crowmeleon

I haven't posted in the forums in a really long time for this reason. I've only popped back in when people have brought up all the drama and I'm reminded it exists. I think most of it is a product not of a changing atmosphere but a growing population. I really think the only thing we all can do is assume we're all contributing to the issue a little more than we think we are.

0la5DBtOVNI Theme song of thread. Funny though I kinda saw this game in the opposite light. It's the most varied cast we've ever seen, in terms of humans. It's easy to create variety when you have 5 different species, and can just slap the same face on them all. But their facial structures, builds, and fashions are all different. Not as varied as I would like but a definite improvement over any of the other games, to me. http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130624153716/finalfantasy/images/9/9c/Final-Fantasy-XV-Main-Cast-CG.jpg

Faolan definitely has a very earthy brown, red, gold, and green color scheme. Which I realized is fittingly festive for this time of year.

This is entirely my point though. I'm not saying I'm fine with a 13 year old character doing that, but the point I'm trying to make is that it might be fine in their country, and they shouldn't be judged for doing it. Morals aside, it's not really any different than judging me for spelling colour with a u. That's just how it is in said country. 18 being a safe age shouldn't suddenly mean any younger character under that should have their player judged, it's more a case of just respecting the people around you (On both sides.) Since, even if it is fine to do it, not many others want to see a 13 year old doing that, and in most cases that applies for 18+ as well. Since all logic here obviously can be used on both sides it's not really an easy discussion. It's more about just not doing it in public. People who's age is 13 need to respect that others wouldn't want to be okay with that, and people who's age is at 18 should respect that most other places use a younger age. (This ended up far more than just a reply to you, more a summation and response to all posts thus far. Please excuse the length. ) I understand where you're coming from, but there's a difference between understanding and acknowledging cultural differences and agreeing with them. I would say the problem is that we have a genuine slippery slope if we're to judge people's actions only as they are relevant to the legal or cultural norms of their population. I don't even have to list examples because I'm sure all of you can think of one or two policies within other countries you find personally abhorrent. (And I think it's best we don't give any exact examples lest this turn into a discussion on real politics). If they choose to roleplay out such an action in game and hold it in the same light as according to their personal laws and culture, but I find the action abhorrent, I still have the right to judge them. I'm going to try and give as ludicrous an example as possible, here. On planet Xebob it is perfectly legal and culturally acceptable and encouraged to physically attack anyone who sneezes. Yes, it's ridiculous. But again, I think it's better we keep it to 'out there' (quite literally) and light-hearted examples. Now if a Xebobian roleplays such, and portrays attacking someone who sneezes and portrays it in a completely acceptable tone both IC and OOC, I am still going to find it ridiculous and disagree with it OOC. I mean we have no lore to suggest the law isn't such in Eorzea, we have no lore to suggest it is. So technically from a lore standpoint, sure, you can roleplay it as culturally canon to beat up people when they sneeze and nobody can prove you wrong. I can acknowledge that this person would roleplay this because such is the cultural or legal practices of their population. I can understand. But I do not agree with the practice, and if someone roleplays such I will judge it so. I'll level with you, because like I said, I DO get it. Even if I disagree, I understand where you're coming from. And I do acknowledge the difference between pedophilia and ephebophilia, which is the root of the majority of our disagreement here. At the end of the day 18 IS an arbitrarily chosen number. Because people develop at different rates, and despite our best attempts to pinpoint an 'average' point at which an individual is psychologically capable of consent, there will always be outliers. I'm sure we've all known a 17 year old more mature than a 19 year old. But to be fair, if 17 is okay, why not 16? There are some mature 16 year olds psychologically capable of consent, surely. Not to even start on the fact that because the character is being PLAYED by an adult, a character of any age psychologically capable of genuine consent is completely possible. So it really has to come back to blanket principle. So speaking as a global roleplay community, why 18? As others have stated, 18 is the age at which the majority* of people are not being exposed to something they consider statutory rape OOC, and is flat out illegal, even OOC, for others (It would be legally equivalent to child pornography). I can understand that such puts someone, like you, playing a 17 year old in a country where she is legally capable of consent in a hard position. But can you really tell me you wouldn't judge someone from Angola roleplaying a relationship involving a 12 year old? Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that if you play a character under 18 in a relationship with someone of age, people are going to judge you. Even if you don't rub it in their face, or involve their characters. There are varying degrees of this of course, based on many factors. No one is going to judge a relationship between a 17 year old and a 20 year old like they would a 17 year old and a 40 year old. No one is going to judge a relationship involving a 17 year old like they would judge a relationship involving a 12 year old. But at the end of the day for many people these situations are still considered statutory rape. And I'll be flat out in saying that while I would disagree with your choice and would be much more comfortable when your character was 18, I definitely wouldn't brand you as a pedophile, or even a sexual deviant for rping a 17 year old involved in a healthy relationship with someone under 25. Though I'd be much more comfortable when your character was 18, I can't truthfully say I'd hold it against you. But that's my subjective opinion and I have respect the fact that that's exactly what it is- subjective. As other people have mentioned, it doesn't mean any of these things are 'off limits' from a literary standpoint. It all comes down to intention and tone- Keeping in fair mind that these things are subjective in themselves. The strong reaction you see from those opposed is not from the material itself, it is in the opinion that this kind of roleplay is, as Pkthunda so eloquently put, "enabling of fantasies that are dangerous". This in itself could spawn an entire essay of explanation, so I'll try my best to condense the thoughts as much as possible. For some people erotic roleplay involving minors can be a completely harmless fantasy that has no consequences on children in real life. But the problem is that this is not so for ALL people involved in this kind of roleplay. And it is a matter of enabling and normalization of the content, not the content itself- So in other words, it is not synonymous with people roleplaying gratuitous violence and gore or other 'edgy' or 'dark' material, because that material does not shirk the negative effects of the actions, it revels in them. So no, it is not just a matter of finding it 'icky'. I find inflation porn 'icky' but I don't judge those who participate in it so long as everyone involved consents. And no, it is not just happening behind closed doors. Despite ALL of this hubbub I said it before and I'll say it again- No one can force anyone to do anything. No one can force you to stop doing any kind of rp. No one can stop you from judging others. But the issue is that this material is no longer only happening behind closed doors between consenting parties. The fact that this has reached the point of people playing minors having to put 'NO ERP' in their search info or wikis is just ridiculous. We don't have to list 'no beastiality' or 'no bologna porn'. If you want to get pissed off at anyone, get pissed off at other people involved in that kind of rp that have been wantonly foisting it on others, thus resulting in this thread. *I say majority because there are indeed countries in which the age of consent is 19, or 20 depending on situation (Though both countries allow sex with 15 year olds depending on gender and martial status with the other party).

