sectionâ¦Iâm hesitant to outright say that all RPC representatives will be given forum moderation powers. Iâve seen many instances where some with such powers wreak havoc on their own forums after getting ticked off over something. They remove a bunch of posts and whatnot and just try to destroy everything out of anger. Catching them before they cause too much damage isnât always easy. Iâve watched my own linkshell forums in the past get hit in this way and Iâve watched other groups (RP and non-RP alike) get hit like this. So are there any suggestions to this dilemma? Also with the structure section, any other duties the RPC reps should have aside from general updates? Other comments/suggestions are definitely welcome. Please keep in mind that we can reevaluate all of this right before the game launches. But for now, we need to define ourselves so the public will know who we are.

Regarding the past: While I think everyone has forgiven past events (I've spoken with many privately to ensure as much), forgetting it is another thing. And we shouldn't forget. When I bring up past events as examples, I do so because history tends to repeat itself, even if the people involved are different. We should use our past experiences to learn and grow rather than simply discard them. I think Verence put it all very well. And by the looks of it, everyone seems to agree that the RPC shouldn't wield much authority at all but should reserve a tiny bit just in case things get ugly at some point. Regarding standards/etiquette, I foresee them being more of something to fall back on rather than something to enforce. By the sounds of it, most want the RPC to be more of a resource and outlet and less of a full blown organization. I think any "rules" we do put in place will likely end up non-RP related (such as how to handle drama that encompasses the entire community). I also feel I should caution everyone about using other RP coalitions to set our foundation. While it's good to look to them as models, it's ultimately imperative that we forge our own individual identity. It's sort of like comparing the US to the UK. While we have the same language and similiar cultural trends, the populations have very different needs and priorities. All of this being said, the last couple pages or so of this topic have been dominated by a small handful of coalition members. This is in turn overwhelming and intimidating others from posting. I'm personally going to remove myself from this thread for at least a couple days and encourage anyone else who's been an active voice to do the same. This gives everyone else a chance to play catch up and perhaps post something of their own. The last thing we want is an inner circle of influential people forming and setting the groundwork on everything. That would be counterproductive to the entire concept of a coalition. Let's face it. As awesome as it is to reach 5 pages on a discussion, it's only been two days. I'm sure that's a LOT to take in for a lot of people

Perhaps we shouldn't be using the term "standards" and instead use "etiquette?" I think maybe that's why people are getting the wrong impression of a RP police force. It's not like anyone would get hung out at the gallows if they deviated from the things we set forth. I love this quote I think one of the reasons I'm so pushy on this is because of Sylph's history. I've seen several RP groups sharing a server and I've seen how ugly things can get. The Starsider group is successful in part because they have a different mentality than we do. FFXI wasn't very conductive for RP and I somehow have a feeling FF14 could potentially end up similar in those regards. I'm sure we won't have any major trouble in our first 8-12 months. The beginning tends to be the "golden age" for many. But a year down the line, there's no telling whether we shrink or grow in size. And if we shrink, how competitive could things get? I guess I'm just concerned with what happens then and being prepared for when the dust finally settles. Perhaps I'm thinking way too far ahead though.