I would bring it back to OOC communication. Just politely discuss the matter with the person OOC, letting them know you and your contacts have it arranged so that conflicts with Otto may result in the consequences listed. Some people love that kind of thing, so as long as they're aware they'll be happy to participate. But being completely realistic? Such actions could have repercussions as to your personal reputation depending on how the people you deal with feel about the matter. For a lot of people, depending on how you handle it, it could come off as a borderline overpowered character. In general people don't enjoy engaging in conflicts that one party has already decided the outcome of, whether directly or indirectly by design of their character. That quickly turns into people not really wanting to engage in rp at all. Not out of spite, but because they can't for risk they'll be faced with conflict with consequences they are not comfortable with. It can be a strange catch-22 in which the more powerful your character the less wiling people are to fall prey to your character's influence. It's a difficult subject I've thought about quite a bit myself when considering a similar character. Though he's far more keen on false airs and underhanded manipulation than direct conflict, I still find myself in a dilemma. Because while he's a good deal of fun for me to play, as well as other people 'in' on the dynamic or plot... I can see where were I to realistically hold other rpers to his IC influence, many of them would probably cease having fun. And at the end of the day, people want to enjoy the rp they're involved in. But NOT realistically holding others to his influence belittles that influence, so I instead have to work around it. I treat him as an alt/NPC, though, so it's even harder when it's your main. It reminds me very much of playing villains in smaller campaigns. One of the easiest follies to fall into is forgetting that the other people involved are in it to 'win' as well. So no matter how impressive your villain or elaborate their shenanigans, at the end of the day if you don't make the party feel like they've received their fair share of victory, they're going to end up dissatisfied. I really don't know Otto or the context of these conflicts so I can't offer much more advice, but I think it really comes down to polite OOC communication. And in matters like these, phrasing is everything. Good luck!

I think the primary difference between myself and those here who think there are things about RP that should be off limits - the topic at hand - is that I view RP as a writing exercise, because being a writer was my first and lasting dream even though I'm a software developer now. I look at my RP as a shared narrative that I'm crafting with other people, and the simple truth of the matter is that most other RPers are far, far closer to their RP characters personally than I am to my own. So much so that when faced with something like this they simply cannot see it as anything but the other individual indulging a personal desire and rightfully feel revulsion and react with rejection. It's perfectly reasonable to expect that most would be this way and it's kind of silly how often I forget it. Honestly it was a little too much effort on my part even posting about it. It's not even anything that happens with Rakka'li, in fact the vast majority of the people he's been involved with have been older than him - in one case ten years older! No you definitely had a few fair points, and like you said the hard part about this is that I don't think the people who are doing it inappropriately will stop any time soon. I just hope this isn't an inescapable trend. And I think it's true- A lot of the problem with discussing this topic is that it's instinct to approach it from our own minds where our portrayal of such matter could be approached from a perfectly literary context with no erotic intent. Not everyone's intentions are so noble, which even then I could tolerate (regardless of my personal opinions) if it didn't adversely affect others.

You'd think Lalas were rabbits considering how bad they can get. Fishing is the lewdest profession, and they involve lalas all the way through. Anyone who's seen my chronicled journey throughout the wonders of leveling up to 50 FSH knows fully well just how bad it gets. Most of it is centered around Lalas being randy as fuck. * * * Personal disclaimer, I know where Z's coming from with the whole ERPin' in times where it would land peeps in trouble. Or postin' some saucy fanfiction. That being said, I know a friend who'll ask for the IRL age of the person that they're about to engage in EPIC ROLE PLAY (that's what ERP stands for, right?) They refuse to disclose/are underage? Automatic fade to black. Personally, I might have done stupid shit before but I admire her for that stand and am definitely on board with doing it myself. Did the person what was about doing the nasty while underage do it before? Most likely. However, whether or not they did before has no standing on what you think about this issue, and if you accept/refuse to do so it is entirely your choice. Emphasis entirely because I feel it's necessary to state that your comfort > their ERPin'. I will repeat however that even if someone lies about their age, you are still legally culpable for whatever transpires between you. Same goes for if you sleep with someone telling you they're of age but are not. Secondly, I didn't really expect so many cases of actual minors involved in ERP... But I would warn that even if you do not participate but are made aware of the 'abuse' occurring, you are now legally implicated in the crime taking place in many places (In the same way a teacher who doesn't speak up when they find out a child is being abused is legally obligated to speak up). Now obviously reporting your friends to the authorities isn't practical, as I doubt anyone would do it- But if this kind of situation comes to light I do think you are obligated to let all parties involved know that what they are engaging in is illegal, and the risks that poses to EVERYONE involved, yourself included. At the end of the day though it's true, the people who do this will likely do it regardless of the objections of the community. Which is sad, to think that underage characters would have to specify 'no erp' as if anything otherwise is automatically fair game if you don't state it beforehand. So I think the only thing that can be done is to encourage people to forego etiquette and straight up tell these people to 'fuck off'- At ANY point in the rp, and to just retcon/blist that person. And to look out for minors in our community and make sure they are aware of the laws regarding ERP, as well as any adults who may be approaching them in that manner. My personal feelings aside I can't force anyone to do anything. So really all I can do is implore anyone participating in this roleplay act with utmost prudence in those they approach with the subject matter. Legal or no, it is a subject many people are extremely uncomfortable with, whether they are personally involved or just witness it from afar. Other weighty subjects have been brought up (Torture, murder, rape) and I think those things fall under content you should first discuss with rp partners beforehand- So sexual or even just romantic interactions involving underage characters should be handled the same way. ASK beforehand. If someone is going to reject or judge you when you ask honestly, they would have done the same when you brought it up IC. No matter how you feel about the matter, knowing many people take offense at the subject and bluntly throwing it upon every underage character regardless is rude and inconsiderate.

No, they really don't in the United States at least. We have this thing called the first ammendment that criminalizing this would violate. As for your random fact, it's because virtual images have since been criminalized, but not written words, no one is talking about images here. As someone who's spoken with localizers before, I'm afraid I have to say that you're wrong on this one. Character ages do often get changed to over 18 before a work featuring, say, high school girls can be officially released in the US. Again, this is in the case of IMAGES, not written portrayals. If it applied to writing then several of the books on my shelf would land me in jail. Seriously I cannot believe you all think that a written portrayal can be criminalized in this way. Whether two adults collude to do make it happen or one writes it on their own. I'm really kind of floored. Go pick up the first ASoIaF book in a bookstore and flip to the part where it goes on in detail on several occasions about a 13 year old Daenarys enjoying sex with Khal Drogo and tell me that two consenting adult Rpers are going to get in trouble for writing about underage encounters. You can read it right in the store! That falls under 'literary value' as previously discussed. You're going to have a hard time proving smut involving a minor on an mmo as something of 'literary value' considering the general public would consider it on the same level as sexting. The problem is that everyone who engages in this thinks that what they're writing is above that line- Whether or not it is actually true. Not to mention that the book is written by one person, not two parties. No, the chances of you being prosecuted for that alone are next to nil- But it's something that could affect you should other legal complications arise (Not even just say, unknowingly rping with a minor. It could affect your custody battle, or really any case your character is called into question) or just in everyday life (If it got out it could jeopardize your career, or your friendships, yadda yadda ) But again, that was not the purpose of this thread. We're discussing an unwanted social trend affecting rpers within our community.

Well then I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree. The lacking precedent on these issues, and the contradictions within the codes themselves as well as the wanton application of such (As in the case you mentioned which was cited in my above post) makes this a 'wild west' frontier of law. That case itself is a clear example of such. The codes that were drawn upon to decide the man's verdict were nebulous at best, leaving the decision to the discretion of the court. That case will now hold precedence over all cases that follow. These issues that will define case law have yet to arise, and no real predictions can be made to the effects those cases will have. Combine that with the inherent risk of unknowingly rping with a minor, and the devastating effects written erotica involving minors IC would have on such a case, I do not feel it is 'unfounded' in the slightest. Yes, the risk is minute, for most of us, I am not arguing that. but it is there. Not to even mention the possible non-legal repercussions of being socially branded as someone participating in erotica involving minors. EDIT: Which you yourself have acknowledged- In just playing devil's advocate you are being judged. However to call this an 'kneejerk' issue is hardly fair. Disagreeing with portrayal of minors in sexual situations in any context is a valid opinion. One I do not agree with on every level (As I can understand realistic portrayals of such with genuine literary value) but I can certainly understand when considering the broader consequences of such material. But I will repeat that that was not the point of this thread in the slightest.

That's understandable but still dangerous ground to tread. Written portrayals of underage children ARE illegal in some countries, such as Canada (SOURCE). Even within the USA the use of underage erotica has been prosecuted in the past, and is currently a hot issue regarding the definition of obscenity laws (SOURCE) and the first amendment, with both sides rallying to make an example of cases. In the past a labeled sex offender was convicted solely on the possession of graphic erotica involving children (SOURCE). While I don't like to deal in over-extended 'what-if's, combine that with a charge of sexual conduct with a minor (who lied to you about their age) and no, it is not harmless material. This is very much an issue in its infancy with little precedent to define what is or is not legal to the the legal system. What little precedent there is is either poorly enforced or changed completely. The wording in the laws on both a state and federal level is vague, often referring to child pornography as "any child pornography or depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct" (SOURCE : pg 1, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2252A. (a) (1)–(3)). Cited policy even differentiates between said "depictions" and "any visual depiction of child pornography" (SOURCE : pg 1, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2252A. (a) (5)–(6)). That is on a federal level. On a state level, things get even messier. Let me give just a few examples. CALIFORNIA: "California Penal Code § 311.11. Possession of obscene matterial depicting someone known to be younger than 18 years of age engaging in or simulating sexual conduct is a felony punishable by imprisonment for up to one year, ore a fine of not more thatn $2,500.00, or both. " (SOURCE: pg 6, California Penal Code § 311.11) Well that's rather vague, let's look at the code itself. Just how do we define "obscene material?" "(a) "Obscene matter" means matter, taken as a whole, that to the average person, applying contemporary statewide standards, appeals to the prurient interest, that, taken as a whole, depicts or describes sexual conduct in a patently offensive way, and that, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value." (SOURCE: CA Penal Codes 311 (a)) (b) "Matter" means any book, magazine, newspaper, or other printed or written material, or any picture, drawing, photograph, motion picture, or other pictorial representation, or any statue or other figure, or any recording, transcription, or mechanical, chemical, or electrical reproduction, or any other article, equipment, machine, or material. "Matter" also means live or recorded telephone messages if transmitted, disseminated, or distributed as part of a commercial transaction. (SOURCE: CA Penal Codes 311 (b)) But of course, then we have the gloriously vague "lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" (SOURCE: CA Penal Codes 311 (a)) - Under which those aforementioned books containing depictions of minors were legalized. So at what point does rp "lack seriously literary value"? And then the code contradicts itself: (h) The Legislature expresses its approval of the holding of People v. Cantrell, 7 Cal. App. 4th 523, that, for the purposes of this chapter, matter that "depicts a person under the age of 18 years personally engaging in or personally simulating sexual conduct" is limited to visual works that depict that conduct." This post is getting lengthy So just one more example, For Pensylvania: 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 6312. © Selling, distributing, disseminating, or displaying any book, photograph, film, or computer depiction of a child less than 18 years old in a prohibited sexual act or simulation is a third degree felony. 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 6312. (d) Possession of any book, picture, magazine, photograph, film, computer depiction, or any other material containing a child younger than 18 years old in a prohibited sexual act or simulation, is a third degree felony. (SOURCE: 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 6312. ©-(d)) My point here is not to prove the content legal or illegal in certain places in USA but to show what a royal clusterfuck the current laws concerning the material are, and contradictions not just within the codes themselves but in the actions of the courts. I don't like over-exaggerated 'what ifs' like I said, so chances are this will never be relevant to you. But to say that there is absolutely no risk just isn't true either. I'm sure I could go through the codes of every state, every province, and find these same inconsistencies and exploitable loopholes. Combine that with the risk of rping with a minor unknowingly and you could very well end up the poster-child for future policies regarding the issue. Well, to say 'you', isn't right. These issues are going to be roused not by those privately and prudently engaging in roleplay of genuine literary value. But those people will still be affected and held to the same policies triggered by, for lack of a better word, idiots like those harassing underage characters in game. Not even starting on the fact that laws change- And ARE changing. But at the end of the day that was not the point of this thread. The problem is that this is a theme that makes many people EXTREMELY uncomfortable, and as a community it is being normalized to the point that people playing underage characters are being regularly exposed to unwanted, unsolicited explicit advances.

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. But the problem is is that the fetishization of underage characters is being normalized and pushed on people who are not comfortable with that. "Are there people out there that are only doing this sort of thing to get their rocks off? Of course, and you'd rightfully avoid them." Is EXACTLY what we're talking about. I DO get that the subject is a valid topic in terms of literary exploration. But that is not what is happening here. And I also understand that realistically speaking, these interactions will always exist to some degree. But are we really going to say that people playing underage characters "should be making it clear that you're not interested in it, possibly by putting a message in your search info." ? After all "that's actually (unfortunately) a fairly common fetish so you really shouldn't be surprised at that at all". It's a very complicated issue but what it really boils down to is that we aren't talking about a well-thought out plot exploring coming of age and young sexuality (Which in itself is debatable) portrayed in a realistic manner. We're talking about underage characters being regularly approached and pursued sexually within the community. And people are playing purposefully sexualized minors in a fetishized (Not realistic or literary in any matter) way. Which, I guess if we're okay with that I would ask that these people at least consider that many people are extremely uncomfortable with their underage characters being sexualized.

That's understandable. But it's also not wrong for people to be uncomfortable with sexual/romantic situations involving lalafel. and we should respect an individual's preferences once they've been made clear. Also wanted to add that a friend of mine, Ja'ren, brought up the good idea of including "No romance rp" in the search info of characters trying to avoid these situations. I don't know how I feel about those kinds of measures even being necessary but considering it could result in someone having a more comfortable rp experience I think it's worth saying. Was I the only one that was like "WTFFFFFF?" in the mogmail mission involving the midlander and Miss Quicksand lala? No, I won't lie and say I didn't purse my lips when first presented with the situation. But I can't say it's wrong either. Miss Momodi was an adult. Culturally speaking lalafel are seen as adults, even though I myself cannot equate them as such physically speaking, and thus am uncomfortable with being involved with any romantic rp involving them. Not my thing, but as long as minors are not involved I really can't say anything. As long as you're rping an adult capable of consent I can't judge someone who rps romantic or sexual situations with their lalafel characters, you do you and whatnot. Somewhere someone has a very powerful infatuation with bologna. Now I don't like bologna and the idea of it as an object of sexual fixation both confuses and appalls. But as long as this person doesn't push it on me or anyone else without their consent, they can follow their mystery meat dreams as far as I'm concerned. Actually puts me in a strange position roleplay wise when it comes to a character employing dancers of all different races. IC lore-wise there's really no reason why a lalafel wouldn't be a part of that troupe. But OOC I just am not comfortable portraying it which leaves me at a loss. I skirt around the issue best I can, though.

That's understandable. But it's also not wrong for people to be uncomfortable with sexual/romantic situations involving lalafel. and we should respect an individual's preferences once they've been made clear. Also wanted to add that a friend of mine, Ja'ren, brought up the good idea of including "No romance rp" in the search info of characters trying to avoid these situations. I don't know how I feel about those kinds of measures even being necessary but considering it could result in someone having a more comfortable rp experience I think it's worth saying.

Things that shouldn't need to be said but definitely do. Also, it doesn't matter if you don't know your partner is underage or not. In the eyes of the law it's your responsibility as an adult to ensure the people you're engaging in sexual conduct with are of age. Regardless of whether or not you agree, thems the chops. Same goes for if you're both of age but writing minors in sexual situations, if one of you does such from an area where it is illegal, you both are culpable. And overall, I agree that I try my best not to judge, and understand that two consenting adults might engage in this sort of roleplay in private from places where the roleplay is 100% legal. But the degree to which I see this happening from every angle is getting a little bit ridiculous, and is extremely invasive to people who want to roleplay minor characters without worrying about them being subjected to sexual situations.

So far the two I've heard people talking about seriously are dark knight and chemist, the latter being something of tantamount rumor, despite how it piques my personal interest. I really think they should have done the healer class this patch, and then the tank/dps class at the same time. All this queue bloating would have been so much more manageable. Is is even possible to have queue times not bottlenecked by tanks or healers? I'm not sure I've ever seen it but surely it's possible, no? I doubt it will happen, just because my first thought was "Well then is the best time to level NIN, I guess", so I'm sure a lot of people are planning to do just that. I don't play dps classes so I don't know how you guys deal with the queues.